Sub advice around $1k

[CastorTroy3]

I am in the process of evaluating my home theater for upgrades. Interestingly enough most of the sales people I’m discussing with are advising me to do nothing. Here is what I have:

1. Yamaha RXV2220 Receiver
2. B&W 601s (L/R)
3. B&W LM1s (2 Rears)
4. B&W 600 series center channel (don't remember the model)
5. Valedyne 1012XI Subwoofer

I think I have decided (against all advice) to move to a Denon 3600h which some say is lateral at best but does give me some tech that I just don’t have. I was planning on adding a second sub but through research have learned that I may be adding a sub that out performs the veledyne so that may not be smart.

I’ve looked at adding a similar Valedyne (used) and also at the SVS PB 2000, Rythmik 12f, and PSa v151. Heard none.

My room is like 18x20 with 18ft high ceilings and an open floor plan to the kicker and upstairs loft. I have felt that my problem is not bass (before reading I thought my sub was amazing). My problem with the current sound is really the clarity of dialogue to bass. However, I do like to rattle.

I’m looking for recommendations and advice. It’s likely 70% movies. I’m not really all that budget conscious but considering what I’m kicking around it seems like price range is falling in the $1k range. It sounds like 2 PB 2000s would be a huge upgrade but can I get away with one or what would one and my current sub look like. Maybe I should just sit back and keep the cash (I mean when the salesman are sending me away maybe I should listen and give to charity

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I think you’ve been talking to the wrong salesmen! From what I can find on the Velodyne, it needs to go. Small 10” active driver with a 12” passive radiator and a listed lower FR of 28hz. Sorry. It’s just not suitable. Especially for 70% movie usage. And even more so when considering you have a pretty darn big space, and subs have to work with all that space while speakers operate more directly to your seat.
You mentioned the pb2000. It would be an upgrade in every single way, all day. And, you can get one in the outlet for 699. I would get two. I think they still offer 5% for multiple subs even in the outlet store. Not sure.
Anyway, lots of options in that range, but imo it’s a good buy.
Is 1k the a absolute limit?
And if you need a charity, I’ll pm you my address!!!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

And also, fwiw I think the 3600 would be largely lateral, but ypao sux, and xt32 doesn’t. Lol. At least for setting up subs. Although I’ve largely found it useful, plus the editor app increases functionality.

 

[CastorTroy3]

And also, fwiw I think the 3600 would be largely lateral, but ypao sux, and xt32 doesn’t. Lol. At least for setting up subs. Although I’ve largely found it useful, plus the editor app increases functionality.

A lot of accroynms there but I think you said you don't like the Yamaha room correction but you do like denons. Bit power performance and sound quality should be similar. I fell down to the 3600h due to the audioscience review beating everything I was evaluating it against at a higher price point. Any other reccomendations in the A/R (upgrade). Basically I'm understanding it's likely a better I'd to update front three before buying any receiver).

Think since I'm starting from such a low level sub that I might just be satisfied with a single PB2000. And now 1k isn't the limit. I'd rather do it right the first time and not upgrade for a while. I do need to account for the wife factor in subsize though

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

A lot of accroynms there but I think you said you don't like the Yamaha room correction but you do like denons. Bit power performance and sound quality should be similar. I fell down to the 3600h due to the audioscience review beating everything I was evaluating it against at a higher price point. Any other reccomendations in the A/R (upgrade). Basically I'm understanding it's likely a better I'd to update front three before buying any receiver).

Think since I'm starting from such a low level sub that I might just be satisfied with a single PB2000. And now 1k isn't the limit. I'd rather do it right the first time and not upgrade for a while. I do need to account for the wife factor in subsize though

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

Yes. I was saying I like denons room correction(RC) much better. Some people don’t use RC at all, and I’ve experimented with on/off, limiting the correction range and bypass of the LR mains. Also YPAO, Yamahas RC isn’t very effective with subwoofers, which is largely accepted as being more important to deal with. Ime, Yamahas are confusing with their proprietary language, settings and horrible menus. Many people however do like them better, and they can absolutely make for a great HT hub. Some feel that they’re more reliable too, but I’ve never seen anything academic to prove that.
The 3600 seems to be the darling of the midrange AVR world right now. Yes, you did understand my dozing brain when. When I said lateral, I was thinking of overall sound. The 3600 is current though, offers a lot for the money. Those B&W’s might be a tough load too, but if the Yamaha didn’t struggle, I doubt the denon would either, but it does have preouts to add amplifiers if necessary. In short, the 3600 is a really good value.
As for upgrading the front three. Is there something you don’t like? Or feel something is missing? B&W’s seem to be a love or hate speaker so if you love them, I would address subwoofers and then AVR. Both at once would be ideal but that’s up to your budget obviously.

Subs...lol
Having a large room is a double edged sword imo. It’s acoustically easier to deal with, you can usually have more placement freedom, and can allow wives to hide them more easily lol. The other side is that filling big rooms with quality bass, can be expensive. Luckily there are ID(internet Direct) companies that make fantastic subs at reasonable prices.(speaker manufacturers need not apply lol).
So not knowing how much you really wanna spend I’ll just throw some stuff at the wall.
Depending on room design, I’m a big fan of SVS’s cylinder designs. 2/3 of my subs are pc12pluses. They have a unique look for a subwoofer, light and easy to move, have a smaller footprint but don’t give up any performance to a sister variety in box form. Prices are an easy 699 in the outlet for the 2000 series, up to 1799 for the 4000 series.

PC-2000 Subwoofer | SVS

Cylinder subwoofer delivers effortless output and chest-thumping bass while saving floorspace.

www.svsound.com

PC-4000 Subwoofer | SVS

Iconic SVS cylinder subwoofer design unleashes seismic levels of bass with pinpoint accuracy. Only 16” Footprint. High-excursion 13.5-inch Driver. 1,200 Watts RMS, 4,000+ Watts Peak Power Sledge Amplifier.

www.svsound.com

The newly released 2000 pro series adds SVS’s app control to the 2k line previously only available on the higher end lines.
A quick browse through their site and you’ll find many great options all the way up to the 16ultra line at 2500ea. And beautiful piano gloss black finishes. They also have the BEST CS in the business.

For straight value, HSU is the leader. You can get a pair of their flagship subs for less than $2k. Looks will be more pedestrian, and they lack the app control and parametric EQ options of the SVS.
Another great company is Rythmik.

Rythmik Audio • Direct Servo subwoofer products

I’m making a bid personally for a pair of fv18’s, because I just know the fv25’s would just not happen...

Monolith’s 15” THX is a great option too

Products no longer Available

There are other really high end options too. Like JTR, seaton sound, Mariana, and Funk Audio.
Good news is, you only have one way to go. Up! But ironically “down” too...lol

Ok. Hope there’s something in there to make sense. Typing out loud while shaking out the cobwebs with morning coffee.....

 

[ryanosaur]

That room is very large. Were those measurements the total open-room, or, part of it?

If only part, you are still greatly undershooting the goal for achieving good Bass in your space.

Bassaholic Subwoofer Room Size Rating Protocol

This article outlines our test procedure in determining a subwoofers room size recommendation based on its max CEA SPL output while making room size and subwoofer distance assumptions.

www.audioholics.com

I would look toward Hsu VTF3 or VTF15 subs, maybe the PB3000 as minimum for that room. The Monolith 15, Outlaw X13 would also be good for that space.All of these, ideally in pairs. But...

Buy the best single sub you can allow yourself to afford now and start saving for the second matching sub.

All that said, you DO NOT need to pressurize the entire room volume, but the PB 2k is undersized in that space.

 

[bombadil]

I am in the process of evaluating my home theater for upgrades. Interestingly enough most of the sales people I’m discussing with are advising me to do nothing. Here is what I have:

1. Yamaha RXV2220 Receiver
2. B&W 601s (L/R)
3. B&W LM1s (2 Rears)
4. B&W 600 series center channel (don't remember the model)
5. Valedyne 1012XI Subwoofer

I think I have decided (against all advice) to move to a Denon 3600h which some say is lateral at best but does give me some tech that I just don’t have. I was planning on adding a second sub but through research have learned that I may be adding a sub that out performs the veledyne so that may not be smart.

I’ve looked at adding a similar Valedyne (used) and also at the SVS PB 2000, Rythmik 12f, and PSa v151. Heard none.

My room is like 18x20 with 18ft high ceilings and an open floor plan to the kicker and upstairs loft. I have felt that my problem is not bass (before reading I thought my sub was amazing). My problem with the current sound is really the clarity of dialogue to bass. However, I do like to rattle.

I’m looking for recommendations and advice. It’s likely 70% movies. I’m not really all that budget conscious but considering what I’m kicking around it seems like price range is falling in the $1k range. It sounds like 2 PB 2000s would be a huge upgrade but can I get away with one or what would one and my current sub look like. Maybe I should just sit back and keep the cash (I mean when the salesman are sending me away maybe I should listen and give to charity

The most significant upgrades I have made to my surround system over the years have been:
1. Buying an Anthem (AVM 60 or one of the receivers) to get the room correction. A true game changer
2. after buying at least a dozen models of subwoofers, single and in pairs, including the SVS SB16s, my dealer talked me into a pair of JL Audio Fathom 113v2s and I now realize they are in another league altogether. If I were doing it again I'd just wait and save up until I could afford them.
3. A pair of great main speakers and matching center, in my case the Revel 228be model, but the less expensive Revels are very close in performance. See ASR for objective assessments of speakers. As you know well our hobby is packed with audio myths and snake oil. If you're sick of it, check out ASR.
So that's my 2 cents, based on over 30 years of tinkering and trying to improve my system, I have no desire anymore to upgrade. Room correction, great mains and subs, that's where it's at. And of course a big OLED TV if it's mostly movies
happy listening

 

[CastorTroy3]

That room is very large. Were those measurements the total open-room, or, part of it?

If only part, you are still greatly undershooting the goal for achieving good Bass in your space.

Bassaholic Subwoofer Room Size Rating Protocol

This article outlines our test procedure in determining a subwoofers room size recommendation based on its max CEA SPL output while making room size and subwoofer distance assumptions.

www.audioholics.com

I would look toward Hsu VTF3 or VTF15 subs, maybe the PB3000 as minimum for that room. The Monolith 15, Outlaw X13 would also be good for that space.All of these, ideally in pairs. But...

Buy the best single sub you can allow yourself to afford now and start saving for the second matching sub.

All that said, you DO NOT need to pressurize the entire room volume, but the PB 2k is undersized in that space.

I just measured the room and it is 19 by 17.5 and that does not include the open floor plan so yes the real answer is get a new room. While the best answer is probably to through a bunch of 15s in the room I am probably aiming at some lower target. Thanks for the suggestions and I'll do some additional research

 

[Pogre]

The most significant upgrades I have made to my surround system over the years have been:
1. Buying an Anthem (AVM 60 or one of the receivers) to get the room correction. A true game changer
2. after buying at least a dozen models of subwoofers, single and in pairs, including the SVS SB16s, my dealer talked me into a pair of JL Audio Fathom 113v2s and I now realize they are in another league altogether. If I were doing it again I'd just wait and save up until I could afford them.
3. A pair of great main speakers and matching center, in my case the Revel 228be model, but the less expensive Revels are very close in performance. See ASR for objective assessments of speakers. As you know well our hobby is packed with audio myths and snake oil. If you're sick of it, check out ASR.
So that's my 2 cents, based on over 30 years of tinkering and trying to improve my system, I have no desire anymore to upgrade. Room correction, great mains and subs, that's where it's at. And of course a big OLED TV if it's mostly movies
happy listening

I mostly agree with this, however I'd reverse the order of importance. Speakers and subs first, then the processor/power source.

Anthem make solid gear, but a little pricey. I personally have gotten great results from Denon/Marantz with XT32 in my room.

I've no doubt your sub choice is at the tippy top for performance, but not sure if recommending a JL Audio Fathom 113v2 on a $1000 budget makes a lot of sense. I'm more in line with Ryan and Bill on this one. I'd want minumum a pair of PC or PB2000s in a space that large, with a nudge to maybe even something bigger like VTF-3 or VTF-15 from Hsu. Still over budget, but a lot more reasonably so.

 

[CastorTroy3]

Yes. I was saying I like denons room correction(RC) much better. Some people don’t use RC at all, and I’ve experimented with on/off, limiting the correction range and bypass of the LR mains. Also YPAO, Yamahas RC isn’t very effective with subwoofers, which is largely accepted as being more important to deal with. Ime, Yamahas are confusing with their proprietary language, settings and horrible menus. Many people however do like them better, and they can absolutely make for a great HT hub. Some feel that they’re more reliable too, but I’ve never seen anything academic to prove that.

Thanks WL will start doing some reading in the evening.

I am curious why the B&W would be hard to push.

Also, I was very happy with my sound when I was in a much smaller room. Now the sound is not good just loud. I'm following some discussions on audiosciencereview and The new 3700h does have the option for preamp mode which sounds nice. This would be nice with amps although maybe unnecassary. The 3600h is very low right now if you can find them.

 

[Pogre]

I just measured the room and it is 19 by 17.5 and that does not include the open floor plan so yes the real answer is get a new room. While the best answer is probably to through a bunch of 15s in the room I am probably aiming at some lower target. Thanks for the suggestions and I'll do some additional research

I think you could get away with pair of really good 12s, like the PC-PB2000s that were suggested. Pricing is pretty awesome for those in SVS' outlet right now.

 

[CastorTroy3]

The most significant upgrades I have made to my surround system over the years have been:
1. Buying an Anthem (AVM 60 or one of the receivers) to get the room correction. A true game changer
2. after buying at least a dozen models of subwoofers, single and in pairs, including the SVS SB16s, my dealer talked me into a pair of JL Audio Fathom 113v2s and I now realize they are in another league altogether. If I were doing it again I'd just wait and save up until I could afford them.
3. A pair of great main speakers and matching center, in my case the Revel 228be model, but the less expensive Revels are very close in performance. See ASR for objective assessments of speakers. As you know well our hobby is packed with audio myths and snake oil. If you're sick of it, check out ASR.
So that's my 2 cents, based on over 30 years of tinkering and trying to improve my system, I have no desire anymore to upgrade. Room correction, great mains and subs, that's where it's at. And of course a big OLED TV if it's mostly movies
happy listening

So I am thick. Are B&Ws great mains or I just think they are because they are B&W.

 

[Pogre]

So I am thick. Are B&Ws great mains or I just think they are because they are B&W.

You can do worse for sure. I think the big glaring weak link in your chain right now is subwoofage. I'd focus on that first, then reevaluate. Clean bass has a way of elevating your whole system. My experience was that even my main speakers sounded cleaner and clearer. You don't realize what dirty bass does to your sound until it's gone. I didn't. Getting good subs was a real eye opener for me.

 

[ryanosaur]

So I am thick. Are B&Ws great mains or I just think they are because they are B&W.

B&W has some flaws in their design. It's common to see Low Impedance at Low Frequency with Phase Angles around 45º, for example. Directly to your question, that Phase Angle problem results in a significant amount of heat that the Amp Stage needs to dissipate.
Beyond that, they also do not have the most accurate SQ and the Frequency Response shows some coloration built in.
Shady did a very good review of them:

Bowers & Wilkins 603 Tower Speaker Review

At $1,800/pr, Bowers & Wilkins 603 is their least expensive floor standing speaker. Read our full review to see what Bowers & Wilkins can do at such an accessible price bracket and how it performed.

www.audioholics.com

Please understand, I am not bagging on your speakers. You did ask.
When I heard them, I A/Bd the 600 series against the similarly sized Martin Logan Motion 40... after 2-3 switches between, I had the guy take them out.
On the other hand, others are die-hard B&W fans.
*shrugs

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

So I am thick. Are B&Ws great mains or I just think they are because they are B&W.

I know this wasn’t my quote but I’ll share anyway. Imo the answer is probably a little of both. B&W does make some very nice speakers, and I’m sure that many have the presumption that just because they’re B&W’s they’re great.(not saying that’s you, but possible). People like what they like, and can overlook flaws is performance, just because of perceived bragging rights etc...
IMO, in the range those 601’s reside, they’re a better for the money. Not that they’re bad, just that there’s better value out there. IMO.
Also. I’m a fan of towers over BS speakers. I didn’t look at the spec sheet, but many bookshelf speaker can present a difficult load with low impedance dips, and low sensitivity. Many towers OTOH have more/larger drivers that provide higher sensitivity, higher average impedance and the extra drivers can share thermal, and power loads. Plus, Ime even if larger towers are crossed over at 80hz vs taking advantage of theoretical bass extension, they’ll still deliver better dynamic capabilities above the XO point. Especially at further seating distances common to larger rooms.
I would “personally” look for some new mains as well.
Curious, if you don’t mind. Who was it that said NOT to upgrade? I’m. It planning on knocking them. Just genuinely curious.

 

[CastorTroy3]

B&W has some flaws in their design. It's common to see Low Impedance at Low Frequency with Phase Angles around 45º, for example. Directly to your question, that Phase Angle problem results in a significant amount of heat that the Amp Stage needs to dissipate.
Beyond that, they also do not have the most accurate SQ and the Frequency Response shows some coloration built in.
Shady did a very good review of them:

Bowers & Wilkins 603 Tower Speaker Review

At $1,800/pr, Bowers & Wilkins 603 is their least expensive floor standing speaker. Read our full review to see what Bowers & Wilkins can do at such an accessible price bracket and how it performed.

www.audioholics.com

Please understand, I am not bagging on your speakers. You did ask.
When I heard them, I A/Bd the 600 series against the similarly sized Martin Logan Motion 40... after 2-3 switches between, I had the guy take them out.
On the other hand, others are die-hard B&W fans.
*shrugs

Not offended. I don't know the difference and am looking for performance not sensitivity. I keep talking to you guys and I'm going to drop some real dough. Sometime ignorance is bliss. Also, remember I built this system when I was a poor college student. I remember saying hell I don't really need my student loan money this semister but I will go out and buy a home theather with it. 20 years later and I am finally learning what I spent my money on.

 

[CastorTroy3]

I have been to a bunch of local shops in my home town. 5 Smooth Stones, Sound Installation, and Hoyt Stereo. If they were smarter salesman they would be thinking long term and building in pieces. Ya maybe I don't shoot through $5k today but make noticeable incremental changes with a long term plan to get a little money out of me every year. Additionally, I was told (1) Sides are going to be near impossible in my house (2) atmos speakers are a waste because my ceiling is too high...It has been hard to spend money and I have been trying.

I will say this all started with me wanting to buy a cheap TV. I ended up with a $1,700 TV (which ya I know you guys will say is not a great TV...TU8000 (I just wanted big and didn't want to pay for the best), a bad as new wall unit to hold my TV $2,500 and now I am looking at like $2k for two subs and an amp. So my cheap TV is at $6k now.

Ultimately, I would really like to listen to some of the suggestions but that is seeming pretty hard now too. Almost feels like the best thing to do is to pick and buget and look and independent performance test and just pick the best performing at your price range.

Thanks to all for the help.

Here is a look at my wall unit. If you don't like keep your mouth shut because I need the internet's acceptance

Floating TV Stand Entertainment Center With Bookcases - ECO GEO - Espresso

Floating TV Stand Entertainment Center With Bookcases Item Number: 71181-71111-71111-78271-78271 Search no further, this is the cream of the crop. The ECO GEO is a unique five piece entertainment center meticulously handcrafted from REAL wood. The Solid Poplar framing and Genuine Maple Veneers...

www.woodwaves.com

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I have been to a bunch of local shops in my home town. 5 Smooth Stones, Sound Installation, and Hoyt Stereo. If they were smarter salesman they would be thinking long term and building in pieces. Ya maybe I don't shoot through $5k today but make noticeable incremental changes with a long term plan to get a little money out of me every year. Additionally, I was told (1) Sides are going to be near impossible in my house (2) atmos speakers are a waste because my ceiling is too high...It has been hard to spend money and I have been trying.

I will say this all started with me wanting to buy a cheap TV. I ended up with a $1,700 TV (which ya I know you guys will say is not a great TV...TU8000 (I just wanted big and didn't want to pay for the best), a bad as new wall unit to hold my TV $2,500 and now I am looking at like $2k for two subs and an amp. So my cheap TV is at $6k now.

Ultimately, I would really like to listen to some of the suggestions but that is seeming pretty hard now too. Almost feels like the best thing to do is to pick and buget and look and independent performance test and just pick the best performing at your price range.

Thanks to all for the help.

Here is a look at my wall unit. If you don't like keep your mouth shut because I need the internet's acceptance

Floating TV Stand Entertainment Center With Bookcases - ECO GEO - Espresso

Floating TV Stand Entertainment Center With Bookcases Item Number: 71181-71111-71111-78271-78271 Search no further, this is the cream of the crop. The ECO GEO is a unique five piece entertainment center meticulously handcrafted from REAL wood. The Solid Poplar framing and Genuine Maple Veneers...

www.woodwaves.com

Lol. Well said.

 

[Pogre]

I have been to a bunch of local shops in my home town. 5 Smooth Stones, Sound Installation, and Hoyt Stereo. If they were smarter salesman they would be thinking long term and building in pieces. Ya maybe I don't shoot through $5k today but make noticeable incremental changes with a long term plan to get a little money out of me every year. Additionally, I was told (1) Sides are going to be near impossible in my house (2) atmos speakers are a waste because my ceiling is too high...It has been hard to spend money and I have been trying.

I will say this all started with me wanting to buy a cheap TV. I ended up with a $1,700 TV (which ya I know you guys will say is not a great TV...TU8000 (I just wanted big and didn't want to pay for the best), a bad as new wall unit to hold my TV $2,500 and now I am looking at like $2k for two subs and an amp. So my cheap TV is at $6k now.

Ultimately, I would really like to listen to some of the suggestions but that is seeming pretty hard now too. Almost feels like the best thing to do is to pick and buget and look and independent performance test and just pick the best performing at your price range.

Thanks to all for the help.

Here is a look at my wall unit. If you don't like keep your mouth shut because I need the internet's acceptance

Floating TV Stand Entertainment Center With Bookcases - ECO GEO - Espresso

Floating TV Stand Entertainment Center With Bookcases Item Number: 71181-71111-71111-78271-78271 Search no further, this is the cream of the crop. The ECO GEO is a unique five piece entertainment center meticulously handcrafted from REAL wood. The Solid Poplar framing and Genuine Maple Veneers...

www.woodwaves.com

Subwoofers. Start with one PB or PC2000, it'll be under your budget, and go from there. I'm pretty certain once you get a taste you'll agree with us on your bass situation and likely opt for a second one. Now you're set for bass and can rethink your speakers. B&W doesn't get a lot of love around here, for reasons stated above, but they're far from crap. Maybe not the most accurate and difficult to drive, but not horrible speakers.

Don't get overwhelmed. One thing at a time. Start with your subs is my recommendation.

 

[CastorTroy3]

For straight value, HSU is the leader. You can get a pair of their flagship subs for less than $2k. Looks will be more pedestrian, and they lack the app control and parametric EQ options of the SVS.
Another great company is

When you say the best value I assume you are suggesting that 2 HSU VFs at 1,700 we’ll out perform 2 SVS PB or PC 2000 for 1,400. While $300 isn’t a deciding factor here for me the SVS PC is definitely more aesthetically pleasing. Also what’s the difference between the VTF 3 and 15. Just the hybrid tuning.

Lastly, are there places where I can listen to these things. I assume no since they are all direct.