Sub upgrade opinions

[ryanosaur]

Mixing subs, ported +sealed, or 2 different ported... requires a lot of skill and expertise to make work.
If you mix subs with two different levels of output, the more powerful sub will be limited by the less powerful.

You have been given excellent advice and are continuing to fight against it.

You have a challenging room set up, with more sofa than anything. You have a large room volume.

One sub, properly set up, might make your LP sound good. True. But anybody else in the room may very well be left wanting for any bass at all.
(I have, from my experience doing the sub crawl, a known spot where all LF disappears. Now, since you have set such stringent requirements over what will and will not work for you, you may very well end up with crappy bass anywhere that matters with this approach. You cannot overpower the laws of physics with even the most powerful of subs when using just one!)

At this point, frankly, I do not know how to offer any further help!

If you take the sub you have now, and do the subwoofer crawl, you can identify places in your listening area and larger overall room that may contribute to better bass performance across your seating area. If you choose not to do this and learn how bass frequencies perform in your room, you are selling yourself short. Switching to a single sub will not help matters, especially considering the limitations you keep putting on the options, and even if the sub is 20 times more powerful. You cannot cheat the physics behind this.

If you decide to have an honest conversation about this, cool. Right now, you are asking for smaller subs and better performance, and you seem completely uninterested in actually learning how to work with the Acoustic Properties of the space you have.

Peace.

I'm out.

 

[ryanosaur]

Could the OP do the subwoofer crawl with the current PC2000 to see which location is better?

THIS!
OMFG!
I've brought this up before too!

TX asks for help but won't listen to advice. Says "can't do that," then orders new Towers! Says the subs will only fit in one or two spots, then says "not enough, but they need to be smaller..."

??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wilco
Tango
Foxtrot

 

[Space2013]

Thinking a pair of RSL Speedwoofers might work. They are ported 10in but they have a small footprint. I’m not sure they would completely pressurize the space though like ported 12in subs.

If a single large ported sub, usually that would go in the front of the room on either side. You are likely to experience localization if you don’t. That means explosions meant to come from the front of the room in a movie seem to come from the sub at the back of the room. The higher you move the crossover at the AVR the more this shows up. Usually I’m wanting higher than 80hz on a center channel. Up around 100hz or 110hz.

I was also thinking about something like the RSL Speedwoofers for your setup, but a pair may not be enough to fill your space. You could always use more than two, but I think that gets more complicated and you need a third or fourth spot to put the extra subs. I was talking to ShadyJ about the pros and cons of using three or four smaller subwoofers for my setup, but we weren’t talking about the RSL specifically.

 

[mazersteven]

LMFAO

 

[ryanosaur]

Soapbox... standing upon one.

If you want to play the game of good SQ, you have to decide on priorities.

Is your sense of aesthetics more important than excellent Sound Quality?
If aesthetics is more important, I can't help you past making suggestions that may work.

BTW, this is where the PC conversation began! It had to fit in a spot where nothing can fit!

If your sense of SQ is more important, then everybody her will gladly help you!

If it is a delicate balance, we will gladly offer advice, and only ask for some sort of integrity on your part when it comes to answering questions and telling us what you need to accomplish.

If we give you our time... all we ask is that you be in, and respect the conversation, and not run around like:

!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[txbonds]

Where have I not listened to the collective advice? I just read back through all 14 pages and while I ask a lot of questions and considered a lot of options, I took everyone's comments and advice into consideration in my decision process. Yes, I stair stepped through the process of what I could work with based on the space, the evolution of family input and other issues, but again I considered everyone's input in the process. And yes, I have to consider fit and aesthetic in addition to function and my family's opinion but that doesn't mean I don't want to find the best workable solution that tries to touch all bases.

 

[Space2013]

Where have I not listened to the collective advice? I just read back through all 14 pages and while I ask a lot of questions and considered a lot of options, I took everyone's comments and advice into consideration in my decision process. Yes, I stair stepped through the process of what I could work with based on the space, the evolution of family input and other issues, but again I considered everyone's input in the process. And yes, I have to consider fit and aesthetic in addition to function and my family's opinion but that doesn't mean I don't want to find the best workable solution that tries to touch all bases.

I find that audio research can be a challenge. You want to make sure you’ve thought of everything and that often leads to more questions than solid answers. In addition, the answer is often “it depends” as every room and setup is slightly different. Trust me, as someone who likes to gather as much information upfront as possible it is hard to not get stuck in analysis paralysis.

The other challenge is there are contingencies with every recommendation. A certain subwoofer may perform much better than another subwoofer when everything else is equal, but different placement locations are a huge factor meaning everything is not equal. Unfortunately the best location can only be determined by listening or measuring.

If this were my setup I’d try the PC2000 in a few locations (up front and in place of the end table) and see which spot sounds better. Then I’d pick the subwoofer based on that location. If it is upfront, go dual and get the best two subwoofers you can that fit in that space. If next to the couch sounds better, then get one of the big subs you were looking at. If both locations are equally good, then you can go either way and that’s when you can start comparing the big subs to two smaller subs as you’ll have determined either location works.

Everything I’ve read and been told is that location is priority number one, so I’d pick that first and then folks can help you find the best subs for that specific spot.

Ideally there would be a subwoofer that would work next to the couch AND upfront so you could have as many placement options available as possible and even go dual using both locations.

 

[txbonds]

I find that audio research can be a challenge. You want to make sure you’ve thought of everything and that often leads to more questions than solid answers. In addition, the answer is often “it depends” as every room and setup is slightly different. Trust me, as someone who likes to gather as much information upfront as possible it is hard to not get stuck in analysis paralysis.

The other challenge is there are contingencies with every recommendation. A certain subwoofer may perform much better than another subwoofer when everything else is equal, but different placement locations are a huge factor meaning everything is not equal. Unfortunately the best location can only be determined by listening or measuring.

If this were my setup I’d try the PC2000 in a few locations (up front and in place of the end table) and see which spot sounds better. Then I’d pick the subwoofer based on that location. If it is upfront, go dual and get the best two subwoofers you can that fit in that space. If next to the couch sounds better, then get one of the big subs you were looking at. If both locations are equally good, then you can go either way and that’s when you can start comparing the big subs to two smaller subs as you’ll have determined either location works.

Everything I’ve read and been told is that location is priority number one, so I’d pick that first and then folks can help you find the best subs for that specific spot.

Ideally there would be a subwoofer that would work next to the couch AND upfront so you could have as many placement options available as possible and even go dual using both locations.

Thank you. i plan to try the pc2000 up front today. As I mentioned yesterday it works fine in the end table space from a sound perspective but doesn’t fit the end table need. I’ll see how it compares with the front stage.

 

[mazersteven]

Put the Sub in the Sweet Spot (Right on the couch) and do the Crawl. For Shits and Giggles see where it says to place it

 

[txbonds]

Put the Sub in the Sweet Spot (Right on the couch) and do the Crawl. For Shits and Giggles see where it says to place it

I'll try that to but it may have to be Monday when everyone is out of the house. When I do that, do I need to run the calibration YPAO thing again, or just leave it set like it currently is and move it over? Also, any specific recommended media to play for the test? Thanks.

 

[mazersteven]

Crawling for Bass - Subwoofer Placement Tips

Do the Subwoofer Crawl. It's the easiest way to find the proper placement location for your subwoofer to get the best performance and sound.

www.audioholics.com

 

[lovinthehd]

I'll try that to but it may have to be Monday when everyone is out of the house. When I do that, do I need to run the calibration YPAO thing again, or just leave it set like it currently is and move it over? Also, any specific recommended media to play for the test? Thanks.

I'd turn off YPAO for the test then re-run it after the sub crawl....

 

[Kleinst]

Mixing subs, ported +sealed, or 2 different ported... requires a lot of skill and expertise to make work.
If you mix subs with two different levels of output, the more powerful sub will be limited by the less powerful.

Thanks can you help explain how the more powerful sub is limited by the less for my learning?

 

[lovinthehd]

The system is generally limited by the weakest sub, and thus are holding one with more capability back so to speak if trying to use each to their "full potential" .....altho there may be something said for still having the lesser subs fill in to an extent. If they are going to be different makes/models of subs those with more similar performance/response will be easier to integrate, tho. Matching subs is the easiest way to go....altho then there's Geddes' way of doing things....@ryanosaur can fill you in better on that these days....

 

[Kleinst]

Thanks anyone chiming in will help. I have a ‘lessor’ sub nearfield in a couple of my setups figuring it can’t hurt to give a little extra punch and figured because it’s closer it might not have to be as robust as the larger subs that are near my front. But I’m sure there is some error in my logic.

 

[lovinthehd]

One way to find out with what you've already got....

 

[mazersteven]

You have been given excellent advice and are continuing to fight against it.

At this point, frankly, I do not know how to offer any further help!

LMAO

 

[txbonds]

It's been nearly a month so I might as well put an update on here. Had a few shipping snafu's with other components to my system that were eventually worked out. Still have a few things on order like a 4k player.

Anyway, received a PSA TV18-IPAL earlier this week and have been working to blend it into my system. It is huge and only fits in the one spot, but so far it seems to be working well. Provides a nice solid bottom to the Canton main speakers, which I've been using without a sub for the past few weeks. Right now I'm using the mains with a 60hz crossover to keep more of the mid-bass up front and to reduce any localization of the sub.

Here is a picture with FOX News on the screen, sure to get some of you foaming at the mouth.

 

[txbonds]

Just got my Panasonic 4K player and I’m just in awe. These are just phone cam snaps of the Sony 950H that don’t do it justice after scaling them down to upload, but wow what an improvement. LOL

 

[lovinthehd]

Kinda like listening to someone's video, looking at stills of a tv on my laptop.....at least three of the four aren't faux news