Third Channel (i.e., 3.1) or Not?

[John Parks]

A two way speaker has a tweeter and a mid woofer or more. A three way has woofer, or more, plus mid or mids and tweeter.

Your speakers are two way. The center you sighted is a three way with mid/tweeter coaxial driver. That is the speaker that I showed the FR for.

The problem comes that in three ways there is often a null at crossover and this can be dealt with by reversing the phase of the mid driver, like Dennis Murphy's Philharmonitor for instance.

The problem comes if the mains are two way and the center three way, then correcting the null puts the center mid out of phase with the main's bass mid. I can assure you that is not good. So it becomes better to accept the null and keep the mid in phase with the mains.

The problem is that a center 2 way MTM with horizontal lay out is compromised, especially when the crossover is in the speech discrimination band.

So the solutions are a vertically aligned center, a full range driver for the center, a coaxial driver for the center , or a three way with a mid good enough to cover the whole of the speech discrimination band. The problem is that really good full rangers are very rare, coaxial drivers are also not plentiful, nor are mids that can cover the whole of the speech discrimination band at power plentiful. All of this adds to making a center speaker a real design challenge. I agree with the BBC that center speakers in most cases are a problem and not a useful addition if the mains are capable and can project a stable central image over a wide area.

Solutions I have employed are a full ranger (vintage JW) at our Eagan residence. This was a small town home, and this actually worked out very well.

In the AV room a biamped TL using two SEAS coaxial drivers, which is a unique, 2.5.5 way. That is an incredibly good center channel with the most natural speech I think I have heard from any speaker. Its development was arduous to say the least. I think though of all the speakers I have designed that is the one I am most proud of. The mains though seemingly more complex, and they are were in fact the easier design project. The center matches them perfectly, though different in design and construct.

In my latest in wall design for our now home's great room, I designed a system with right and left MTM 2 way, for the center a three way with a mid crossed at 400 Hz and 4 KHz. So the mid covers the speech discrimination band. The sub is a TL in wall. Quite honestly this system would have been fine as a 2.1 system. So it really became 3.1 as I wanted the challenge of designing a three way center. I have to say that center speakers pose a huge design challenge.

Full range center system, now taken down.

Coaxail TL center.

Three way center in wall system.

Here is the null I was talking about. The back trace is the on axis response.

However the null gets obscured. This is all channels driven, at all the listening chairs in the room, plus the green line, which is way off axis and at the kitchen cook top, that is the green trace.

o perform

So it all ends up having good in room coverage over a wide area.

This system is jealously guarded by my wife, who regards it as her system. This is 98% a TV and movie system. She does blast her music from her ipod from time to time. The main thing is that speech clarity is excellent and natural. It is though also a very good music system, although that is not its primary purpose. It is to perform as an excellent TV sound system, was its primary purpose goal. It has made my wife happy.

So those are the only realistic options for the center channel in my view.

If you are happy with your system, and you a stable center image with good speech clarity, then I don't think a center will add anything of significance.

Again, a quite informative and well thought out reply - very appreciated! Your last sentence sums it all up and is probably the direction I am going.

Just to reiterate a point, my existing speakers are indeed 3 way and match the proposed center channel with the same 4" mid/1" tweeter coincident configuration (having KEF speakers in the past and these Elacs, I have learned the difference between coaxial and coincident [or Uni-Q in KEF-speak]):

Said point is rapidly becoming moot as I am becoming inclined to keep the status quo and concentrate on amplification...

Again, thank you for your replies and I always enjoy getting the chance to ogle your system(s)!

 

[2channel lover]

Excellent - thanks! Yes, I am aware of the more "immersive" recordings and have had some awesome demos!

Good you've experienced it.

As my screen name implies...I'm all in with 2 channel music and have been for years.

Never thought I would like multi-ch music...it seemed too gimmicky. All I can say is I'm glad I tried it....I know everyone can't do surrounds so you do what you can do.

I'm sure you've thought about this, but if you do add the CC...when playing back music with CC vocals, your CC will be on stage so to speak and you want it perform like a L or R.

 

[John Parks]

Good you've experienced it.

As my screen name implies...I'm all in with 2 channel music and have been for years.

Never thought I would like multi-ch music...it seemed too gimmicky. All I can say is I'm glad I tried it....I know everyone can't do surrounds so you do what you can do.

I'm sure you've thought about this, but if you do add the CC...when playing back music with CC vocals, your CC will be on stage so to speak and you want it perform like a L or R.

"I'm sure you've thought about this, but if you do add the CC...when playing back music with CC vocals, your CC will be on stage so to speak and you want it perform like a L or R." - exactly. That's why I was going with the dedicated center from the same line. It is a much larger speaker with and additional midbass driver - I am certain it should perform very well (Elac did not exactly skimp when it came to the design).

 

[2channel lover]

"I'm sure you've thought about this, but if you do add the CC...when playing back music with CC vocals, your CC will be on stage so to speak and you want it perform like a L or R." - exactly. That's why I was going with the dedicated center from the same line. It is a much larger speaker with and additional midbass driver - I am certain it should perform very well (Elac did not exactly skimp when it came to the design).

Noted...I didn't really pay attention to the speaker brand etc...mostly the 3.1 concept.

Yep...the last thing you want is weak CC dialog or vocals.

 

[John Parks]

Just in case y'all have been waiting for an update with baited breath: I decided to go with the "Not" option because, as stated earlier, my main interest is 2 channel audio reproduction. Maybe multi channel in the future, but it will require 1) a different living situation to implement it correctly and B) lots of cash to implement it correctly. I put up my Pioneer Elite VSX-LX503 for sale and ordered the Parasound Newclassic 200 Integrated from a local dealer.

Now onto some fun storytelling (at least for me - you may want to skip this, especially if your foot is firmly planted in the purely objectivist camp)!

I called around the DFW Metroplex to see if anyone carried the Parasound integrated (no one had it in stock). I could have ordered it online, but opted to support my local establishments and decided to pay a dealer local to me a visit as I have not seen this gentleman in +/- 20 years. When I walked in, I was reminded that this guy always had excellent demos and really knew his stuff. We chatted for a bit about what I was looking for in a component and he felt that the Newclassic was an excellent option (not as good as the HINT 6, obviously). It turns out he is now a KEF dealer (Elac as well and he was very familiar with my Adantes) and he treated me to an incredible demo with a Lumin streamer front end, Quicksilver Sixty Watt Mono Amp (gotta give it to them for creative nomenclature, no?) tube amps and KEF R5s, all loomed together with his home brew cabling. It was the best I've ever heard a KEF speaker sound and had me seriously doubting my Adante purchase (more on that in a moment). After being justifiably floored, he informed me he would order the Parasound and we said our goodbyes.

I listed my VSX-LX503 on the E of Bays and, to my surprise, it sold almost immediately. Great news, right? Well, the rapid sale unfortunately left me without amplification for the immediate future, which is tragic indeed. I emailed my dealer and asked if he had any floor units I could "borrow" while I waited for my shipment to arrive. He said he had a Marantz I could use. When I arrived at his shoppe, I was expecting a newer model, low cost Marantz... whatever but he offered this:

A mid 70s Marantz Model 1060. My dealer also reconditions, refurbishes and repurposes vintage equipment. During my first visit, I was ogling a couple beautiful Marantz and Pioneer receivers. He did a fantastic job on the 1060 and I really dig the walnut cabinet. I took it home and hooked it up (with speaker cables he so graciously offered as this unit only takes bare wire or pins and I only have bananas).

Wow. This vintage, 30 WPC, simple integrated offers everything - everything - that was missing from my Pioneer AVR: soundstage, imaging, tonal richness, pure upper registers and BASS!. When I initially hooked it up, I played SOMA FM through my TV (Toslink through my Bluesound Node 2i) and left to do some other things. Wait - did I forget to turn my subwoofer off? This was actually my silly thought and not hyperbole (yes, it was off and not even connected - if I were to use a unit like this, I would need to run speaker level connectors or an adapter at the pre out/in connection for line level). I had not heard natural bass like this from my Adantes in any configuration that the Pioneer attempted - and failed - to provide. With the VSX-LX503, my Hsu sub was an absolute necessity for 2 channel music, with the 1060, not at all unless I want to plumb the depths of any exciting church organ performances I may have on hand (okay, a wee exaggeration as I do love me some serious bass!).

So, here is the thing: I thought I had struck out two times in a row with my choice of speakers. Both my Focal Chora 806s and Elac Adante AS-61s sounded dull and uninvolving - nothing near to the performance of my dearly departed Yamaha A-S801/KEF R500 combo and, quite frankly, I was getting a little depressed. I was seriously considering trashing the whole setup and repurchasing what I knew worked. That this little old Marantz integrated can sound so awesome and breath the life that was ALWAYS missing from my speakers (they new nothing except the Pioneer AVR) has me really excited about what the Parasound may bring. If the Newclassic disappoints (doubtful) I can always fall back on this 30 WPC beast (or another purpose designed 2 channel unit) and be enamored for the foreseeable future. This little exercise has only served to reinforce what I have pretty much known all along about amplifiers and doubly reinforced that I will never again rely on an AVR for my 2 channel fix.

In case you live in the DFW area and are would like to know the identity of the dealer that has been so awesome, it is John Fort Audio/Video http://www.johnfortav.com/

 

[Zildjianmeister]

@John Parks enjoy your Parasound newclassic integrated!

I have the original Parasound Halo Integrated. It is a beast but one thing I think they dropped the ball on, I can't stand that the crossover controls for sub are on the back of the integrated. The sub volume level is on the front. None on the remote. As it's in a cabinet it makes it difficult to make adjustments. I pretty much abandoned using my sub in two channel until I get a sub that has gain control on the remote. I believe the newclassic has it all on the remote/display so that should be nice.

Z

 

[John Parks]

@John Parks enjoy your Parasound newclassic integrated!

I have the original Parasound Halo Integrated. It is a beast but one thing I think they dropped the ball on, I can't stand that the crossover controls for sub are on the back of the integrated. The sub volume level is on the front. None on the remote. As it's in a cabinet it makes it difficult to make adjustments. I pretty much abandoned using my sub in two channel until I get a sub that has gain control on the remote. I believe the newclassic has it all on the remote/display so that should be nice.

Z

Thanks @Zildjianmeister !

Yes, the sub volume/defeat is certainly an attractive option. As I mentioned, if the Parasound performs as well in the bass department as the wee Marantz (again, I cannot imagine it not) I will keep the sub disengaged most of the time for music and turn it on for movies, so it is a really nice feature! One thing the HINT has over the Newclassic is an adjustable low pass crossover (the 200 is set at 80Hz, which is not bad, but I would prefer lower).

I've been listening to the 1060 for a couple hour this evening and I'm so impressed by this little guy - it will very hard to give him up! I wish I had room for a third system...

 

[BMXTRIX]

Ignoring all else, my opinion is that you can't go wrong by adding a good center channel to your setup. For that matter, you wouldn't go wrong by adding surrounds to it either. It doesn't diminish your two channel audio listening enjoyment by having speakers in place which aren't used for that purpose.

BUT: When you do drop in that 5.1 movie, and you have good speakers, the immersion that can be achieved can really put the experience at another level. Kind of like having that good subwoofer as part of the mix.

I run 3.1 in my family room, and certainly there is no question that the center channel increases the localization of voices when watching TV/movies and using decent speakers gives solid performance all around.