as if COVID wasn't bad enough ............

[Ponzio]

Youtube if full of people of all backrounds showing that they exhibit internally derived thought. Are you sure you aren't using the word token to mean something else?

Nope, I think it's a calculated decision by management. Your mileage may vary.

 

[chris357]

In My opinion Reparations is a complicated issue and I'm probably not going to hit every point that needs to be brought up. Nor have I done any real due diligence on the subject, so this is just opinion.

The biggest problem is quantifying how much, who pays, and who gets it. The issues of generational wealth, and a lack of equity are real but how do you go back and say because John Smith was denied a loan for this property back in 1879 his family was forever affected. I mean this is the type of thing we are getting into and it was real. Even in current times the redlining significantly effected people of color.


Big Financial institutions were probably the biggest benefactors of all of this, and possibly the government. Make banks with ties back to any of these policies provide down payment assistance on a super low interest loan for any person of color who can qualify on home or business loans. The government could do something similar through FHA. This accomplishes quite a bit without it being a straight up government payout.

Obviously this would raise costs on everyone else utilizing these services but possibly not significantly and it would just get absorbed in rates and such. Mostly I think this would be more acceptable than a flat tax increase because as a middle class man from a broken home who lived in a low income development as a kid I have no generational wealth.

Just spit balling here but its something

 

[Danzilla31]

Because every time there's a racial/political issue Faux News brings out their token black man/woman to spout their gibberish, that's all.

Ok I see what your trying to say at least I think I do

I guess for me it's simple I was raised in a white home where if I'd ever expressed any form of racism my pops would've beat my a@$! from one side of the neighborhood to the other

I was raised that people are people period and should be respected that way end of story by there character and actions they also whooped my butt for a lot of stuff Looking back I'm grateful for all of it know

Martin Luther King and Malcolm X were two of my heroes esoecially Malcolm X because he started out so angry (justified ) but to watch him evolve and read some of his thoughts as he grew as a person and how both of them stood for there beliefs against all odds was just inspiring to me I wanted to be like them like there character I guess

So my upbringing taught to see the world that way

I've been shocked to see all of this unfold because in seeing things this way I was blind to a lot of stuff that is still going on

I do think we need to get better on race and police and some obvious inequalities after dialoguing with people

But I'm not ashamed to be white and I don't need a mouthpiece for my conscience

One thing I TOTALLY agree with these guys on is I don't want anyone giving me anything

Even if whites are taking sh@$ for stuff right now I'm not asking for empathy sympathy handouts or nothing just like they constantly express in there comedy I'm just going to deal with it and rise above it I do agree with them on that point

I don't have no hate for nobody even if they have it for me

That's just who I am I guess and how I feel it's that simple for me because of how I was raised

Now obviously theres a much bigger problem out there then I know how to even wrap my head around

So it's why I like to talk about it on this thread I wan't to hear viewpoints from left from the right from all humans of all colors even people outside my country cuz sometimes people looking outside of you can give some good feedback on things were caught up in the middle of right now you don't always see clearly when your caught up in it

That way I can make up my own mind down the road and hopefully get involved in some way for positive change

I'm very active with the mentally ill because those are my patients and there care needs a lot of reform so I'm not as well versed as some on these issues coming up some of it just blindsided me actually so I'm just down to dialogue and to learn really

 

[Trell]

You're right, it's not the center of the world or the US and that's a good thing considering the way it's circling the drain but it's a place I know, unlike you posting about this country. I wouldn't think of telling you about your country because I'm not very familiar with it.

The same type of argument that authoritarian regimes use to deflect opinions by foreigners, not at all that surprising coming from you.

 

[Steve81]

The biggest problem is quantifying how much, who pays, and who gets it. The issues of generational wealth, and a lack of equity are real but how do you go back and say because John Smith was denied a loan for this property back in 1879 his family was forever affected. I mean this is the type of thing we are getting into and it was real. Even in current times the redlining significantly effected people of color.


Big Financial institutions were probably the biggest benefactors of all of this, and possibly the government. Make banks with ties back to any of these policies provide down payment assistance on a super low interest loan for any person of color who can qualify on home or business loans. The government could do something similar through FHA. This accomplishes quite a bit without it being a straight up government payout.

IMHO, subsidized loans for home ownership and higher education seem like the best investments, and may be a pill that’s easier to swallow politically than direct cash payments.

 

[ski2xblack]

Portland is a total sh!t show right now, overrun by woke mobs of wannabe Robespierres, with huge sections of town covered in anti-police graffiti and nightly violence. Watch this video of a black cop (who has a degree in history, so this must be absolute torture for him) dealing with all of it.

 

[jinjuku]

Nope, I think it's a calculated decision by management. Your mileage may vary.

You only get as far as you are willing to walk. Stopping where you are stopping, not engaging in looking for other viewpoints, tells me you have an agenda and not a possible pursuit of a greater truth in mind.

 

[Ponzio]

You only get as far as you are willing to walk. Stopping where you are stopping, not engaging in looking for other viewpoints, tells me you have an agenda and not a possible pursuit of a greater truth in mind.

That's very deep. I am not worthy.

The closest I am to an agenda right now is to wake up tomorrow.

 

[Danzilla31]

Portland is a total sh!t show right now, overrun by woke mobs of wannabe Robespierres, with huge sections of town covered in anti-police graffiti and nightly violence. Watch this video of a black cop (who has a degree in history, so this must be absolute torture for him) dealing with all of it.

Damn I'm sorry to hear that is that where you live?

 

[ski2xblack]

No, thankfully I live in relative peace in Colorado.

 

[Danzilla31]

Portland is a total sh!t show right now, overrun by woke mobs of wannabe Robespierres, with huge sections of town covered in anti-police graffiti and nightly violence. Watch this video of a black cop (who has a degree in history, so this must be absolute torture for him) dealing with all of it.

Man thank you for that post that dude is a f@$!ing hero in my opinion God bless him and all police like him. That was powerful

 

[Danzilla31]

No, thankfully I live in relative peace in Colorado.

Yeah here in Texas it hasn't been too bad we had some issues downtown for a bit but not as bad as other places

 

[John Parks]

Yeah here in Texas it hasn't been too bad we had some issues downtown for a bit but not as bad as other places

Oh, but they are trying, bless their hearts... This is not two blocks from where I live in downtown Dallas just the other night:

 

[highfigh]

The same type of argument that authoritarian regimes use to deflect opinions by foreigners, not at all that surprising coming from you.

You seem to need a hug.

 

[highfigh]

If it is deemed appropriate to pay reparations, that would be "owed money", not charity or vote buying. And, if it is owed money, the acquiescence to pay or the impact on national debt are pretty much irrelevant.

The Case for Reparations

Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole.

www.theatlantic.com

Canada is paying, and will pay, Indigenous people reparations to compensate for damages caused by various policies over the years. We probably owe much more...

How did this become about reparations?

OK, if you think reparations are owed, what would you do about Black slave owners (yes, some were Black) or Black slave owners who owned White slaves? These were slaves, not indentured servants. Blacks owned land and farms that were large enough to require large numbers of workers and slavery was the cheapest way to get that work done. If you think this is BS, watch the PBS show called 'Finding Your Roots', hosted by Henry Louis Gates Jr.

If the Federal government is supposed to pay this, the money would come from ALL taxpayers, even if their ancestors came here after slavery. How would you explain your plan to them and get them to accept it? Good luck with that. What about people whose families never had anything to do with slavery?

How is it not about national debt if no country can pay an unlimited amount of money without devaluing its currency to the point of making it useless? How would you set the amount each person receives?

 

[highfigh]

I want to stop filling prisons. I want drug users to get help that isn't in the form of punishment. Last time I stopped showing for work I didn't have a job. I work at a job that does drug screening.

Criminal drug laws did nothing to prevent two kids in your neighborhood from OD'ing. Getting them medical help may.

I said decriminalize, not make legal. Bottom line is you are going to have idiots that use and that's all they want to do. One of my brothers, whom I have no contact with, is such just a cause. I don't see any recourse for him other than a short life. He's now going in and out of the hospital with related problems and the occurrences are ramping up. He's been a life long poor decision maker since his early teens. Ain't no fix for that.

Did you edit that post to add the part about decriminalizing after I replied? I don't remember seeing that part before.

I agree that mental health treatment should be much better but people have to let go of the stigma of needing it and being related to someone who needs it. Also, the drugs used to treat some mental illness cause many patients to stop taking their meds because of the side effects. It's extremely difficult to treat some conditions effectively.

You're completely ignoring the problem behind filling prisons- people won't stop committing crimes but they don't lock up people for having a few joints unless they have weapons, past sentences that require certain conditions (like probation/parole) or are carrying weapons as felons. Many are already wanted or have warrants but those details are often left out when people complain about someone being locked up for possession of a small amount.

When did we get the freedom to decide which laws we'll obey and which we won't? If it's illegal, it should be avoided and this says nothing about the fact that ingesting large amounts of drugs is harmful to the human body whether cumulatively or in one dose. Pot isn't totally harmless and while many of the drugs that are abused are used medically and are valid, their effects put people at risk because of the impairment of the users.

Would you coddle your kids when they continuously disobey you?

The kids in my neighborhood had medical help and they lived at home and their parents tried to get them to stop and neither sets of parents were hard-line "You better stop or I'm gonna kick your ass!" types- I went to school with both dads through high school and knew them then but didn't know the moms. Unfortunately, they weren't the only ones I have known whose lives were ruined or ended by drugs or alcohol and some resorted to suicide.

The problem with drug users- they won't stop unless they want to, regardless of how good the prevention/recovery programs are.

Medicinal use is fine, although the warnings on many drugs make it seem that the cure may be worse than the disease.

Sorry to read about your brother. Sounds like people I knew, unfortunately. I miss some of them- others were nothing but trouble but it's still sad that they took those paths.

 

[highfigh]

In My opinion Reparations is a complicated issue and I'm probably not going to hit every point that needs to be brought up. Nor have I done any real due diligence on the subject, so this is just opinion.

The biggest problem is quantifying how much, who pays, and who gets it. The issues of generational wealth, and a lack of equity are real but how do you go back and say because John Smith was denied a loan for this property back in 1879 his family was forever affected. I mean this is the type of thing we are getting into and it was real. Even in current times the redlining significantly effected people of color.


Big Financial institutions were probably the biggest benefactors of all of this, and possibly the government. Make banks with ties back to any of these policies provide down payment assistance on a super low interest loan for any person of color who can qualify on home or business loans. The government could do something similar through FHA. This accomplishes quite a bit without it being a straight up government payout.

Obviously this would raise costs on everyone else utilizing these services but possibly not significantly and it would just get absorbed in rates and such. Mostly I think this would be more acceptable than a flat tax increase because as a middle class man from a broken home who lived in a low income development as a kid I have no generational wealth.

Just spit balling here but its something

The thing about generational wealth is that not all of it came from slavery- many amassed it through a helluva lot of hard work, innovation, a bit of luck and being the type of person who was worth of being helped. Some, unfortunately, came from extreme dishonesty, rampant greed and being blatantly exploitative with people who could have been helped, rather than being taken advantage of.

In order to find those who really owe, we need to look at who prevented the former slaves and their families getting what was promised by the government, the plantation owners, family members of KKK/John Birch Society and other similar groups, etc. Time passed makes this an extremely difficult thing, IMO.

Red lining affects everyone living in those areas- part of it has to do with who can get loans, but their credit history has more to do with it. Insurance rates are higher, too. Been there for that one and honestly, I still am because our Zip Code is shared by Milwaukee and the suburb where we live and the crime in/from Milwaukee has really screwed us. The adjacent Zip Codes aren't affected in this way- it's not just marking a map, it can also use the whole Zip Code area.

 

[GO-NAD!]

How did this become about reparations?

OK, if you think reparations are owed, what would you do about Black slave owners (yes, some were Black) or Black slave owners who owned White slaves? These were slaves, not indentured servants. Blacks owned land and farms that were large enough to require large numbers of workers and slavery was the cheapest way to get that work done. If you think this is BS, watch the PBS show called 'Finding Your Roots', hosted by Henry Louis Gates Jr.

If the Federal government is supposed to pay this, the money would come from ALL taxpayers, even if their ancestors came here after slavery. How would you explain your plan to them and get them to accept it? Good luck with that. What about people whose families never had anything to do with slavery?

How is it not about national debt if no country can pay an unlimited amount of money without devaluing its currency to the point of making it useless? How would you set the amount each person receives?

Hey, I never said I was for or against it (although I think the concept merits serious consideration), nor did I mention any particular amount owed. Suggesting an "unlimited amount of money" is a straw man.

My point would be that if reparations are deemed to be owed, it should be considered a debt, not discretionary spending.

And, it's not for me to plan it. It will certainly be a challenge to unpack all the complicating factors.

There's nothing new about the concept of reparations. Germany started paying Israel reparations back in the 1950's.

I'm intrigued about the "Black slave owners who owned White slaves" in the US. Do you have any links for that?

 

[highfigh]

Hey, I never said I was for or against it (although I think the concept merits serious consideration), nor did I mention any particular amount owed. Suggesting an "unlimited amount of money" is a straw man.

My point would be that if reparations are deemed to be owed, it should be considered a debt, not discretionary spending.

And, it's not for me to plan it. It will certainly be a challenge to unpack all the complicating factors.

There's nothing new about the concept of reparations. Germany started paying Israel reparations back in the 1950's.

I'm intrigued about the "Black slave owners who owned White slaves" in the US. Do you have any links for that?

Nazi Germany specifically targeted Jews and took everything from them, including their lives- why would they NOT be required to pay for this?

Watch the show, especially the episodes with Black people (they're all celebrities). They find all kinds of interesting info that the guests never knew or would have guessed. The last time I watched, Michael Strahan was on and they found his lineage all the way back through King Charles II to Charlemagne because of a white ancestor. IIRC, Wanda Sykes is one who had a black ancestor who owned at least one White slave.

These are interesting-

especially this one-

 

[chris357]

The thing about generational wealth is that not all of it came from slavery- many amassed it through a helluva lot of hard work, innovation, a bit of luck and being the type of person who was worth of being helped. Some, unfortunately, came from extreme dishonesty, rampant greed and being blatantly exploitative with people who could have been helped, rather than being taken advantage of.

In order to find those who really owe, we need to look at who prevented the former slaves and their families getting what was promised by the government, the plantation owners, family members of KKK/John Birch Society and other similar groups, etc. Time passed makes this an extremely difficult thing, IMO.

Red lining affects everyone living in those areas- part of it has to do with who can get loans, but their credit history has more to do with it. Insurance rates are higher, too. Been there for that one and honestly, I still am because our Zip Code is shared by Milwaukee and the suburb where we live and the crime in/from Milwaukee has really screwed us. The adjacent Zip Codes aren't affected in this way- it's not just marking a map, it can also use the whole Zip Code area.

I agree its complicated and in some ways impossible to without any doubt trace every instance of this. I agree many people who created generational wealth did it by working really hard, but at that same time if a person of color had had access to the same programs they would also have been creating that same wealth.

either way its a cluster ....