Both YPAO and MCACC are ruining my mids.

[PENG]

I am downloading REW as i speak. I can run the measurements, but, if there are oddball dips and peaks, i wouldn't exactly know what about my room is causing it (this is where my gap in knowledge occurs). Hence, It would be a trial & error process for me at that point. I am going to throw panels around and start moving the speakers for a start (the Elac Adante is so backbreaking heavy and difficult to move).

Is there a book on room treatment you can suggest? Something that includes a list of examples: specific treatments that fixed specific measured issues (observed graphically) and so on?

Major boosts and dips at below your room transition frequency (typically 200 to 300 Hz) are most likely room related. My carpet, area rug and furniture in my HT room, combined with Audyssey is all I need so I have never had the need for room treatment, hopefully others who have experience will chime in. Audyssey XT32 is very effective.

 

[Pogre]

Major boosts and dips at below your room transition frequency (typically 200 to 300 Hz) are most likely room related. My carpet, area rug and furniture in my HT room, combined with Audyssey is all I need so I have never had the need for room treatment, hopefully others who have experience will chime in. Audyssey XT32 is very effective.

Peng, I finally got good results using the Editor app in conjunction with the mini! I used it for one gentle bump at 110 hz for the main speakers and it helped my fr! It was a measurable difference. Right now I'm wishing I would have saved those measurements, damnit.

I just wanted to be done with it. I was almost finished and realized I had forgotten to delete the previous settings in the mini before running Audyssey to set up my Sierra 2s. I had to start all over and my wife just got home from work. Ugh. I meant to be done by the time she got home. Needless to say I was frazzled and didn't wanna take the extra time to save and label everything.

 

[pcosmic]

Major boosts and dips at below your room transition frequency (typically 200 to 300 Hz) are most likely room related. My carpet, area rug and furniture in my HT room, combined with Audyssey is all I need so I have never had the need for room treatment, hopefully others who have experience will chime in. Audyssey XT32 is very effective.

One should be able to get fairly close to the full range spinorama data for a speaker if a room is treated and fine tuned right? (i.e. if the room was not a terrible room to begin with and enough attention was paid to it).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The thing is my Yamaha A-S2100 amp and my older A-S801 i use in my 2 channel setup both don't have this issue.

That’s because both of those don’t use any Room EQ. Just use Pure Direct or Through Mode to bypass all Room EQ.

I didn’t even use YPAO when I got my RX-A3080 a few days ago. No room EQ for me. Just Direct.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

One should be able to get fairly close to the full range spinorama data for a speaker if a room is treated and fine tuned right? (i.e. if the room was not a terrible room to begin with and enough attention was paid to it).

No I don’t think so.

 

[PENG]

One should be able to get fairly close to the full range spinorama data for a speaker if a room is treated and fine tuned right? (i.e. if the room was not a terrible room to begin with and enough attention was paid to it).

Yes, but that speaker has to be really good, and excellent in off axis response, and the room has to be not too terrible otherwise I don't know how much treatment you need to throw at it. As an extreme example, you could in theory turn it into almost like an anechoic chamber. Again, room EQ such as XT32 (for cheap) or the more expensive Dirac Live, Trinnov etc., can be effective enough if the speakers are well designed and the room isn't too terrible.

 

[Pogre]

There is a whole lot of snake oil at those price points. I've heard a 15k Vermeer DAC before and ran away from it fast. This is the reason i didn't pay full price for the PS Audio (6k) and got it used for 2k. If i decided to give up on it someday and sell it, i can find a buyer who'll buy it for 2k and cut even.

A dbt isn't easy to set up so it's understandable that not many participate in something like that. I truly believe in my heart of hearts that in an equal setting with no eq in play, both units level matched with a dB meter and operated within spec there would be no audible differences (unless one is flawed) between the DAC in a Denon 3600 and anything PS Audio or anyone else makes.

In fact, you can see here the PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC Amirm measures actually performs very poorly when compared to many AVRs! Is it audible tho? I doubt it, but it should not perform so poorly for what it costs. A person would be much better off buying a Denon AVR X3600H for $549, reassign the main speaker outputs to an external amp and use its DAC. You get much better measured performance for TEN TIMES LESS money!

Denon AVR-X3600H AV Receiver Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3600H 9.2 channel AVR. It was purchased new by a kind member who drop shipped it to me. It costs US $1,099. From outside the AVR-X3600H seems like any other AVR: But the controls feel a lot better than some other AVRs. The...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Now I take a lot of Amirm's comments with a grain of salt. He's picking on the numbers he sees, but his measurements are accurate and he know what he's doing. Whether any of it is audible or not is very debatable but I'm in camp "you can't tell" so...

 

[Leemix]

Its easy to hear the difference between the marantz 8805 internal dac and the PS audio stellar GCD, the GCD measures a lot worse but sounds really good(i probably like the slight coloration). PS audio voices their stuff at the expense of measurements and Paul has mentioned this in several of his youtube videos.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[PENG]

Its easy to hear the difference between the marantz 8805 internal dac and the PS audio stellar GCD, the GCD measures a lot worse but sounds really good(i probably like the slight coloration). PS audio voices their stuff at the expense of measurements and Paul has mentioned this in several of his youtube videos.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Do you really believe they (PSA) actually designed for the THD+N spectrum? I highly doubt that, a) they have to be sure people actually would like those harmonics, b) if they did, it would have been consistent among their products but I don't see such consistency based on just ASR's measurements. It is a slippery slope for someone to actually aim for certain kind of harmonics for the obvious reasons.

Still, I am with Pogre, in a DBT, very few people will be able to tell the difference between 0.05% and 0.01%, let alone "easy". Its not even logical, aside from THD and N, consider the difference between the in-room FR of a speaker even if you move the mic a few inches. That's one reason why we measure speakers in a so called listening "window". And, even if some golden ears can hear the difference "easily", PSA would have to, and must have done I guess, lots of trial and error to conclude the distortions they designed in would please more people than not.

 

[Pogre]

Its easy to hear the difference between the marantz 8805 internal dac and the PS audio stellar GCD, the GCD measures a lot worse but sounds really good(i probably like the slight coloration). PS audio voices their stuff at the expense of measurements and Paul has mentioned this in several of his youtube videos.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Now this is a very good point. Some prefer non linear gear (tube amps and such) or certain sound signatures and that's fine. I just think that folks should know the difference because pleasant sounding coloration and accurate are not the same. My goal is accuracy so I try to choose my gear accordingly. If you recognize and prefer the coloration of certain gear I don't think there's anything wrong with that, as long as you enjoy what you hear.

 

[Leemix]

Do you really believe they (PSA) actually designed for the THD+N spectrum? I highly doubt that, a) they have to be sure people actually would like those harmonics, b) if they did, it would have been consistent among their products but I don't see such consistency based on just ASR's measurements. It is a slippery slope for someone to actually aim for certain kind of harmonics for the obvious reasons.

Still, I am with Pogre, in a DBT, very few people will be able to tell the difference between 0.05% and 0.01%, let alone "easy". Its not even logical, aside from THD and N, consider the difference between the in-room FR of a speaker even if you move the mic a few inches. That's one reason why we measure speakers in a so called listening "window".

I dont know why the difference is so easy to hear, it just has a slightly different sound. If i connect it as a DAC + pre instead of just a DAC its even more pronounced.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[PENG]

Now this is a very good point. Some prefer non linear gear (tube amps and such) or certain sound signatures and that's fine. I just think that folks should know the difference because pleasant sounding coloration and accurate are not the same. My goal is accuracy so I try to choose my gear accordingly. If you recognize and prefer the coloration of certain gear I don't think there's anything wrong with that, as long as you enjoy what you hear.

I don't believe you believe that lol.. You know I do try to be open minded and I think I am, but there is a limit.
It is much more logical to, as you said, go for accuracy, leave the tweaking to the user who can then make whatever changes that would please them. If I were to pay 2X or more for less, why would I trust someone like PSA to plant the kind of distortions that they think I like/prefer in the electronics that they want me to buy? Such approach really defy logic, I think it is just excuse for something that don't measure well as they should.

 

[PENG]

I dont know why the difference is so easy to hear, it just has a slightly different sound. If i connect it as a DAC + pre instead of just a DAC its even more pronounced.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Well I guess that's great for you, just so happen that you like it better than the 8805's that happened to be much more accurate in terms of conversion and then then pass along the volume controlled signal to the next part in the signal chain, the power amp. For the believers, that part in the chain, i.e. the power amp is going to do more seasoning to suit whatever taste their owners may or may not prefer.... Anyway, I am sure you see my logic..

 

[Pogre]

I don't believe you believe that lol.. You know I do try to be open minded and I think I am, but there is a limit.
It is much more logical to, as you said, go for accuracy, leave the tweaking to the user who can then make whatever changes that would please them. If I were to pay 2X or more for less, why would I trust someone like PSA to plant the kind of distortions that they think I like/prefer in the electronics that they want me to buy? Such approach really defy logic, I think it is just excuse for something that don't measure well as they should.

Well... that's why I was careful in my wording by saying "gear" and offering up a different example, lol. Tho I s'pose I could have done better... I'd be upset if I paid for something like that and it measured worse than most other gear. PS Audio isn't advertising coloration so I'd expect accuracy.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Well... that's why I was careful in my wording by saying "gear" and offering up a different example, lol. Tho I s'pose I could have done better... I'd be upset if I paid for something like that and it measured worse than most other gear. PS Audio isn't advertising coloration so I'd expect accuracy.

You and I would. But the guys who’s buying that gear is also drinking the kool-aid. So he does GAF about measurements, he only cares that Paul said it’s sounds silky, and the AQ cables combine the silk with the milk for a velveteen, get down of crazy baby makin potpourri of musical extacy..... baby......
(Read in your best 70’s funkadelic voice)

 

[lovinthehd]

You mentioned that the speakers in the room with your 2ch integrated amps didn't have the issue. Have you brought the 2ch integrated amps into the room you're using the avrs with? It also sounded like you might have your seating up against the wall in the room with the avr? Got pics of the avr room?

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

That’s because both of those don’t use any Room EQ. Just use Pure Direct or Through Mode to bypass all Room EQ.

I didn’t even use YPAO when I got my RX-A3080 a few days ago. No room EQ for me. Just Direct.

But don't you think that YPAO can help to smooth things out in your room?

 

[pcosmic]

A dbt isn't easy to set up so it's understandable that not many participate in something like that. I truly believe in my heart of hearts that in an equal setting with no eq in play, both units level matched with a dB meter and operated within spec there would be no audible differences (unless one is flawed) between the DAC in a Denon 3600 and anything PS Audio or anyone else makes.

In fact, you can see here the PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC Amirm measures actually performs very poorly when compared to many AVRs! Is it audible tho? I doubt it, but it should not perform so poorly for what it costs. A person would be much better off buying a Denon AVR X3600H for $549, reassign the main speaker outputs to an external amp and use its DAC. You get much better measured performance for TEN TIMES LESS money!

Denon AVR-X3600H AV Receiver Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3600H 9.2 channel AVR. It was purchased new by a kind member who drop shipped it to me. It costs US $1,099. From outside the AVR-X3600H seems like any other AVR: But the controls feel a lot better than some other AVRs. The...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Now I take a lot of Amirm's comments with a grain of salt. He's picking on the numbers he sees, but his measurements are accurate and he know what he's doing. Whether any of it is audible or not is very debatable but I'm in camp "you can't tell" so...

Amir and his gang are not exactly the wisest bunch (read a few books and capable of producing graphs for sure though). Many subtle things and nuances in audio and how the the human ear/central nervous system perceives it cannot be measured ( basic limitation of instrumentation). But, I'm sure Amir will claim that his graph is capable of capturing everything.

However, i wouldn't accept the results of any blind test unless the test rat is also tied up to a polygraph (lie detector) simultaneously. Otherwise, audiophool rats, brand name fanboys, etc will lie endlessly during these tests. Bwaaahahaha

 

[Pogre]

Amir and his gang are not exactly the wisest bunch (read a few books and capable of producing graphs for sure though). Many subtle things and nuances in audio and how the the human ear/central nervous system perceives it cannot be measured ( basic limitation of instrumentation). But, I'm sure Amir will claim that his graph is capable of capturing everything.

However, i wouldn't accept the results of any blind test unless the test rat is also tied up to a polygraph (lie detector) simultaneously. Otherwise, audiophool rats, brand name fanboys, etc will lie endlessly during these tests. Bwaaahahaha

Whatever you think about Amirm and his commentary, his measurements are accurate and show performance objectively.

You don't need a lie detector. If set up properly the rat can't have any better than a 50/50 chance of guessing which is which.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But don't you think that YPAO can help to smooth things out in your room?

I’ve seen that both YPAO and Audyssey can smooth frequency responses in my rooms.

But a smoother in-room response doesn’t guarantee “better” sound quality. I have never heard any room EQ improve sound quality.

When it comes to midrange and treble, the best sound quality has always been Direct Modes for me.