S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Ohh... you're saying a third VTF--3 MK5 aren't you? Ideally yeah, I know that'd be optimal but the PC is reduced to $699 right now. Another VTF would be $799 + shipping. That's really what got me looking at the PCs to start.

They do have pretty similar specs to each other.
The PC-2000 is a great sub, but the VTF-3 is substantially more powerful. At 40 Hz and above, you are looking at double the headroom. The PC-2000 would play well with the VTF-3 in that it would not overload or run into distortion. The PC-2000 has an aggressive limiter that keeps it clean all the time. So if you did run it to its limits in an effort to keep up with the VTF-3s, it won't mess up the sound with distortion, it will just stop getting louder.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
Do you think they're a clear step up from the Ultras? That's so subjective and hard to answer without having heard everything,
They follow a somewhat different design philosophy. Your Ultras fall into the prevailing paradigm of wide dispersion, where the 1099's and others from diysoundgroup (the ones using waveguides or coaxial drivers) fall decidedly into the controlled directivity camp. Both approaches are valid but come with differences in their interaction with local acoustics. More importantly, distortion is inversely proportional to sensitivity, so at the same volume the more sensitive speaker will have an easier time and fewer audible tells than the less sensitive one being driven harder. Of course the basics still apply: good designs limit resonances and audible tells, exhibit well thought out crossover implementation, with flat on axis response and smooth off axis response.

So I have no idea if the 1099s specifically would be a step up or not. They'll be louder, and make the sound bounce around the room differently. A lot depends on your preference, whether the "more source, less room" aesthetic that controlled directivity speakers provide is to your liking.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
The PC-2000 is a great sub, but the VTF-3 is substantially more powerful. At 40 Hz and above, you are looking at double the headroom. The PC-2000 would play well with the VTF-3 in that it would not overload or run into distortion. The PC-2000 has an aggressive limiter that keeps it clean all the time. So if you did run it to its limits in an effort to keep up with the VTF-3s, it won't mess up the sound with distortion, it will just stop getting louder.
I'm eyeballing a spot that would put it about 6' from mlp, so sort of near(er) field. My thinking is I'll get all that awesome headroom above 40 Hz with the Hsus and shore up the lower frequencies with the PC. Tho I have to admit that a pair of Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2s I found for less than half price have muddied the waters for me atm...
 
Jon AA

Jon AA

Audioholic
One other option I considered would be to buy a speaker kit and build a pair of towers. If I go that route I'm gonna want something that'd make me rethink what a good speaker should sound like. A clear step up from my Ultras. I don't know what such a kit might cost tho, or even where to start as far as a style, best drivers for my use...
There's not much that'll scratch an itch like building a pair of speakers. I built a pair of towers a couple months ago and it has definitely been the highlight of my home audio experience. Not just for the fantastic sound, but getting exactly what I wanted for an incredibly low price, the "I built that" feeling you get of course, and did I mention fantastic sound? :D

When you say "I'm gonna want something that'd make me rethink what a good speaker should sound like." you're really on the right track. While you should have no problem getting a clear step up from your Ultras in "sound quality" for a lower price, you're going to want to put a lot of effort into choosing the right kit because it's not just the cost you'll be putting into it--but all the time and effort as well. You want to choose wisely.

Once you get to a certain "point of diminishing returns" in "quality," IMHO personal preferences take over. This is where you need to figure out what kind of sound you're looking for. Once you have a reasonably flat on-axis response and well controlled, smooth off-axis performance, one of the largest differences between speakers of equal "quality" is just how much those off-axis curves fall--the width of the dispersion.

Have you ever listened to some really narrow dispersion speakers? Some people really love them for music, many don't. Really wide dispersion--various ribbon designs, etc. Your Ultras have very wide dispersion across some of the frequency range but it's not well controlled (at least on the bookshelves, I can't seem to find measurements on the towers) as it is on a speaker like the BMR.

Well controlled happy medium more constant-directivity? Speakers like the JBL 5 series and new HDI series are well controlled medium-wide dispersion. If you like those, you'd probably like the DIY speakers with SEOS or similar waveguides.

Many of these choices depend upon not just your personal preference, but your personal preference in a specific application. When do you care the most about sound quality? Listening to 2-channel music? Movies? Do you like multi-channel music or do you upmix? It's possible your own preference would be different for each application. Are you always alone or are multiple listeners a priority?

And then there are the questions of output capability. How important are dynamics to you? Do you often like to listen (or watch movies) loud? How far away do you sit from the speakers? You have a quite large room--well into the size where Floyd Toole suggests if you like high volumes, you're really better off with a compression driver and a horn than trying to make a speaker with dome tweeters provide believable dynamics and still sound good. Would a speaker that can provide a "full body experience" (as he calls it) put a bigger smile on your face than anything else?

Those are some of the questions I'd give a lot of thought to before selecting a kit. You might not know the answers to them yet and that's fine. Listening to different types of speakers will help inform your thoughts on these aspects. Unfortunately this virus makes it difficult right now, but most DIY guys are very happy to show off their systems so you may be able to find somebody in your area who has built a kit you're interested in where you could have a listen.

Once you have something of an idea of what type of speaker you're looking for, it'll be much easier to zero in on such kits and research them to death.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Gonna put things on pause for a bit while I determine whether or not to keep these...

31497-360x480.jpeg
 
N

NorCalRP

Full Audioholic
Hey @Pogre I think I'm in a unique position to opine here as I have (2) PC-2000's and (1) HSU VTF3 MK4. I do find them to be relatively well matched. When I calibrate them, if the SVS are set to 5 on the volume, I have to set the HSU to 3 to get them to level match before running calibration. What can I say, the HSU's are beasts. I have a smaller space (about half the size) but I don't need to push them at all to get an amount of output I like. One thing is absolutely for certain- the PC's are WAY easier to move around :D ;)
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
"I have over 6000^3' of area to pressurize"

Where are you in a loft or warehouse:D?
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
"I have over 6000^3' of area to pressurize"

Where are you in a loft or warehouse:D?
Open floorplan with vaulted ceilings, an opening into another room on the right and a hallway. Living room is open to the kitchen and dining area behind me. Dimensions of my great room alone are about 30' x 18' and I sit 15' from the front stage. That doesn't count the other room or hallway. It's a huge area.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Open floorplan with vaulted ceilings, an opening into another room on the right and a hallway. Living room is open to the kitchen and dining area behind me. Dimensions of my great room alone are about 30' x 18' and I sit 15' from the front stage. That doesn't count the other room or hallway. It's a huge area.
My greatroom/open floor plan is >8000'3. ;) And that's conservative. And I would have to shut all other doors in the house.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Hey @Pogre I think I'm in a unique position to opine here as I have (2) PC-2000's and (1) HSU VTF3 MK4. I do find them to be relatively well matched. When I calibrate them, if the SVS are set to 5 on the volume, I have to set the HSU to 3 to get them to level match before running calibration. What can I say, the HSU's are beasts. I have a smaller space (about half the size) but I don't need to push them at all to get an amount of output I like. One thing is absolutely for certain- the PC's are WAY easier to move around :D ;)
I stumbled across those Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2s for a song and they've cause me to pause for a bit until I figure out what I wanna do. I got that itch about half scratched now, lol. I just finished running Audyssey, got my subs calibrated with them and they're sounding very good. Maybe good enough to consider making the switch...

I'm gonna sit on 'em for now and keep listening while I figure out my next move. I'm really impressed with these Raal tweeters.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
My greatroom/open floor plan is >8000'3. ;) And that's conservative. And I would have to shut all other doors in the house.
Throw in vaulted ceilings and it adds up fast too. Like you, I think 6000^3 is a conservative estimate for my room.
 
Sealman

Sealman

Junior Audioholic
Maybe I missed someones response in the thread but the DIYSG 1099 has a flat pack and crossover circuit board available on the website.
 
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