Coronavirus

[Mikado463]

Your post is off the mark by a long way.

First of all, that report was about influenza, and never mentioned SARS-CoV-2 or any other corona virus.

"Although mechanistic studies [*] support the potential effect of hand hygiene or face masks, evidence from 14 randomized controlled trials of these measures did not support a substantial effect on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza."​

There are major differences between those viruses and the diseases they cause. Influenza has been around humans for many thousands of years. The various influenza virus strains, as well as the human hosts, have evolved resulting in less lethality to humans and more widespread presence of the viruses. SARS-CoV-2 is brand new. Any less lethal forms have yet to appear. It is wrong to equate these two viral diseases. Attempts by "Agent Orange" to do so only display his ignorance and foolishness.

With regard to wearing masks, there are some critical differences. With influenza we have the benefit of vaccines which can work, with limitations. For SARS-CoV-2, no vaccines are presently available. There are also four somewhat effective medications that can minimize flu symptoms or shorten the course of the disease. No such drugs are yet known for Covid-19. Compared to the available vaccines or medications, masks offer limited benefit for influenza. Because masks, isolation, or quarantine are the only available methods to limit the spread of SARS-CoV-2, the use of masks becomes considerably more important for that virus than it is for influenza.

If you don't believe me, I'll be glad to discuss this further, privately or publicly. I'll probably be much less polite about it.

If you intended to add fuel to the fire over the silly political debate over wearing masks, congratulations. You've joined Agent Orange's Ignorant Fool List.

But my real reaction is Shame on You! You'd rather score points in a silly online debate, instead of opposing the unnecessary loss of human lives.

whoa buddy, calm the 'f' down, just cause you're a medical genius. I merely put a link to which I put a question mark. If you wanna go ballistic and political go right ahead. So shame on you, cause you've totally taken things out of context. I put it here for the experts like you and TLS to hopefully comment on constructively and you go get your panties all in a wad !

 

[panteragstk]

whoa buddy, calm the 'f' down, just cause you're a medical genius. I merely put a link to which I put a question mark. If you wanna go ballistic and political go right ahead. So shame on you, cause you've totally taken things out of context. I put it here for the experts like you and TLS to hopefully comment on constructively and you go get your panties all in a wad !

Understand that this is a sensitive issue for a lot of us. I'm in TX where it's exploding right now because people won't distance and won't wear masks. That's why people are getting upset at articles like that.

I would have added a bit more context since you meant it as a discussion point (which I'm interested in too, BTW) so we can simply debunk the article and show why masks do indeed help in this case.

So, let's get to grabbing some sources that have scientific data to back up mask wearing. I already provided my info-graphic so I did my part.

 

[Mikado463]

Understand that this is a sensitive issue for a lot of us. I'm in TX where it's exploding right now because people won't distance and won't wear masks. That's why people are getting upset at articles like that.

I would have added a bit more context since you meant it as a discussion point (which I'm interested in too, BTW) so we can simply debunk the article and show why masks do indeed help in this case.

So, let's get to grabbing some sources that have scientific data to back up mask wearing. I already provided my info-graphic so I did my part.

You're right, but I DID NOT intend to put more fuel on this already crazy fire. Being over 65 I wear my mask and follow our states guidelines. The whole mask thing has been a bone of contention since the beginning, even Dr Tony created some confusion.

I get it, I wear mine, you wear yours is the best practice. I have since the beginning.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31604-4/fulltext

Safety and immunogenicity of the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine

"In conclusion, ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 was safe, tolerated, and immunogenic, while reactogenicity was reduced with paracetamol. A single dose elicited both humoral and cellular responses against SARS-CoV-2, with a booster immunisation augmenting neutralising antibody titres."

I am not an expert and I am very cautious about news media hype, but does this hold any promise? I hope so.

 

[TLS Guy]

throw your mask(s) in the dumpster ?? ................

Dear humans: face masks don’t work; the study-review was published by your very own CDC « Jon Rappoport's Blog

Do not post dangerous false information, that is the job of the current POTUS.

 

[TLS Guy]

Well I have just been reading the paper from the Oxford group published in today's Lancet.

Of 9000 cases injected almost 91% showed an antibody response, most starting at 5 days. All had a memory T-cell response. After the second booster dose 100% had an antibody and T-cell response. So by laboratory criteria they were all immune. However ongoing Phase 3 trials in Brazil and South Africa will be required to see if those injected are immune compared to the other half given the placebo. We should know the results of all this in at least 6 to 8 weeks time.

Unfortunately manufacturing this complex vaccine is difficult, I suspect because of the time it takes to produce the monkey adenovirus, which is the DNA plasmid vector. Anyhow they were hoping to have 2 billion doses early next year. This has been reduced to 100 million by March which the UK government ha purchased.

This is the most advanced vaccine to date. The UK government has purchased 90 million doses from a German group allied with Pfizer and 90 million from a French group. These vaccines have not completed phase 1. They all use a different approach, so this hedges their bet should the Oxford group fail. The Oxford vaccine so far has not done any permanent harm to anyone. Unfortunately most vaccines fail.

On another encouraging note a small pharmaceutical company along with Southhampton University have done a very small trial in 100 patients of inhaled interferon Beta, in hospitalized patients. This drug is being developed to treat MS. Anyhow this small preliminary study showed a marked reduction in ICU admission of 79%, with much reduced mortality of 50%. Hospital stay was reduced 30%. Of course this is early data which may not hold up.

This was an intelligent thing to try, as interferon is the bodies first defense against viral infection.

I would hope we can keep this thread on track. This recent outbreak if bickering is not edifying in this serious situation. Although we do have to counteract dangerous false information like that propagated by Trump.

I believe advances in medical treatment and vaccine development will solve this dreadful problem. Until it does then it is everyone's responsibility to keep the case count as low as humanly possible not only to prevent deaths, but long term disability and shortened life spans.

 

[Swerd]

Of 9000 cases injected almost 91% showed an antibody response, most starting at 5 days. All had a memory T-cell response. After the second booster dose 100% had an antibody and T-cell response. So by laboratory criteria they were all immune. However ongoing Phase 3 trials in Brazil and South Africa will be required to see if those injected are immune compared to the other half given the placebo. We should know the results of all this in at least 6 to 8 weeks time.

That's pretty good news, especially the memory T-cell responses. We'll know more once the Phase 3 trials develop some results. Perhaps they should do those trials in Florida, Texas, and Arizona.

On another encouraging note a small pharmaceutical company along with Southhampton University have done a very small trial in 100 patients of inhaled interferon Beta, in hospitalized patients.

Interferons alpha or gamma can be another toxic can of worms, at least at the doses given to cancer patients. Neither of those are used much anymore because of the severe reactions. I know much less about IFN-beta.

Type 1 IFNs (alpha & beta) in general work under natural conditions at very low concentrations and for a short length of time. The problem is they also induce a natural response that soon degrades the IFN proteins. If IFN is used medically at higher doses or at longer exposures, that natural degradation response clears it soon. So a lot depends on how long it's given, and at what dose.

 

[Swerd]

I believe advances in medical treatment and vaccine development will solve this dreadful problem. Until it does then it is everyone's responsibility to keep the case count as low as humanly possible not only to prevent deaths, but long term disability and shortened life spans.

I worry that the irrational resistance to wearing masks we see now is a harbinger of worse resistance to vaccinations in the future.

I wouldn't put it past Trump (aka Agent Orange) and the desperate GOP to make political football out of vaccinations.

 

[Alex2507]

I worry that the irrational resistance to wearing masks we see now is a harbinger of worse resistance to vaccinations in the future.

Let's just round 'em up and send 'em to Australia.

It worked once.

 

[KEW]

I believe advances in medical treatment and vaccine development will solve this dreadful problem. Until it does then it is everyone's responsibility to keep the case count as low as humanly possible not only to prevent deaths, but long term disability and shortened life spans.

This bears repeating!
A simple, straightforward statement of fact!

Living in Georgia, I am astounded with the lack of masks in public. Why must this be obscured by politics?
Instead we have people whining about the government taking away rights by enforcing face masks and a president who thinks the US has the lowest mortality rate in the world!

 

[Mikado463]

Do not post dangerous false information, that is the job of the current POTUS.

Doc, that was not the intent, thus the question marks !! Sorry that I'm not perfect like you Swerd ........

 

[Mr._Clark]

Here is my rant to all the dumb-asses that refuse to wear mask or social distance in the name of freedom.

My wife has stage 4 cancer in the neck and the chief oncologist for the city of Ottawa is really struggling to get a medical team together for the required operation and subsequent treatment that may save her life. I say struggling because the dumbf?ck freedomists are chewing up much of the medical resources in the hospital that could be used to treat people with other life threatening conditions. These dumbf?ck freedomists are selfish narrow minded people that dont care for the welfare of others and put their own selfish agenda before the common good of the community.

My message to you freedomists is this..go to secluded place with your gun, stick the barrel in your mouth and please for humanity sake pull the trigger before you kill anymore people or chew up much needed medical resources that could save people that really matter.

This is one of the things that annoys me the most about the freedomists. They don't give a rat's ass about spreading the virus on the basis that others can't tell them what to do, but they run to the hospital and expect everyone else to take care of them and cover the costs. If they actually went and lived on an island and left the rest of us alone, it would be one thing. But of course they don't.

As someone once said:

"All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated...As therefore the bell that rings to a sermon, calls not upon the preacher only, but upon the congregation to come: so this bell calls us all: but how much more me, who am brought so near the door by this sickness....No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

 

[Mr._Clark]

Do not post dangerous false information, that is the job of the current POTUS.

This reminds me of a story told to me by a doctor I knew some years ago. People called him "Wild Bill." He was a surgeon in Europe after D Day, and he did not suffer fools gladly. He said that he was performing surgery on a wounded GI in France, and Patton walked into the tent without a mask. According to Bill, he told Patton "Get the hell out of here!" and Patton turned around and walked out without saying a word. I was not about to question him about the accuracy of the story.

Unfortunately, Bill passed away some time ago. He was one of the finest people I have ever met.

 

[Danzilla31]

Here is my rant to all the dumb-asses that refuse to wear mask or social distance in the name of freedom.

My wife has stage 4 cancer in the neck and the chief oncologist for the city of Ottawa is really struggling to get a medical team together for the required operation and subsequent treatment that may save her life. I say struggling because the dumbf?ck freedomists are chewing up much of the medical resources in the hospital that could be used to treat people with other life threatening conditions. These dumbf?ck freedomists are selfish narrow minded people that dont care for the welfare of others and put their own selfish agenda before the common good of the community.

My message to you freedomists is this..go to secluded place with your gun, stick the barrel in your mouth and please for humanity sake pull the trigger before you kill anymore people or chew up much needed medical resources that could save people that really matter.

I just want to say my heart goes out to you and your wife right now.

I pray we can get some of this contained so she can receive the treatments she needs hang in there

I know words just aren't enough but all the best to you right now

 

[TLS Guy]

Doc, that was not the intent, thus the question marks !! Sorry that I'm not perfect like you Swerd ........

You just gave me too good an opportunity for a one liner!

 

[Mr._Clark]

Here's an interesting article about T cell immunity.

>>>There is a catch, however. In many patients who are hospitalised with more serious Covid-19, the T cell response hasn’t quite gone to plan.

“Vast numbers of T cells are being affected,” says Hayday. “And what is happening to them is a bit like a wedding party or a stag night gone wrong – I mean massive amounts of activity and proliferation, but the cells are also just disappearing from the blood.”

One theory is that these T cells are just being redirected to where they’re needed most, such as the lungs. But his team suspects that a lot of them are dying instead.

“Autopsies of Covid-19 patients are beginning to reveal what we call necrosis, which is a sort of rotting,” he says. This is particularly evident in the areas of the spleen and lymph glands where T cells normally live.

Disconcertingly, spleen necrosis is a hallmark of T cell disease, in which the immune cells themselves are attacked. “If you look in post-mortems of Aids patients, you see these same problems,” says Hayday. “But HIV is a virus that directly infects T cells, it knocks on the door and it gets in.” In contrast, there is currently no evidence that the Covid-19 virus is able to do this.

“There are potentially many explanations for this, but to my knowledge, nobody has one yet,” says Hayday. “We have no idea what is happening. There’s every evidence that the T cells can protect you, probably for many years. But when people get ill, the rug seems to be being pulled from under them in their attempts to set up that protective defence mechanism.”<<<

The people with hidden immunity against Covid-19

While the latest research suggests that antibodies against Covid-19 could be lost in just three months, a new hope has appeared on the horizon: the enigmatic T cell.

www.bbc.com

 

[TLS Guy]

Here is my rant to all the dumb-asses that refuse to wear mask or social distance in the name of freedom.

My wife has stage 4 cancer in the neck and the chief oncologist for the city of Ottawa is really struggling to get a medical team together for the required operation and subsequent treatment that may save her life. I say struggling because the dumbf?ck freedomists are chewing up much of the medical resources in the hospital that could be used to treat people with other life threatening conditions. These dumbf?ck freedomists are selfish narrow minded people that dont care for the welfare of others and put their own selfish agenda before the common good of the community.

My message to you freedomists is this..go to secluded place with your gun, stick the barrel in your mouth and please for humanity sake pull the trigger before you kill anymore people or chew up much needed medical resources that could save people that really matter.

I just looked at the data for Ottawa. I note you have had a late peak. It seems you now may be just passed peak. I can understand you want to get your wife's treatment started. However she will have the best outlook if she is treated in the Valley. It will not be good if she gets Covid-19 in during the treatment she will require.

Both Swerd and I had to delay treatment because of this pandemic. Our cases here really ramped up as my treatment was being planned. So I elected to wait three months and was treated in the low point. There is recent evidence that we may be just starting our second peak here in Minnesota. In this pandemic timing of treatment is a big part of the key to success.

 

[TLS Guy]

Here's an interesting article about T cell immunity.

>>>There is a catch, however. In many patients who are hospitalised with more serious Covid-19, the T cell response hasn’t quite gone to plan.

“Vast numbers of T cells are being affected,” says Hayday. “And what is happening to them is a bit like a wedding party or a stag night gone wrong – I mean massive amounts of activity and proliferation, but the cells are also just disappearing from the blood.”

One theory is that these T cells are just being redirected to where they’re needed most, such as the lungs. But his team suspects that a lot of them are dying instead.

“Autopsies of Covid-19 patients are beginning to reveal what we call necrosis, which is a sort of rotting,” he says. This is particularly evident in the areas of the spleen and lymph glands where T cells normally live.

Disconcertingly, spleen necrosis is a hallmark of T cell disease, in which the immune cells themselves are attacked. “If you look in post-mortems of Aids patients, you see these same problems,” says Hayday. “But HIV is a virus that directly infects T cells, it knocks on the door and it gets in.” In contrast, there is currently no evidence that the Covid-19 virus is able to do this.

“There are potentially many explanations for this, but to my knowledge, nobody has one yet,” says Hayday. “We have no idea what is happening. There’s every evidence that the T cells can protect you, probably for many years. But when people get ill, the rug seems to be being pulled from under them in their attempts to set up that protective defence mechanism.”<<<

The people with hidden immunity against Covid-19

While the latest research suggests that antibodies against Covid-19 could be lost in just three months, a new hope has appeared on the horizon: the enigmatic T cell.

www.bbc.com

We now this virus can kill lymphocytes. We know that mortality decreases as lymphocytes go down. The depth of the lymphopeania is the best predictor for a difficult course and mortality.

 

[Swerd]

We now this virus can kill lymphocytes. We know that mortality decreases as lymphocytes go down. The depth of the lymphopeania is the best predictor for a difficult course and mortality.

Is there any evidence whether the lymphopenia is directly due to the virus, or indirect? Might the cytokine storm lead to lymphopenia?

In the lab, T-cells are notoriously difficult to keep alive or to grow in cell culture. In cancer therapy, T-cell leukemias or lymphomas are often highly sensitive to chemotherapy agents. I heard one oncologist say T-cells were like "canaries in a coal mine" for testing new chemotherapy drugs.

 

[Swerd]

Both Swerd and I had to delay treatment because of this pandemic. Our cases here really ramped up as my treatment was being planned. So I elected to wait three months and was treated in the low point. There is recent evidence that we may be just starting our second peak here in Minnesota. In this pandemic timing of treatment is a big part of the key to success.

My surgery was originally scheduled for 13 April. It was cancelled one week before that date, and was eventually rescheduled for 25 June. It was a very long wait.

@3db – All the best wishes for your wife and yourself too.