SVS HT Sub Upgrade Question

[XEagleDriver]

SITUATION: Replace an older, but very successful, SVS PB10-NSD ($500 10" sub from 2007).
- Goal is to improve bass by leveraging advances in driver, amp, and EQ app control technology.
- HT is 15' x 18' x 9' (2,400 cu ft) enclosed room. Four in-line seats about 11' from LCR and sub(s).
- Sub position now is about 1/3 along front wall inside of R front speaker. Dual subs would be inside L and R front speakers due to room layout.
- Use is 5.1 movie and multi-channel music paired with Ascend Sierra2 (S2) speakers.
FYI: Two SB12-NSD's are in a separate 2-channel room/S2 system.

UPGRADE REQUIREMENTS:
a) 12" or larger woofer.
b) Droid phone EQ app control.
c) 80 lbs or less (no overly heavy designs).
d) Either one ported or dual sealed subs to fit in available space.
e) $2k max budget, but less is better.

CONTENDERS SO FAR:
a) A single SVS PB2000 Pro (12", 550W, $900); best cost, ported works well now
b) Dual SVS SB2000 Pro (12", 550W, $1,500); cost OK, smoother room wide response?
c) Dual SVS SB3000 (13", 800W, $1,900) would need MUCH better performance to justify cost over a) or b).

Big question for me is trying to decide if to go with a single advanced ported or dual sealed sub configuration?

Seeking your opinions, rationale or other subs to consider that have EQ app control?
- I intend to chat with SVS next week.
Thanks,
XEagleDriver

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[ryanosaur]

I would avoid the sealed options only because of lacking output at times... or gor for 3-4 sealed!

I would personally, in that room, shoot for 2 PB or PC 2000. The PC will be lighter, too! They should give you ample performance and not leave you lacking. See if you can find a deal for a pair in the outlet.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yep. Agree with ryan. For me, a pair of PC2K pro’s. Done... They’re light, powerful, small, have app control, and two of them come in under 2k.
The older PC2K doesn’t have app control, so even though the outlet has a bunch on sale, they’re out due to the lack of app control.

 

[XEagleDriver]

I would avoid the sealed options only because of lacking output at times... or gor for 3-4 sealed!

I would personally, in that room, shoot for 2 PB or PC 2000. The PC will be lighter, too! They should give you ample performance and not leave you lacking. See if you can find a deal for a pair in the outlet.

Ryanosaur & William,
Thanks for your thoughts.
3-4 sealed would be nice, but blow the budget wide open!

I had not considered the PC Pro version (12", 550W, $950), but will now. Almost as wide as PB (only 3/4" less), but visually appears to fill less space.

Dual PB or PC Pro will be a tight fit L-R and near top of budget in either case.
- May start with one and add 2nd down the road. 1st world problems.
XEagleDriver

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[Old Onkyo]

I would avoid the sealed options only because of lacking output at times... or gor for 3-4 sealed!

I would personally, in that room, shoot for 2 PB or PC 2000. The PC will be lighter, too! They should give you ample performance and not leave you lacking. See if you can find a deal for a pair in the outlet.

What he ^said.

 

[KEW]

I have to ask!
How did you end up with one 10" NSD in you HT room and dual 12" NSD's for your 2 channel system?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Ryanosaur & William,
Thanks for your thoughts.
3-4 sealed would be nice, but blow the budget wide open!

I had not considered the PC Pro version (12", 550W, $950), but will now. Almost as wide as PB (only 3/4" less), but visually appears to fill less space.

Dual PB or PC Pro will be a tight fit L-R and near top of budget in either case.
- May start with one and add 2nd down the road. 1st world problems.
XEagleDriver

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First world indeed. I fed lucky to live in the greatest country on earth!
4 sealed would be nice to balance the FR, but it would take 4 of them to equal the ported version below about 35hz. So for me, sealed need not apply!
FWIW/ 2/3 of my subs are pc12pluses. I like their appearance as something different from the “box” lol. And again, they’re easy to move, and take less horizontal space.
Starting with one is definitely a good choice. Compared to the NSD that’s in there...oh wait. NO COMPARISON!!!

 

[XEagleDriver]

I have to ask!
How did you end up with one 10" NSD in you HT room and dual 12" NSD's for your 2 channel system?

Excellent question.
Built 2-channel system after the HT was complete and bought the SB12s because they were on sale and had 80 Hz high pass RCA outputs (rare these days).
- Paired with an older HK3485 that has an excellent amp and preamp out/power amp in, but no bass management. Therefore, the SB12 filters the signal for me.

Very enjoyable system in my youngest kid's old room which converted into a music room when he moved out for college (plus discourages boomeranging LOL)

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[SwedishChef]

I couldn't immediately find any reviews with measurements on the Elac Sub3030, but Elac is the only other one I know of that has an app. They are 12" with a passive radiator. Two would be about $1300 shipped from Amazon right now. They are not very popular on this site, and I as I said I haven't seen measurements, so they might be a risk.

 

[KEW]

I couldn't immediately find any reviews with measurements on the Elac Sub3030, but Elac is the only other one I know of that has an app. They are 12" with a passive radiator. Two would be about $1300 shipped from Amazon right now. They are not very popular on this site, and I as I said I haven't seen measurements, so they might be a risk.

@XEagleDriver ,
Here is a review of the previous model by Mark Henninger. They seem fundamentally the same - 12" driver with 12" down-firing PR and AutoEQ system. I am by no means up to speed on these, but one thing I do know is that the 3030 AutoEQ app has been revised to better integrate dual subs, whereas before, you had to treat them as separate installs on the app. I don't know if this impacts SQ or simply makes it easier for the user with dual subs.

ELAC Debut S12EQ Subwoofer Review

There are multiple benefits to adding one or more subwoofers to a stereo, surround system, or even a soundbar. With a good sub, you can improve the low-frequency extension of most systems and relieve amplifiers of the burden of reproducing those frequencies. Typically, it's a win-win for your...

www.avsforum.com

If you are not aware, I thought I'd point out that Marantz/Denon now have an app out for Audyssey XT32 which allows you to select the frequencies you want to EQ and afterwards you can tweak the response to get your house curve. Many people don't necessarily like what Audyssey does, but it seems most are very satisfied with how it handles the low bass and room modes.
I mention this because this (along with the AVR remote) may give you the features you are looking for from a phone app and open up your sub options. Of course unless you already have a recent model D&M AVR, it would require replacing that.
Here is the best review of the Audyssey app with XT32 I know of:

Audyssey Room EQ Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Audyssey Room Equalization. Audyssey is standard technology in a number of Audio/Video Receivers such as the Denon AVR-X3600H I recently reviewed. The standard version in the AVR is mostly all or nothing so I downloaded the Marantz/Denon...

www.audiosciencereview.com

@PENG is pretty knowledgeable about it if you have questions about it.

 

[Pogre]

Yep. Agree with ryan. For me, a pair of PC2K pro’s. Done... They’re light, powerful, small, have app control, and two of them come in under 2k.
The older PC2K doesn’t have app control, so even though the outlet has a bunch on sale, they’re out due to the lack of app control.

I like the PC2K pro option too! I came soooo close to getting one not long ago.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I like the PC2K pro option too! I came soooo close to getting one not long ago.

Hmmmm, I seem to recall!!!

FWIW, I think you made a great choice on the speakers. Just a tiny jelly....

 

[XEagleDriver]

Swede and KEW
Thank you for vector, will investigate the Elac sub.
- Have an older Denon AVR in HT now, but not a priority to replace ATT.

- Priority HT upgrades in order are:
1) Sub improvement; as discussed
2) Surrounds with RAAL for multi-channel music; R&R older PSB B15s metallic tweeter with Ascend Luna ($1175)
3) Improve center channel dialog clarity; R&R Sierra2 with Ascend Duo ($825) or Horizon ($1525 ouch)
Cheers,
XEagleDriver

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[Pogre]

Swede and KEW
Thank you for vector, will investigate the Elac sub.
- Have an older Denon AVR in HT now, but not a priority to replace ATT.

- Priority HT upgrades in order are:
1) Sub improvement; as discussed
2) Surrounds with RAAL for multi-channel music; R&R older PSB B15s metallic tweeter with Ascend Luna ($1175)
3) Improve center channel dialog clarity; R&R Sierra2 with Ascend Duo ($825) or Horizon ($1525 ouch)
Cheers,
XEagleDriver

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I have a set of Sierra Ribbon towers en route to me right now! They should be here Tuesday. I'm all stoked.

 

[XEagleDriver]

I couldn't immediately find any reviews with measurements on the Elac Sub3030, but Elac is the only other one I know of that has an app. They are 12" with a passive radiator. Two would be about $1300 shipped from Amazon right now. They are not very popular on this site, and I as I said I haven't seen measurements, so they might be a risk.

Using KEW provided review of previous, but similar model, a concern was peeked by this quote:

"However, in terms of raw output and low-frequency extension, it does not dig as deep as three similarly priced subs I have reviewed: The SVS PB-2000, SVS PC-2000 . . ."

Design appears to be a hybrid between sealed and ported, not a bad thing, but if above still applies to 3030 it may not dig deep enough.

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[William Lemmerhirt]

Would pass on the elac...

 

[KEW]

Design appears to be a hybrid between sealed and ported, not a bad thing, but if above still applies to 3030 it may not dig deep enough.

I think that is fair and I would suspect that the 3030 is similar on that count!

Just to share everything I know of, that may be useful, below is a link to spreadsheet of CEA2010 measurements (at 1 m, so subtract, I think, 9 dB to get 2m result if comparing) by Brent Butterworth of the 3010 (10" version of 3030), but no, if you are looking for the lowest useful output the Elac is not going to get the job done!
Do the SVS models have an autoEQ system, or will you do it manually? How do you address EQ on your NSD?
The Elac is, IMHO, only really competitive if you are looking distinctly for:
1) AutoEQ
2) Compact size for output (advantage of PR over port, but my understanding is port ultimately gives more output)

Otherwise, it looks like SVS is the only option that will fit your objectives!

CTA-2010 results

docs.google.com

 

[XEagleDriver]

KEW,
"Do the SVS models have an autoEQ system"
- Yes, SVS 2000 Pro series (new as of about Jan 2020) has auto EQ via an app.
- I do not know the relative merits of SVS app EQ compared to Elac's offering, but like the SVS sub hardware portion more.

" . . . will you do it manually?
- No, that is an improvement I seek.

"How do you address EQ on your NSD?"
- Manually, but only in level and phase, not EQ per se. I know there is room for improvement in this area of the system.
- REW has too high an entry investment for me (time, learning curve, etc.) knowing this ability would migrate to an app with a better user interface in the not distant future.
Thanks for the help!
XEagleDriver

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[William Lemmerhirt]

The SVS does not have an Auto system, but has 3 bands of parametric eq I believe.

Another knock on the elac, is that it’s only controllable via app. I’d be concerned about long term support. At least the SVS has a control panel.

 

[ryanosaur]

It has been all too well documented that most Speaker Manufacturers seem to fail on their Subs. With Klipsch being a possible near miss on that statement, all of the others come up short in every instance I've seen mentioned so far in other threads. (FWIW) *shrugs
(But last I checked, the 15" Klipsch was being compared to a PB2K... so a 12" was still hanging with a 15". Ummm.)

(On second thought, No speaker Manufacturer is winning on the Sub front right now.)