I Have a Connection Problem...Simple but not

[rightslot]

Actually, THAT is why I came to Audioholics in the beginning. Not thtat it cannot be done, I just think I'M DOING IT WRONG.

I'll play with it tongiht. One more college try! And...I also put a email into the DAC manufacture. But they make the DAC, not the receiver. So who knows?

I'm just trying to get ALL out of my Focal speakers possible. I'm looking for that "they sound like they are in the room" magic. And of coures I won't be spending a penny more. Already $$$$$.$$ in equipment. Time to enjoy.

Two different systems? Well maybe. :-( >>> Not really!

 

[lovinthehd]

How about the guys who sold you on this concept at those stores, can't they tell you how it would all work together? J/K....sort of.

Starting off with how you'd made connections and what you'd tried with exactly what gear always helps more than not....

I'm sure either way your speakers will do just fine.

 

[rightslot]

Well, hope so.
I never had the money to do anything about it until now. (Not that I'm rich or won the lotto.) But I really built up this system.
My point is---I always read--and believed--that the further up the audio chain you go, there harder ist is to get that next inch of better. And that is totally true.

Quickly now nobody wants to hear a long story...

• Had Zu "weekend" speakers. Good. But something is missing.
• Harman Kardon receiver--very nice, warm yet detailed. But old school and no HDMI >> no Home Theater <<
• Hello Sony receiver--not on the level of the HK but with all the inputs!
• Goodbye Zu speakers,
• Hello Buchardt S400 (on stands) nice but no cigar. >> did't fill the room with sound <<
• Goodby Buchardt, hello Focal 1028. Yes. Filling room sound. But they can sound better!
• Sony reciever not doing good handshaking--HDMI inputs crazy working...
• Hello used Denon 3808ci >> Working Good. Not the problem
• Hello Denefrips Ares II >>
• DAC is promised to get the analog sound from cd/dvd player. I'm not going the turntable route.
• Hello Primaluna--the last piece.

Have to make it work.

 

[rightslot]

Well, hope so.
I never had the money to do anything about it until now. (Not that I'm rich or won the lotto.) But I really built up this system.
My point is---I always read--and believed--that the further up the audio chain you go, there harder ist is to get that next inch of better. And that is totally true.

Quickly now nobody wants to hear a long story...

• Had Zu "weekend" speakers. Good. But something is missing.
• Harman Kardon receiver--very nice, warm yet detailed. But old school and no HDMI >> no Home Theater <<
• Hello Sony receiver--not on the level of the HK but with all the inputs!
• Goodbye Zu speakers,
• Hello Buchardt S400 (on stands) nice but no cigar. >> did't fill the room with sound <<
• Goodby Buchardt, hello Focal 1028. Yes. Filling room sound. But they can sound better!
• Sony reciever not doing good handshaking--HDMI inputs crazy working...
• Hello used Denon 3808ci >> Working Good. Not the problem
• Hello Denefrips Ares II >>
• DAC is promised to get the analog sound from cd/dvd player. I'm not going the turntable route.
• Hello Primaluna--the last piece.

Have to make it work.

YES, I about admitted myself to the mental hospital. But not to worry. Money has run out!!

 

[lovinthehd]

Well, hope so.
I never had the money to do anything about it until now. (Not that I'm rich or won the lotto.) But I really built up this system.
My point is---I always read--and believed--that the further up the audio chain you go, there harder ist is to get that next inch of better. And that is totally true.

Quickly now nobody wants to hear a long story...

• Had Zu "weekend" speakers. Good. But something is missing.
• Harman Kardon receiver--very nice, warm yet detailed. But old school and no HDMI >> no Home Theater <<
• Hello Sony receiver--not on the level of the HK but with all the inputs!
• Goodbye Zu speakers,
• Hello Buchardt S400 (on stands) nice but no cigar. >> did't fill the room with sound <<
• Goodby Buchardt, hello Focal 1028. Yes. Filling room sound. But they can sound better!
• Sony reciever not doing good handshaking--HDMI inputs crazy working...
• Hello used Denon 3808ci >> Working Good. Not the problem
• Hello Denefrips Ares II >>
• DAC is promised to get the analog sound from cd/dvd player. I'm not going the turntable route.
• Hello Primaluna--the last piece.

Have to make it work.

Well good luck. Chasing diminishing returns can be tough....and expensive.

I also got my 3808 used (from a fellow AH member) and use it in my workshop in a 7ch setup. Not sure what you're chasing particularly with the "sounding like analog" thing....I certainly don't want my cd's to sound like vinyl (considering of equal quality recording/mastering) and tape is long gone afaic. After many years and much gear I'm pretty good where I'm at, too. That part can be the toughest for us natural consumers

ps Welcome to AH in any case....

 

[TLS Guy]

YES, I about admitted myself to the mental hospital. But not to worry. Money has run out!!

I can see you have sniffed a lot of audiophool glue and BS.

For a start solid state electronics, is demonstrably better than tube. Just take signal to noise for one thing. Tubes can not compete. The sad fact is that about 99% of speakers are just no good. Far to many have trouble in the top end. Tubes roll it off and people think they are superior. If you had really good speakers then you would never look at a tube in anything.

As far that DAC I went to their site, and would they have to say it is fantasy right out of the back of their necks. I would bet the DAC in your Denon is actually the better one.

The sad fact is, someone probably several, has cast an evil spell on you and seduced you to waste buckets of cash.

 

[Pogre]

I knew I wasn't going to be disappointed when I saw doc made a post in this thread... lol

 

[rightslot]

I can see you have sniffed a lot of audiophool glue and BS.

For a start solid state electronics, is demonstrably better than tube. Just take signal to noise for one thing. Tubes can not compete. The sad fact is that about 99% of speakers are just no good. Far to many have trouble in the top end. Tubes roll it off and people think they are superior. If you had really good speakers then you would never look at a tube in anything.

As far that DAC I went to their site, and would they have to say it is fantasy right out of the back of their necks. I would bet the DAC in your Denon is actually the better one.

The sad fact is, someone probably several, has cast an evil spell on you and seduced you to waste buckets of cash.

TLS Guy, No, no.

I'm not sure we're on the same page--and certainly not within the same book.

TLS Guy. Don't you get it? Most all of this is SUBJECTIVE. No one, has a perfect scientific ear or even thought process. None of us are machines. Don't you already know that?

This is a hobby Just like having a nice car. You didn't need a nice car. You just needed a way to get to work, or school. Once you get past a working engine, and four tires it's about YOUR view of the sound of the engine, YOUR view of the paint color, interior color scheme, etc.

TLS Guy, when you say "demonstrably better" are you talking measurements?
OK now, lets take a break. T i m e O u t.

I'm talking about 3 1/2hr sessions medium to very loud when no one is home. I'm talking about 11:30 at night just getting deep into some old favorite.

I'm not talking about anything heavier. Remember this: Not everything new is better, and not everything old is bad. There is a sound from tubes that I REALLY LIKE compared to solid state. I enjoy that bloom. Sometimes I DON'T WANT the sharp, edginess.

I was only joking about any mental status. I know exactly the sound I want. And I'm almost there.

Just Enjoying the Sound.

Lighten Up.

 

[TLS Guy]

TLS Guy, No, no.

I'm not sure we're on the same page--and certainly not within the same book.

TLS Guy. Don't you get it? Most all of this is SUBJECTIVE. No one, has a perfect scientific ear or even thought process. None of us are machines. Don't you already know that?

This is a hobby Just like having a nice car. You didn't need a nice car. You just needed a way to get to work, or school. Once you get past a working engine, and four tires it's about YOUR view of the sound of the engine, YOUR view of the paint color, interior color scheme, etc.

TLS Guy, when you say "demonstrably better" are you talking measurements?
OK now, lets take a break. T i m e O u t.

I'm talking about 3 1/2hr sessions medium to very loud when no one is home. I'm talking about 11:30 at night just getting deep into some old favorite.

I'm not talking about anything heavier. Remember this: Not everything new is better, and not everything old is bad. There is a sound from tubes that I REALLY LIKE compared to solid state. I enjoy that bloom. Sometimes I DON'T WANT the sharp, edginess.

I was only joking about any mental status. I know exactly the sound I want. And I'm almost there.

Just Enjoying the Sound.

Lighten Up.

No, we come down hard on this sort of thing here. If we did not we would be arguing over superstition. No, it is not all subjective. The route to better sound, is good engineering based on science. When I design a speaker, I start with a concept. However what brings it to useful reality is dogged calculation and modelling, Then the build, and you check the results against careful measurement and go back and modify until you optimize the performance of the design.

Sure you listen to it. However, good engineering and execution make for good and enjoyable listening.

Otherwise people get a preference for aberration. This sort of thin,g can spread like a virus when spouted by some fatuous guru. Just one example. These gurus often spout off about systems having "air". That almost always means that there is an aberrant high frequency rise some where north of 7 to 8 KHz.

If we get all this nonsense here with "air", "Velvety" "chocolaty mid range" etc. then all we have is useless argument and contention. With that no one benefits, or gets further ahead. So then no one wins, just looses, as members get encouraged to put out hard earned cash on nothing more then superstition. So data, data and more data. I can tell you we would never encourage the sort of daisy chain you have put together. So now you have a problem with a system with complexity without purpose, that defies logic. Because of the latter it makes it very difficult to help and advise you.

I do recognize that good engineering is not new to the modern age. I have items in my system in regular use that saw the light of day more then a half century ago, as well as a few items purchased within the last 12 months. Its use has to have a logical purpose and specific function. Enjoyment comes though, after things like the dogged work of planning and executing optimal ground planes, and not pulling fanciful notions out of thin air or paying attention to some self styled idiotic audio guru, whose ilk multiply like rabbits.

 

[PENG]

I was only joking about any mental status. I know exactly the sound I want. And I'm almost there.

Just Enjoying the Sound.

Lighten Up.

I don't think it is that bad, it is just Placebo effect at its best. It is proven, we are all affected by it, if you know what is playing, you will hear a difference regardless. Dr. Floyd Toole even said this about comparison listening to loudspeakers, that do sound much more audibly different than between class AB amps or even tube amps with similar specs.

Anyway, you believe what you want to believe, no one can deny what you heard, now back to your questions, I responded in another thread where you posted similar questions. You seem to have posted those questions in several threads so may I ask you to kindly summarize point by point what your issues are and then I am sure one of more of us will be able to help also on point by point basis. As it is now, I am no longer sure exactly what the issues are because of the scattered information.

I am very familiar with the 3808 as I used to have the 3805 and 4308 for years. The 4308 is basically a 3808 with some minor enhancements. I also have a A21, and it does have a gain control that some people use it as volume control, but I wouldn't do it, except for experimental purposes such as to prove an external DAC is working properly. That's why I emphasized the option of going direct from DAC to the A21 is only viable if the DAC has its own volume control. I have quite a few DACs, and all of them have volume control that allows me to go the direct route, though I prefer to use my preamps.

As HD mentioned before, if you want to go the DAC to 3808 to A21 route, that is the best way to get the best out of your Focal speakers, you have to set up the input mode correctly otherwise you will get no sound, been there, done that..

By the way, which Oppo do you have, if it is the 205, that's on or near the top of all those measured by ASR, so if you have the audiophile (except audiophiles on the subjective group) mentality, it would be best to go the route of Oppo direct to the A21.

 

[rightslot]

Thank You, ALL OF YOU.for any any contribution.

 

[rightslot]

Got it!!

And to TLS Guy>> Not a Bunch of BS. Not at all. Sound is WOW!!

And...Thanks to PENG for your thoughts. Almost what you stated.

The DAC is now included. TV is working. Speakers sound like the sub is on--but it is not! Sound is room-filling, and the stage is taller, wider, and a bit deeper.

OK, so here is the cable/connection route:

1. Just Music: Toslink from Oppo to DAC. RCA's from DAC to Preamp. RCA's from Preamp to Parasound a21. (Aux 1)

2. Movies/TV: HDMI from Oppo to Denon 3808ci. Denon pre-outs to Preamp HT inputs. (switch to HT Bypass)

No need to have two different systems. That is why the BYPASS switch is there.

Just had to sleep on it. We all have to remember the REASON for an AV Receiver. It's a routing machine. There are a ton of I/O on the rear. THIS is what they are fore. But unless you have spent $$$$$!! on a top-flight receiver, the DAC's inside are NOT on the level of an outboard DAC. And it doesn't matter if it's R2R or delta design. Now the last editions of Oppo might be higher level.

(my Oppo was earlier edition Oppo 93)

None-the-less, I can discard any concerns about the Focal 1028's. They are outrageous! THIS is the reason I am excited about audio.

Very Happy. The SOUND is alive with sparkle, not overly bright, and a roundness that is hard to explain but WAS NOT there before.

!!!

 

[CajunLB]

Got it!!

And to TLS Guy>> Not a Bunch of BS. Not at all. Sound is WOW!!

And...Thanks to PENG for your thoughts. Almost what you stated.

The DAC is now included. TV is working. Speakers sound like the sub is on--but it is not! Sound is room-filling, and the stage is taller, wider, and a bit deeper.

OK, so here is the cable/connection route:

1. Just Music: Toslink from Oppo to DAC. RCA's from DAC to Preamp. RCA's from Preamp to Parasound a21. (Aux 1)

2. Movies/TV: HDMI from Oppo to Denon 3808ci. Denon pre-outs to Preamp HT inputs. (switch to HT Bypass)

No need to have two different systems. That is why the BYPASS switch is there.

Just had to sleep on it. We all have to remember the REASON for an AV Receiver. It's a routing machine. There are a ton of I/O on the rear. THIS is what they are fore. But unless you have spent $$$$$!! on a top-flight receiver, the DAC's inside are NOT on the level of an outboard DAC. And it doesn't matter if it's R2R or delta design. Now the last editions of Oppo might be higher level.

(my Oppo was earlier edition Oppo 93)

None-the-less, I can discard any concerns about the Focal 1028's. They are outrageous! THIS is the reason I am excited about audio.

Very Happy. The SOUND is alive with sparkle, not overly bright, and a roundness that is hard to explain but WAS NOT there before.

!!!

Thanks for the lesson. Glad you you’re happy with your system now. I bet you have a Chocolately mids now.

 

[lovinthehd]

Got it!!

And to TLS Guy>> Not a Bunch of BS. Not at all. Sound is WOW!!

And...Thanks to PENG for your thoughts. Almost what you stated.

The DAC is now included. TV is working. Speakers sound like the sub is on--but it is not! Sound is room-filling, and the stage is taller, wider, and a bit deeper.

OK, so here is the cable/connection route:

1. Just Music: Toslink from Oppo to DAC. RCA's from DAC to Preamp. RCA's from Preamp to Parasound a21. (Aux 1)

2. Movies/TV: HDMI from Oppo to Denon 3808ci. Denon pre-outs to Preamp HT inputs. (switch to HT Bypass)

No need to have two different systems. That is why the BYPASS switch is there.

Just had to sleep on it. We all have to remember the REASON for an AV Receiver. It's a routing machine. There are a ton of I/O on the rear. THIS is what they are fore. But unless you have spent $$$$$!! on a top-flight receiver, the DAC's inside are NOT on the level of an outboard DAC. And it doesn't matter if it's R2R or delta design. Now the last editions of Oppo might be higher level.

(my Oppo was earlier edition Oppo 93)

None-the-less, I can discard any concerns about the Focal 1028's. They are outrageous! THIS is the reason I am excited about audio.

Very Happy. The SOUND is alive with sparkle, not overly bright, and a roundness that is hard to explain but WAS NOT there before.

!!!

So how do you level match for your comparison? Sighted only?

 

[mtrycrafts]

So how do you level match for your comparison? Sighted only?

No need to ask. Answer is simple no level match and yes. Trusting what is heard, hell with bias. It was conquered.

 

[Pogre]

Well my solid state system sparkles, fills and sound stages all over the place too.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Well my solid state system sparkles, fills and sound stages all over the place too.

Heresy!!!!!!!!!

 

[Pogre]

Heresy!!!!!!!!!

That sparkles too!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

That sparkles too!

Lmao!!!! That’s actually what I heard. Phil screaming hereseeeeeeey!

 

[Bucknekked]

Parsimony seems to be the order of the day
It sounds you have at first sight an illogical dogs dinner of assorted equipment.

@TLS Guy
My, my , my. Last week the word of the day was "parsiminous" from one of your posts.
I can't have the same word of the day this week just because you used a derivative.
But I can use the phrase of the day, "illogical dogs dinner", as my new choice for the word of the day.

Doc, you can turn a phrase. My compliments.

I read the entire thread and was bemused at several points but refrained from commenting once I saw that Doc was on the job. I am happy the whole thing turned out well enough. With both @PENG @Pogre and Doc on the job you guys had it pretty well covered. Anytime someone says their special sauce DAC is better than the obvious junk most of us are listening to my ears prick up. I think the whole thing came out OK.

Illogical dogs dinner indeed