Both YPAO and MCACC are ruining my mids.

[pcosmic]

I am constantly having to do the following on "manual" parametric EQ, i.e., boost frequencies from approximately 800 hz to 4000 hz (check attached picture). Otherwise, mids are very submerged to my ears when YPAO configures it for flat, natural, etc....I have shut YPAO volume and "Enhancer" off.

I borrowed a friend's Pioneer receiver and MCACC was doing the same (i had to boost the mids). I do not have to do this when i have these speakers powered by my integrated amps in a different room.

4.1 music setup: Yamaha RX-A3080 Receiver
Elac Adante AF-61 fronts, Elac Adante AS-61 surrounds, Rythmik sub.

Is this an issue with YPAO? MCACC? my room? what is it?

 

[lovinthehd]

So move everything into the "different room"? Problem solved?

Or an eq curve via MCACC/YPAO that boosts mids for ya!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I hate all Auto Room EQ. I would turn YPAO off.

Then, if the bass is lacking a little, I would use Manual PEQ only for the subs 40-80Hz.

 

[pcosmic]

So move everything into the "different room"? Problem solved?

Or an eq curve via MCACC/YPAO that boosts mids for ya!

Either i am spoilt by the fat golden mids on my integrated amps...or why do even flagship receivers have thin mids? I am mostly a 2 channel guy and not entirely knowledgeable about everything in these receivers. If the receiver's not at fault, i am wondering what about my room is sinking the mids? I could treat the room if i knew better.

 

[pcosmic]

I hate all Auto Room EQ. I would turn YPAO off.

Then, if the bass is lacking a little, I would use Manual PEQ only for the subs 40-80Hz.

Bass and high end is not the issue.

 

[lovinthehd]

Either i am spoilt by the fat golden mids on my integrated amps...or why do even flagship receivers have thin mids? If that's not the case, i am wondering what about my room is sinking the mids? I could treat the room if i knew better.

Couldn't tell you, I'm not there hearing what you hear. Got measurements? ADTG has an idea, does turning off YPAO help? Hopefully your integrated amps don't have a mid-boost.

 

[CajunLB]

Bass and high end is not the issue.

He wants the Chocolately midrange..

 

[DJ7675]

Best thing I ever learned how to do was use REW to take measurements. Unless you measure it will be hard to know for sure what is going on. If you measure, you will know before and after results. You can then enter a few simple manual PEQ’s and leave the rest alone.

 

[PENG]

I am constantly having to do the following on "manual" parametric EQ, i.e., boost frequencies from approximately 800 hz to 4000 hz (check attached picture). Otherwise, mids are very submerged to my ears when YPAO configures it for flat, natural, etc....I have shut YPAO volume and "Enhancer" off.

I borrowed a friend's Pioneer receiver and MCACC was doing the same (i had to boost the mids). I do not have to do this when i have these speakers powered by my integrated amps in a different room.

4.1 music setup: Yamaha RX-A3080 Receiver
Elac Adante AF-61 fronts, Elac Adante AS-61 surrounds, Rythmik sub.

Is this an issue with YPAO? MCACC? my room? what is it?

I used to spend a lot of time playing with PEQ, even used it on top of Audyssey. Now that we have the Audyssey Editor App, in my opinion, I just don't see much point spending so much time on PEQ, minidsp etc. In the end you need to take your own measurements to verify the results anyway and then go from there, that is, the base line. Otherwise you are going by your subjective preference, and it would then end up being another time consuming exercise to do manual tweaking until you like what you "prefer".

So my suggestion is, switch to Audyssey XT32+the Editor App and you don't like it, return it for a full refund. I can tell you (supported by my own FR plots too, tons of them) I have no issue with the mids with or without Audyssey on, and with or without limiting the EQ range to 600 Hz or lower.

Yes, we hear every day about Yamaha's products are more reliable, but the recent Denon/Marantz models can be very reliable too if you keep them cool with a $12 quiet fan. Also, if you take a search and count, there have been some RX-A failures reported too, M Code can probably provide some stats on current models on the failure rate, the difference between Yamaha and D&M may be not that significant, nothing that a fan cannot make up for the difference, that's is my educated guess.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Bass and high end is not the issue.

If the issue is from 200Hz-10kHz, then I would use Through Mode on your awesome Yamaha RX-A3080.

BTW, I just sold my $5,500 Denon AVR-5308 and replaced it with the Yamaha RX-A3080 in my living room. The sound quality is as awesome as anything I’ve heard.

If your room acoustics is bad, no room EQ will fix it.

I have heard Audyssey XT32 (Denon Rep demo), Anthem ARC and Dirac (friends), and Lyngdorf (McIntosh dealer). And none of them sounded any better to my ears than Direct Mode or plain Stereo Mode.

However, there is no harm trying out other software like Audyssey or Anthem ARC or Dirac for yourself if you can find a way to borrow it.

There is no way I would waste money and go from an awesome Yamaha RX-A3080 to anything else unless I know for sure that the replacement has exactly the sound I want.

 

[pcosmic]

If the issue is from 200Hz-10kHz, then I would use Through Mode on your awesome Yamaha RX-A3080.

BTW, I just sold my $5,500 Denon AVR-5308 and replaced it with the Yamaha RX-A3080 in my living room. The sound quality is as awesome as anything I’ve heard.

If your room acoustics is bad, no room EQ will fix it.

I have heard Audyssey XT32 (Denon Rep demo), Anthem ARC and Dirac (friends), and Lyngdorf (McIntosh dealer). And none of them sounded any better to my ears than Direct Mode or plain Stereo Mode.

However, there is no harm trying out other software like Audyssey or Anthem ARC or Dirac for yourself if you can find a way to borrow it.

There is no way I would waste money and go from an awesome Yamaha RX-A3080 to anything else unless I know for sure that the replacement has exactly the sound I want.

- The receiver i borrowed from my colleague for a comparison is the Pioneer Elite 904 (which is higher up on Pioneer's product line) and i had the same issue with it. I needed to boost the mids on it as well.

- So, i thought maybe something's wrong with my room. But, as you mention, if the room acoustics are real bad, no eq will fix it. The catch is,,,i am able to fix it with EQ on both the Yamaha and the Pioneer.

- The DAC on the A3080 is second to none and it's the best thing i've heard for a receiver ( i'm definitely hanging on to it). I use this primarily for 4.1 music and music ranks way up there for me than movies. The thing is my Yamaha A-S2100 amp and my older A-S801 i use in my 2 channel setup both don't have this issue. My Chi-fi Jungson amp doesn't have this issue. Mids are fat and beautiful straight out of the box. That's a total of 3 amps against 2 flagship receivers, i've compared.

- So, my hunch now is if these manufacturers are all boosting the lows and highs (SMILE) on their higher sales volume receivers because a significant number of their consumers like it that way. The consumer base for these products is primarily the hometheater crowd and not the music aficionado, i'd assume. I like a neutral sound which would explain why i am having to boost the mids to re-compensate for this pre boosted low and high mischief.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

- The receiver i borrowed from my colleague for a comparison is the Pioneer Elite 904 (which is higher up on Pioneer's product line) and i had the same issue with it. I needed to boost the mids on it as well.

- So, i thought maybe something's wrong with my room. But, as you mention, if the room acoustics are real bad, no eq will fix it. The catch is,,,i am able to fix it with EQ on both the Yamaha and the Pioneer.

- The DAC on the A3080 is second to none and it's the best thing i've heard for a receiver ( i'm definitely hanging on to it). I use this primarily for 4.1 music and music ranks way up there for me than movies. The thing is my Yamaha A-S2100 amp and my older A-S801 i use in my 2 channel setup both don't have this issue. My Chi-fi Jungson amp doesn't have this issue. Mids are fat and beautiful straight out of the box. That's a total of 3 amps against 2 flagship receivers, i've compared.

- So, my hunch now is if these manufacturers are all boosting the lows and highs (SMILE) on their higher sales volume receivers because a significant number of their consumers like it that way. The consumer base for these products is primarily the hometheater crowd and not the music aficionado, i'd assume. I like a neutral sound which would explain why i am having to boost the mids to re-compensate for this pre boosted low and high atrocity.

Sorry but your hunch, is wrong.(no smile)

I’m assuming the bump in the pic is from you and not ypao/mcacc?
I would think a possibly is microphone placement, and possibly the chair/couch material. For example, if it’s highly reflective in that range, it could cause mcacc to do some strange things, like put a dip there, that you have to boost. Also, the distance the mic is at from the seat back can be problematic and cause dips in response. Try running RC with the mic a little farther forward, or above the seat back and see if it helps.
Or try Audyssey...

 

[Pogre]

- The receiver i borrowed from my colleague for a comparison is the Pioneer Elite 904 (which is higher up on Pioneer's product line) and i had the same issue with it. I needed to boost the mids on it as well.

- So, i thought maybe something's wrong with my room. But, as you mention, if the room acoustics are real bad, no eq will fix it. The catch is,,,i am able to fix it with EQ on both the Yamaha and the Pioneer.

- The DAC on the A3080 is second to none and it's the best thing i've heard for a receiver ( i'm definitely hanging on to it). I use this primarily for 4.1 music and music ranks way up there for me than movies. The thing is my Yamaha A-S2100 amp and my older A-S801 i use in my 2 channel setup both don't have this issue. My Chi-fi Jungson amp doesn't have this issue. Mids are fat and beautiful straight out of the box. That's a total of 3 amps against 2 flagship receivers, i've compared.

- So, my hunch now is if these manufacturers are all boosting the lows and highs (SMILE) on their higher sales volume receivers because a significant number of their consumers like it that way. The consumer base for these products is primarily the hometheater crowd and not the music aficionado, i'd assume. I like a neutral sound which would explain why i am having to boost the mids to re-compensate for this pre boosted low and high mischief.

The DAC might spec better (inaudibly) in the Yamaha, but Denon/Marantz utilize superior room correction tech, imo. If YPAO was killing my sound I'd get out of Yamaha and into a Denon. Buying based on DAC specs is not something I do. DACs are a very mature technology and small differences in measurements don't translate into anything you can hear, ime.

 

[pcosmic]

Sorry but your hunch, is wrong.(no smile)

I’m assuming the bump in the pic is from you and not ypao/mcacc?
I would think a possibly is microphone placement, and possibly the chair/couch material. For example, if it’s highly reflective in that range, it could cause mcacc to do some strange things, like put a dip there, that you have to boost. Also, the distance the mic is at from the seat back can be problematic and cause dips in response. Try running RC with the mic a little farther forward, or above the seat back and see if it helps.
Or try Audyssey...

Yes, the pic i attached is the bump i had to introduce manually between 800 and 4khz.

Mic is on a tripod sitting on the couch with 8 measurements taken along a 4 ft span on the couch. 4 meaurements are a lot further from the wall. Couch has a low back. Huge painting (canvas no glass) covers the back wall ( i will be forced into the dog shed if i took the painting off and put acoustic panels there longterm).

I can remove the couch entirely, cover the backwall with acoustic panels entirely, run YPAO and see if that improves it.

 

[pcosmic]

The DAC might spec better (inaudibly) in the Yamaha, but Denon/Marantz utilize superior room correction tech, imo. If YPAO was killing my sound I'd get out of Yamaha and into a Denon. Buying based on DAC specs is not something I do. DACs are a very mature technology and small differences in measurements don't translate into anything you can hear, ime.

Like i said before, i'm primarily a 2 channel guy and not a HT guy. I have a PS Audio Directstream DAC (~6k retail DAC i bought used for 2k) in my 2 channel setup. Without extensive use of audiophool language like "organic", "textured", etc, etc, i will say that the Yamaha appears to be up there with it (whatever the Yamaha engineer may have did with it). I was primarily looking for a class ab receiver with enough power to drive my Elacs for experimentation on a 4.1 music setup. I didn't know much else about this receiver nor had i audited anything when i bought it. The sound quality of this thing came as a huge pleasant surprise. I am sure the Marantz/Denon equivalent is great as well. But, i'm not going to sell the Yamaha and lose money to buy something else that may not sound all that better. I would think they're all equally good above a certain price point (as far as receivers are concerned).

 

[PENG]

I am constantly having to do the following on "manual" parametric EQ, i.e., boost frequencies from approximately 800 hz to 4000 hz (check attached picture). Otherwise, mids are very submerged to my ears when YPAO configures it for flat, natural, etc....I have shut YPAO volume and "Enhancer" off.

I borrowed a friend's Pioneer receiver and MCACC was doing the same (i had to boost the mids). I do not have to do this when i have these speakers powered by my integrated amps in a different room.

4.1 music setup: Yamaha RX-A3080 Receiver
Elac Adante AF-61 fronts, Elac Adante AS-61 surrounds, Rythmik sub.

Is this an issue with YPAO? MCACC? my room? what is it?

Seeing is believing, I think you may want to try using something like REW to find out what YPAO to you mid range.
As an example, here's my listening window average that shows the effects of Audyssey, you can see there is no effects in the mid range as I limited it to 600 Hz (might have been 1000 Hz, don't remember for sure).

I just ran another one this morning, below is the FR right after Audyssey run was completed, no manual tweaking whatsoever, just as found FR.

And I think ADTG must have a near perfect room for him not to hear a difference, here's mine.

 

[Pogre]

Like i said before, i'm primarily a 2 channel guy and not a HT guy. I have a PS Audio Directstream DAC (~6k retail DAC i bought used for 2k) in my 2 channel setup. Without extensive use of audiophool language like "organic", "textured", etc, etc, i will say that the Yamaha appears to be up there with it (whatever the Yamaha engineer may have did with it). I was primarily looking for a class ab receiver with enough power to drive my Elacs for experimentation on a 4.1 music setup. I didn't know much else about this receiver nor had i audited anything when i bought it. The sound quality of this thing came as a huge pleasant surprise. I am sure the Marantz/Denon equivalent is great as well. But, i'm not going to sell the Yamaha and lose money to buy something else that may not sound all that better. I would think they're all equally good above a certain price point (as far as receivers are concerned).

I'm talking about 2 channel music. I'm primarily a music guy myself. I prefer Audyssey XT32 over YPAO. It has far more impact than any inaudible differences between DACs would. By far. I don't think you could hear the difference between the 2 DACs in question in pure direct, level matched and in a dbt setting. You can definitely hear the difference between XT32 and YPAO tho...

 

[Pogre]

And for the record, the owner of PS Audio makes a lot of dubious claims about his electronics and interconnects that he refuses to back up in a DBT. I personally think PSAudio falls into the snake oil category. Ridiculously overpriced products for what you get based on subjective immeasurable claims.

 

[pcosmic]

Seeing is believing, I think you may want to try using something like REW to find out what YPAO to you mid range.
As an example, here's my listening window average that shows the effects of Audyssey, you can see there is no effects in the mid range as I limited it to 600 Hz (might have been 1000 Hz, don't remember for sure).

View attachment 35718

I just ran another one this morning, below is the FR right after Audyssey run was completed, no manual tweaking whatsoever, just as found FR.

And I think ADTG must have a near perfect room for him not to hear a difference, here's mine.

View attachment 35719

I am downloading REW as i speak. I can run the measurements, but, if there are oddball dips and peaks, i wouldn't exactly know what about my room is causing it (this is where my gap in knowledge occurs). Hence, It would be a trial & error process for me at that point. I am going to throw panels around and start moving the speakers for a start (the Elac Adante is so backbreaking heavy and difficult to move).

Is there a book on room treatment you can suggest? Something that includes a list of examples: specific treatments that fixed specific measured issues (observed graphically) and so on?

 

[pcosmic]

And for the record, the owner of PS Audio makes a lot of dubious claims about his electronics and interconnects that he refuses to back up in a DBT. I personally think PSAudio falls into the snake oil category. Ridiculously overpriced products for what you get based on subjective immeasurable claims.

There is a whole lot of snake oil at those price points. I've heard a 15k Vermeer DAC before and ran away from it fast. This is the reason i didn't pay full price for the PS Audio (6k) and got it used for 2k. If i decided to give up on it someday and sell it, i can find a buyer who'll buy it for 2k and cut even.