Coronavirus

[Verdinut]

Some people are really nuts:

>>>A Target security guard broke his arm during a brawl with two men after they were confronted for allegedly not wearing masks, Los Angeles Police Department said in a statement Monday. The would-be shoppers were charged with assault, police said.<<<

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/target-security-guard-assault-break-arm-face-mask/


>>>Three family members have been charged in the killing of a security guard who told a customer at a Michigan Family Dollar store to wear a state-mandated face mask, officials said on Monday.<<<

Three family members charged in shooting death of security guard who told a customer to put on a face mask | CNN

Three family members have been charged in the killing of a security guard who told a customer at a Michigan Family Dollar store to wear a state-mandated face mask, officials said on Monday.

www.cnn.com

Yeah, some people are more dangerous than wild feline animals! Our planet is really sick!

 

[Mikado463]

Yeah, some people are more dangerous than wild feline animals! Our planet is really sick!

agreed, but I suspect somewhere there's a bleeding heart a-hole that will plead some concocted BS defense for them. Does Michigan have a death penalty ?

 

[Verdinut]

I hear that the president is rebuffing Dr. Fauci's opinion on this pandemic and the way to handle the situation. I predict that if a majority of citizens believe Trump's inaccurate statements and he still acts the way he does, there will be more deaths than already predicted by reviews, I mean over 250.000 deaths. It will be a World record, worse than in India.

Opening the economy prematurely in some hot areas will lead to new outbursts of Covid-19 and a catastrophic overload on the medical services, with resulting impossibility to save many lives.

 

[JerryLove]

agreed, but I suspect somewhere there's a bleeding heart a-hole that will plead some concocted BS defense for them. Does Michigan have a death penalty ?

My guess is it will be some "government is bad, don't oppress me" a-hole who has confused "freedom" and "you aren't the boss of me" with each other and, on top of that, suddenly forgotten that businesses are private property that belongs to someone else.

I think it will be the "it's your right to not marry a gay couple if you don't want to, but not your right to require a mask as clothing for your store" and "you being afraid of the tens of thousands of deaths can't trample my freedom to go where I want, but my being afraid of the zero attacks be transgender people should keep them out of the bathroom of their choice" crowd.

Though I suspect elements from both.. there are irrational people enough to go around.

 

[JerryLove]

Opening the economy prematurely in some hot areas will lead to new outbursts of Covid-19 and a catastrophic overload on the medical services, with resulting impossibility to save many lives.

Early is part 1 of the problem.
Wrong is part 2 of the problem.

I think the strategy is that Americans have the memory of goldfish. If we can peak the pain before November such that October is better than September (even if its way worse than now) we'll be "winning" and Trump gets re-elected.

It's worked really well for him. Can you even list the major controversies from year 1? They were weekly events just like now. They were the sort of things that should get a president out of office in shame if not by force. Yet they are basically forgotten at this point.

 

[Darenwh]

Without a vacine herd immunity wont save us.

Good Article.

 

[TLS Guy]

So it is time for a round up.

It is becoming clear that all western populations are getting restive and tired of restrictions. After a court ruling it is pretty much open season in Wisconsin. Yet, far more likely than not we will have a devastating outbreak of this virus this fall and winter if we don't rethink this.

The UK has now lost 275 health care workers to Covid 19 as of 5 days ago. These losses are unsustainable. This is in part due to keeping up with PPE demands and especially because many UK hospitals are very old with way out of date ventilation systems.

I can find no current figures for the US, but a month ago it was somewhere north of 100. The US is doing a very sloppy job on multiple fronts.

The UK has just approved its first antibody test. It is from Roche labs. Apparently testing of these tests are all being done at the secret biological warfare unit at Porton Down. They say the Roche test is the only one any good they have tested. The Chinese ones widely distributed around the world are just junk. Porton Down say the Roche test is 100% specific and will provide accurate information.

I don't know what test France is using, but they say herd immunity in France is insignificant. By the way the home grown test used in California we talked about earlier in this thread was no use for getting reliable data.

I hope the Mayo/Minnesota test is a good one. I suspect it is, but can not know that. Because of cross reaction to other viruses, getting an accurate antibody test has been a huge challenge.

Anyhow the up shot of all this is giving rise to radical thinking in the UK.

So far the Oxford vaccine, as it is now known, has not harmed anyone as of this time. 1000 people in the UK have now received the m-DNA vaccine.

They are confident, I suspect with input from Porton Down they know which is the protective antibody. So it will be shortly known if this vaccine is producing the correct antibody. Since the vaccine makes the body produce the spike protein of the virus and antibody response can be judged. So there is now serious consideration being given to shortly immunize UK health care workers with the Oxford Sars Cov-2 vaccine.

If successful it would curb the catastrophic losses of vital health care workers. Above all it will prove efficacy and safety as these workers are an exposed population.

The feeling it that if this is a success, then the vaccine can be quickly rolled out for world wide distribution.

There is also consideration to exposing vaccinated volunteers to live virus. This is getting push back honestly. There are certainly willing volunteers in the UK. Of course one can make the argument that this is comparable to sending special forces on a very dangerous mission. In fact it is probably a lot less risky than that.

The bottom line is that leaving this virus running around is catastrophic for the world and doing enormous economic damage restrictions or not. The longer this virus is left to circulate then there is the continuing risk of increased virulence. I have thought from the out set that normal rules for vaccine development can not be applied in this situation and increased risk is warranted and justified.

On other matters I attended yesterday's NDMA webinar again. ND is about to open up. Most cases are in the Fargo area, next Bismark, Grand Forks and Minot. Those are NDs major cites in order of population.

One of the Minot ICU physicians is recovering from Covid 19. He was in scrubs and was still coughing a lot, but back at work.

The good news is that physicians are getting better at supporting people.

There is more use of non invasive respiratory support. This came at a cost as this exposes staff. 70 health workers have become ill with Covid 19 in the two Fargo medical centers. This has led to massive re engineering of hospital ventilation systems to create large number of negative pressure areas, to make this therapy acceptably safe. The old Fargo St Luke's hospital have been converted into a Covid hospital. They now have two Covid ICUs in Sandford Health Fargo. One has 20 patients now ans so they are about to open the other.

Clotting has been a major issue, so all are being anti coagulated to some degree, and vigorously when the D-Dimer goes over 1000 and especially if it goes over 2000. The D-Dimer is an index of intra vascular clotting.

One patient got a very unusual, but I understand reported complication of this virus, a retro peritoneal hemorrhage. This was caused by rupture of a vertebral artery. This was successfully treated by embolization by Interventional radiology. One patient has died of a severe Covid 19 encephalitis. Apparently his brain just turned to mush. One patient has total paralysis from virus related GB.

As far as therapy Remdisivir came to ND two days ago. They have a lot of exclusion criteria. It can only be used in early but more serious cases, but on no ventilated cases. The thinking here is that this drug is most likely to be successful if used early like other antivirals. Hydroxychloraquine is a bust and hazardous . Convalescent plasma seems probably effective if used early, but not late.

So that was the round up from ND, with all four major population areas presenting their experience.

I have to say I find these sessions far more helpful than anything else, about finding out what this disease is really like.

 

[jinjuku]

If you want want to be a resistant asshole:

Setup a locked down warehouse. You'll be administered Covid and if you can walk out 3 weeks later you're golden. You'll also get ZERO medical support. You just lie on a cot and 'tough it out'.

 

[Danzilla31]

Businesses Chafing Under COVID-19 Lockdowns Turn to Armed Defiance

SHEPHERD, Texas -- When Jamie Williams decided to reopen her East Texas tattoo studio last week in defiance of the state's coronavirus restrictions, she asked Philip Archibald for help. He showed up with his dog Zeus, his friends and his AR-15 semi-automatic rifle.Archibald established an armed...

www.yahoo.com

 

[Danzilla31]

So it is time for a round up.

It is becoming clear that all western populations are getting restive and tired of restrictions. After a court ruling it is pretty much open season in Wisconsin. Yet, far more likely than not we will have a devastating outbreak of this virus this fall and winter if we don't rethink this.

The UK has now lost 275 health care workers to Covid 19 as of 5 days ago. These losses are unsustainable. This is in part due to keeping up with PPE demands and especially because many UK hospitals are very old with way out of date ventilation systems.

I can find no current figures for the US, but a month ago it was somewhere north of 100. The US is doing a very sloppy job on multiple fronts.

The UK has just approved its first antibody test. It is from Roche labs. Apparently testing of these tests are all being done at the secret biological warfare unit at Porton Down. They say the Roche test is the only one any good they have tested. The Chinese ones widely distributed around the world are just junk. Porton Down say the Roche test is 100% specific and will provide accurate information.

I don't know what test France is using, but they say herd immunity in France is insignificant. By the way the home grown test used in California we talked about earlier in this thread was no use for getting reliable data.

I hope the Mayo/Minnesota test is a good one. I suspect it is, but can not know that. Because of cross reaction to other viruses, getting an accurate antibody test has been a huge challenge.

Anyhow the up shot of all this is giving rise to radical thinking in the UK.

So far the Oxford vaccine, as it is now known, has not harmed anyone as of this time. 1000 people in the UK have now received the m-DNA vaccine.

They are confident, I suspect with input from Porton Down they know which is the protective antibody. So it will be shortly known if this vaccine is producing the correct antibody. Since the vaccine makes the body produce the spike protein of the virus and antibody response can be judged. So there is now serious consideration being given to shortly immunize UK health care workers with the Oxford Sars Cov-2 vaccine.

If successful it would curb the catastrophic losses of vital health care workers. Above all it will prove efficacy and safety as these workers are an exposed population.

The feeling it that if this is a success, then the vaccine can be quickly rolled out for world wide distribution.

There is also consideration to exposing vaccinated volunteers to live virus. This is getting push back honestly. There are certainly willing volunteers in the UK. Of course one can make the argument that this is comparable to sending special forces on a very dangerous mission. In fact it is probably a lot less risky than that.

The bottom line is that leaving this virus running around is catastrophic for the world and doing enormous economic damage restrictions or not. The longer this virus is left to circulate then there is the continuing risk of increased virulence. I have thought from the out set that normal rules for vaccine development can not be applied in this situation and increased risk is warranted and justified.

On other matters I attended yesterday's NDMA webinar again. ND is about to open up. Most cases are in the Fargo area, next Bismark, Grand Forks and Minot. Those are NDs major cites in order of population.

One of the Minot ICU physicians is recovering from Covid 19. He was in scrubs and was still coughing a lot, but back at work.

The good news is that physicians are getting better at supporting people.

There is more use of non invasive respiratory support. This came at a cost as this exposes staff. 70 health workers have become ill with Covid 19 in the two Fargo medical centers. This has led to massive re engineering of hospital ventilation systems to create large number of negative pressure areas, to make this therapy acceptably safe. The old Fargo St Luke's hospital have been converted into a Covid hospital. They now have two Covid ICUs in Sandford Health Fargo. One has 20 patients now ans so they are about to open the other.

Clotting has been a major issue, so all are being anti coagulated to some degree, and vigorously when the D-Dimer goes over 1000 and especially if it goes over 2000. The D-Dimer is an index of intra vascular clotting.

One patient got a very unusual, but I understand reported complication of this virus, a retro peritoneal hemorrhage. This was caused by rupture of a vertebral artery. This was successfully treated by embolization by Interventional radiology. One patient has died of a severe Covid 19 encephalitis. Apparently his brain just turned to mush. One patient has total paralysis from virus related GB.

As far as therapy Remdisivir came to ND two days ago. They have a lot of exclusion criteria. It can only be used in early but more serious cases, but on no ventilated cases. The thinking here is that this drug is most likely to be successful if used early like other antivirals. Hydroxychloraquine is a bust and hazardous . Convalescent plasma seems probably effective if used early, but not late.

So that was the round up from ND, with all four major population areas presenting their experience.

I have to say I find these sessions far more helpful than anything else, about finding out what this disease is really like.

TLS Guy I need to just formally apologize to you and the other more scientific minded on this forum

You guys are right and I was wrong

I know I've been in favor very adamantly of reopening the economy and for altruistic reasons but not like this not like this not like Wisconsin and the post I just linked above

You are 100% correct that this will be a disaster especially in the winter if things open up without a plan

I guess I was hoping for a balanced response because in my heart I just never imagined 30 million unemployed and rising would or could be controlled by the government to make a sustained lockdown work I thought it was doomed to fail so I was hoping something else could be done with policy

I was hoping for something else

I was hoping for a pipe dream

I was a fool

We have no right to reopen to save lives if we just callously disregard the lives of others going through COVID and that's what's going on here I'm going to open up this won't hurt me and f you to everyone else

It's with a heavy heart that I go into work today

I'm sorry it took me so long to come around to what you and others were trying to tell me

I thought we were better then this as a nation I hoped we were

Really hurts to have to accept the truth

That's all I came on here to say

 

[shadyJ]

TLS Guy I need to just formally apologize to you and the other more scientific minded on this forum

You guys are right and I was wrong

I know I've been in favor very adamantly of reopening the economy and for altruistic reasons but not like this not like this not like Wisconsin and the post I just linked above

You are 100% correct that this will be a disaster especially in the winter if things open up without a plan

I guess I was hoping for a balanced response because in my heart I just never imagined 30 million unemployed and rising would or could be controlled by the government to make a sustained lockdown work I thought it was doomed to fail so I was hoping something else could be done with policy

I was hoping for something else

I was hoping for a pipe dream

I was a fool

We have no right to reopen to save lives if we just callously disregard the lives of others going through COVID and that's what's going on here I'm going to open up this won't hurt me and f you to everyone else

It's with a heavy heart that I go into work today

I'm sorry it took me so long to come around to what you and others were trying to tell me

I thought we were better then this as a nation I hoped we were

Really hurts to have to accept the truth

That's all I came on here to say

I do think there are ways to put more people back to work without significantly increasing spreading risk. There are jobs that have to be done on site but which only require few people who don't interface with the public- those can and should be returned to active work. Certain technicians and manager positions don't really have to be around other people. There are probably a bunch of positions that can be restored to activity that might not be essential but also don't really increase a risk of viral spreading. Maybe other positions can be rolled out slowly and carefully with training and adequate protection for reducing spread. COVID-19 will do a lot of harm but so will a economic depression. I think there may be intelligent ways of keeping some commerce going without igniting a large wave of infections.

 

[Kvn_Walker]

Dan there's no right answer for this. It's a (hopefully) once in a lifetime kind of event for many of us. It was a sudden, tragic, massive change of life. 5 months ago I was in DC seeing a concert, having a great time, leaving politics behind for a few days. Look at us now. The divisiveness, the politics, the fear, the anger, the finger pointing, the sheer mental exhaustion. I don't know if I've had it and survived... I don't know if I'll be dead in a hospital bed in 3 weeks. I don't know if it might take a friend, a family member. The black cloud hangs over everyone's head.

Nobody is happy right now. regardless of where anyone stands, or what anyone feels needs to be done, nobody is happy. I'm thankful that I have a job to go to, as does my beloved, but we are anything but happy. we close on our forever home in 2 weeks from today. Excited, hyped... but not happy. COVID19 is a fucking black hole that has sucked all the joy out of humanity.

What's scaring me is how many different ways we are finding it can damage the bodies of survivors. It's not consistent at all. I'm really worried we haven't scratched the surface of its complexity.

 

[Verdinut]

Businesses Chafing Under COVID-19 Lockdowns Turn to Armed Defiance

SHEPHERD, Texas -- When Jamie Williams decided to reopen her East Texas tattoo studio last week in defiance of the state's coronavirus restrictions, she asked Philip Archibald for help. He showed up with his dog Zeus, his friends and his AR-15 semi-automatic rifle.Archibald established an armed...

www.yahoo.com

That's really stupid! He should be arrested by force, his shop closed and sentenced to jail for at least 6 months.

 

[JerryLove]

Businesses Chafing Under COVID-19 Lockdowns Turn to Armed Defiance

SHEPHERD, Texas -- When Jamie Williams decided to reopen her East Texas tattoo studio last week in defiance of the state's coronavirus restrictions, she asked Philip Archibald for help. He showed up with his dog Zeus, his friends and his AR-15 semi-automatic rifle.Archibald established an armed...

www.yahoo.com

Alternate title: Criminals arm themselves to .... well, actually, I'm not sure why the armed guy was there? Seeking a police shoot-out? Roving bands of vigalanties?

 

[JerryLove]

@Danzilla31 FWIW: I don't think any of us are blind nor indifferent to the damage caused by the lockdown.

I do actually understand the position you are/were coming from and it's a perfectly valid one... the lockdown causes harm and the decisions have to be looked at in terms of harm caused as well as harm avoided.

We should make our decisions on the human suffering involved, not the politics; and we need to make sure we don't fall into false delimmas (that the only options are lockdown as it exists now and business as usual).

Generally speaking, the groups (like the CDC) that look at pandemic response *do* factor in the sorts of concerns you have raised (suicides to lockdown for example). In the end, we must pursue the best advice of the experts. We can and should act to protect those affected by the decisions we make.

 

[Swerd]

And here's another reading assignment of recent publications. These are aimed at research scientists, medical people, and the general public.

A summary of where SARS-CoV-2 infections take place in humans and how it can kill. I'm told this is already required reading for medical students. Published in Science.

Science | AAAS

www.sciencemag.org

A very good natural history or primer (for lack of a better term) of coronaviruses, published in Nature.

Profile of a killer: the complex biology powering the coronavirus pandemic

Scientists are piecing together how SARS-CoV-2 operates, where it came from and what it might do next — but pressing questions remain about the source of COVID-19.

www.nature.com

A 2-page graphical summary, published in Nature, of the various approaches to making SARS-CoV-2 vaccines

The race for coronavirus vaccines: a graphical guide

Eight ways in which scientists hope to provide immunity to SARS-CoV-2 .

www.nature.com

I liked the PDF version of this article.
https://media.nature.com/original/magazine-assets/d41586-020-01221-y/d41586-020-01221-y.pdf

And finally, a brief review of nine important but unanswered questions concerning virus transmission, asymptomatic & presymptomatic virus shedding, diagnosis, treatment, vaccine development, origin of virus and viral pathogenesis.

SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19: The most important research questions - Cell & Bioscience

Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) is an ongoing global health emergency. Here we highlight nine most important research questions concerning virus transmission, asymptomatic and presymptomatic virus shedding, diagnosis...

cellandbioscience.biomedcentral.com

 

[davidscott]

Sigh... this is a venting response to no one in general:

When in close quarters public spaces wear your god-damned mask. When you go grocery shopping you don't need to bring your spouse and three kids NONE of you wearing masks. I actually called two adults fucking morons at Kroger right in front of their kids. I wish stores for now would go to a no shirt, no shoes, no mask policy, no service policy.

If you're some idiot in Michigan, at the capital building, sporting open carry and protesting the stay at home, I would love, in my fantasy world, to have a pump spray bottle full of it and hose you idiots down and put you in 3 week quarantine. Those that survive could then go on about their business with no mask.

I'm tired of all the stupid people.

SO TRUE! Here in Saint Johns county FLA sometimes it seems the only people wearing masks in the Plublix stores are the employees (and me). And I'm talking mothers with young kids running up and down the aisles. If I were an employee I would demand that everyone in the store would be required to wear a mask. Un Fn believable.

 

[TLS Guy]

And here's another reading assignment of recent publications. These are aimed at research scientists, medical people, and the general public.

A summary of where SARS-CoV-2 infections take place in humans and how it can kill. I'm told this is already required reading for medical students. Published in Science.

Science | AAAS

www.sciencemag.org

A very good natural history or primer (for lack of a better term) of coronaviruses, published in Nature.

Profile of a killer: the complex biology powering the coronavirus pandemic

Scientists are piecing together how SARS-CoV-2 operates, where it came from and what it might do next — but pressing questions remain about the source of COVID-19.

www.nature.com

A 2-page graphical summary, published in Nature, of the various approaches to making SARS-CoV-2 vaccines

The race for coronavirus vaccines: a graphical guide

Eight ways in which scientists hope to provide immunity to SARS-CoV-2 .

www.nature.com

I liked the PDF version of this article.
https://media.nature.com/original/magazine-assets/d41586-020-01221-y/d41586-020-01221-y.pdf

And finally, a brief review of nine important but unanswered questions concerning virus transmission, asymptomatic & presymptomatic virus shedding, diagnosis, treatment, vaccine development, origin of virus and viral pathogenesis.

SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19: The most important research questions - Cell & Bioscience

Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) is an ongoing global health emergency. Here we highlight nine most important research questions concerning virus transmission, asymptomatic and presymptomatic virus shedding, diagnosis...

cellandbioscience.biomedcentral.com

I think your first link is most suitable for general distribution. It is very well done and well explained.

I just hope our science education has been good enough for the general population to understand it. I doubt it, but I hope I'm wrong.

 

[TLS Guy]

TLS Guy I need to just formally apologize to you and the other more scientific minded on this forum

You guys are right and I was wrong

I know I've been in favor very adamantly of reopening the economy and for altruistic reasons but not like this not like this not like Wisconsin and the post I just linked above

You are 100% correct that this will be a disaster especially in the winter if things open up without a plan

I guess I was hoping for a balanced response because in my heart I just never imagined 30 million unemployed and rising would or could be controlled by the government to make a sustained lockdown work I thought it was doomed to fail so I was hoping something else could be done with policy

I was hoping for something else

I was hoping for a pipe dream

I was a fool

We have no right to reopen to save lives if we just callously disregard the lives of others going through COVID and that's what's going on here I'm going to open up this won't hurt me and f you to everyone else

It's with a heavy heart that I go into work today

I'm sorry it took me so long to come around to what you and others were trying to tell me

I thought we were better then this as a nation I hoped we were

Really hurts to have to accept the truth

That's all I came on here to say

No apology required.

 

[TLS Guy]

Dan there's no right answer for this. It's a (hopefully) once in a lifetime kind of event for many of us. It was a sudden, tragic, massive change of life. 5 months ago I was in DC seeing a concert, having a great time, leaving politics behind for a few days. Look at us now. The divisiveness, the politics, the fear, the anger, the finger pointing, the sheer mental exhaustion. I don't know if I've had it and survived... I don't know if I'll be dead in a hospital bed in 3 weeks. I don't know if it might take a friend, a family member. The black cloud hangs over everyone's head.

Nobody is happy right now. regardless of where anyone stands, or what anyone feels needs to be done, nobody is happy. I'm thankful that I have a job to go to, as does my beloved, but we are anything but happy. we close on our forever home in 2 weeks from today. Excited, hyped... but not happy. COVID19 is a fucking black hole that has sucked all the joy out of humanity.

What's scaring me is how many different ways we are finding it can damage the bodies of survivors. It's not consistent at all. I'm really worried we haven't scratched the surface of its complexity.

Unfortunately I think that pretty much describes the reality of the situation.

There is also the area of statistics. It is hard to know exactly how many have died from Covid 19. This is due to co morbidity, lack of testing in the early stage and the ability of the disease to mimic other diseases.

So in the UK, if you take recorded deaths around 32,000 people have died. However if you correct for excess deaths over the same period as last year, then you come up with 50,000 as having died so far, which most believe is far nearer the truth. I no of know US stats, but I think the number do need to be corrected for excess deaths.

I hope you enjoy your fer ever home as we are enjoying ours. I just hope this virus does not make it a short one.