In-wall rear surround recommendations

[William Lemmerhirt]

That is becoming more and more clear as I experiment. After moving the sub off the floor, I'm not getting as much "boom" and the sub doesn't sound as loud, but it sounds more accurate. The floor is 3/4" plywood (carpeted) with 24" spacing between floor joists, so I'm sure that is mucking things up when the sub is coupled to the floor. The floor bounces when I walk across it to give you an idea of how flimsy it is. I was thinking of trying out one of those Subdude isolation platforms and also elevating the sub about 12" off the floor with a custom base.

The more I look at my space, the more I'm leaning towards a single sub because I simply can't envision having a second within the confines of the living room (12' x 14'). I'm currently considering a 15" sealed sub such as the HSU ULS-15 MK2 or Rythmik E15. There's about a $500 difference between these two, but I'd be willing to fork out the extra dough if you guys think it would be worth it.

Ok that makes some sense. I had to back and look at your pics. I had just absently assumes it was on concrete. So now what? Lol
Placement is even more critical. Not sure how many options you’ve got but maybe trying a single in the spot you’re using for sub 2 is worth an experiment. Of course you’d need to run audyssey as the correction won’t apply.

 

[ryanosaur]

Again, I don't think dual is going to work for me.

A creative option might be to place it outside of the immediate HT area, but still in the open room? (Just helping brainstorm.)

 

[Pogre]

*cautiously leans in, looks around

Single sealed sub... might as well go all in!

Classic - 18.0E

Funk Audio - We create beautiful Custom Speakers and Subwoofers with a great Line of Products!

www.funkaudio.ca

Boy, for a single sealed sub solution, that'd do it!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That is actually one thing SVS didn't agree with. The rep said a larger more powerful sub wouldn't help with localization. I tend to disagree and believe it will be greatly improved with a larger more powerful sub, but I do agree that dual subs would be that much better and localization would essentially vanish with a dual setup. Again, I don't think dual is going to work for me.

No guarantees, but I think most people would agree that using multiple subs might be better than one bigger sub.

However, we have to work with what we have - usually room constraints.

 

[snakeeyes]

No guarantees, but I think most people would agree that using multiple subs might be better than one bigger sub.

However, we have to work with what we have - usually room constraints.

It is definitely nice to go 120hz crossover with 2 subs. I can only do 100hz crossover with one sub, because I get localization starting at 110hz.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Huh. That was a little dismissive.

I never said that simply getting a bigger sub would fix the issue here.
Maybe he just needs a 10” NHT...

Didn't mean to diss. Just throwing out some thoughts. Keep things more interesting.

That NHT (w/ an 80W external amp) is about 30 years old. My brother still has it in his 18x20 room along with NHT SuperZero.

Anyway, I believe the OP feels that getting a single bigger sub might work for him since dual subs are not in his cards. It could work.

Bottom line - a lot of different things could work. Only the OP will know for sure.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It is definitely nice to go 120hz crossover with 2 subs. I can only do 100hz crossover with one sub, because I get localization starting at 110hz.

I'm at 200Hz with 10 subs. No localization whatsoever. Just joking (mine is at 120Hz).

No seriously, I have 8 subs in front and only 2 in the back. I might need 6 more subs in back to even things out.

 

[mossman77]

*cautiously leans in, looks around

Single sealed sub... might as well go all in!

Classic - 18.0E

Funk Audio - We create beautiful Custom Speakers and Subwoofers with a great Line of Products!

www.funkaudio.ca

Oh wow, yeah, I don't think I can swing that. I'd be willing to go up to $1,500 if I knew it was going to be THAT good. Here are the three I am considering at the moment in no particular order. Keep in mind I mostly want a sub that sounds best with music, then video games and movies.

REL HT/1508 Predator ($1,499)
HSU ULS-15 MK2 ($860)
Rythmik FP15 ($1,282)

Some specs to facilitate comparison:

REL HT/1508 Predator:

Type

Closed box, front firing driver

Active Driver Size & Material

15 in., carbon fiber reinforced cone with inverted carbon fiber centre cap

Passive Radiator Size & Material

Low Frequency Extention

-6dB at 21Hz

Input Connectors

Low Level stereo RCA, LFE RCA, LFE XLR

Output Connectors

Low Level stereo RCA, LFE RCA, LFE XLR

Power Output

800 watts (RMS)

Amplifier Type

Class D

Wireless Capability

HT Air Wireless (Optional), Zero Compression Single Large Scale Integrated Chip

W x H x D
19.7 x 18 x 19.4 in. (500 x 457 x 492 mm)

Net Weight
79.4 lbs. (36 kg)

Finish
Black Vinyl

HSU ULS-15 MK2:

Amplifier Power (RMS)​	2000 W Short Term, 600 W Continuous​
Frequency Response​	20 - 200 Hz, +/-1 dB​
Woofer​	15 Inch​
Q Control Range​	0.3 - 0.7​
Crossover​	30 - 90 Hz, Bypassable​
Crossover Slope​	24 dB/Oct​
Phase​	0°/180°​
Inputs​	Balanced XLR (2), Line Level (2), Speaker Level (2)​
Power Outlet Requirement​	720 W, 120/240V​
Enclosure Dimensions​	18" H x 18" W x 18" D​
Dimensions with Grill, Feet & Amp​	19" H x 18" W x 191⁄2"D​
Weight​	65 lbs​
Warranty​	7-years on Woofer, 2-years on Electronics​
​	Designed and Engineered in the U.S.A.​

Rythmik FP15:

Driver	DS1510 15" high excursion with custom sensing coil
Driver materials	Black anodized aluminum with rubber surround
	Cast aluminum basket
	Aluminum flux de-modulation shorting rings
Amplifier	600 RMS class H patented servo controlled
Dimensions	19"(W) x 19 " (H )x 20 "(D) - (21-1/2" D with grille)
Shipping Weight	108 lbs
Frequency Response	14 - 200 Hz (0db/-2db) with LFE inputs
	10 - 250Hz (+/-3db) with LFE inputs
	14 - 90 Hz (-2 dB @ 14 Hz) with LINE IN inputs
Crossover slope	Selectable 12 or 24 dB / octave (PEQ and XLR versions)
Crossover range (Low pass)	25 - 100Hz
Rumble Filter (High pass )	20 Hz 18 dB / octave
Phase response	90 degrees phase shift at 20 Hz (measuring mic has 18 degrees shift)
Phase adjustment	0 - 180 degrees continuously variable
Bass damping factor settings	high (Q=0.5), med (Q=0.7), and low (Q=1.1)
Finishes	Available in black oak and black matte vinyl
Warranty	5 years warranty on driver and 3 years on electronics
	45 day satisfaction guarantee

 

[mossman77]

Ok that makes some sense. I had to back and look at your pics. I had just absently assumes it was on concrete. So now what? Lol
Placement is even more critical. Not sure how many options you’ve got but maybe trying a single in the spot you’re using for sub 2 is worth an experiment. Of course you’d need to run audyssey as the correction won’t apply.

I moved the sub to that location the other night and it did not perform well at all, but I had not run Audyssey. I'll move it again and run Audyssey to see what happens.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I moved the sub to that location the other night and it did not perform well at all, but I had not run Audyssey. I'll move it again and run Audyssey to see what happens.

That’s definitely important. Especially if audyssey is trying to pull down a peak, then you place the sub where there isn’t a peak, audyssey is still pulling down that frequency or frequencies.

 

[Pogre]

That is actually one thing SVS didn't agree with. The rep said a larger more powerful sub wouldn't help with localization. I tend to disagree and believe it will be greatly improved with a larger more powerful sub, but I do agree that dual subs would be that much better and localization would essentially vanish with a dual setup. Again, I don't think dual is going to work for me.

Localization has more to do with frequency than driver size. With your speakers I think a higher crossover probably sounds best, but makes it more localizable. 80 hz and down is the number I see most often to avoid it.

 

[ryanosaur]

I moved the sub to that location the other night and it did not perform well at all, but I had not run Audyssey. I'll move it again and run Audyssey to see what happens.

Mossy, if you haven't tried it before, I would recommend as an experiment the Subwoofer Crawl. It's crude, but an effective technique for understanding some of the LF Acoustics in your room. All rooms are different. so what works for you, there, with that equipment might not work in the next room you install it in, much less for Joe down the street.
The idea of putting your Sub at you Main LP and then crawling around the room listening to the sound near where the Sub might be placed is based on the reflections of those soundwaves. You should, in theory, be able to find a location where the sub sounds great via the crawl... move the sub to that location, and hear it exactly the same when you sit at your LP. (Acoustics are fun like that sometimes.)
I suggest this for no other reason than just being able to hear how the LF Soundwaves change as you move around the room. Hell, I would go up and listen on the balcony, too!

Crawling for Bass - Subwoofer Placement Tips

Do the Subwoofer Crawl. It's the easiest way to find the proper placement location for your subwoofer to get the best performance and sound.

www.audioholics.com

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Localization has more to do with frequency than driver size. With your speakers I think a higher crossover probably sounds best, but makes it more localizable. 80 hz and down is the number I see most often to avoid it.

Interestingly, I’ve seen various(but not a great deal) posts by customers quoting SVS reps that imo gave advice that was odd, to later follow forum advice to better results. Anyway...

 

[mossman77]

Mossy, if you haven't tried it before, I would recommend as an experiment the Subwoofer Crawl. It's crude, but an effective technique for understanding some of the LF Acoustics in your room. All rooms are different. so what works for you, there, with that equipment might not work in the next room you install it in, much less for Joe down the street.
The idea of putting your Sub at you Main LP and then crawling around the room listening to the sound near where the Sub might be placed is based on the reflections of those soundwaves. You should, in theory, be able to find a location where the sub sounds great via the crawl... move the sub to that location, and hear it exactly the same when you sit at your LP. (Acoustics are fun like that sometimes.)
I suggest this for no other reason than just being able to hear how the LF Soundwaves change as you move around the room. Hell, I would go up and listen on the balcony, too!

Crawling for Bass - Subwoofer Placement Tips

Do the Subwoofer Crawl. It's the easiest way to find the proper placement location for your subwoofer to get the best performance and sound.

www.audioholics.com

I read about the subwoofer crawl the other day, and I do plan on doing that. I need to get a longer sub cable first!

 

[Pogre]

Interestingly, I’ve seen various(but not a great deal) posts by customers quoting SVS reps that imo gave advice that was odd, to later follow forum advice to better results. Anyway...

His reply that I quoted is easily taken out of context. The SVS rep did agree that sub size wouldn't make a difference.

 

[mossman77]

Localization has more to do with frequency than driver size. With your speakers I think a higher crossover probably sounds best, but makes it more localizable. 80 hz and down is the number I see most often to avoid it.

Audyssey set the xover for the fronts at 100 Hz and the center at 80Hz, but I switched the fronts back to 80Hz and it sounds pretty good. If the fronts are at 100Hz and center at 80Hz, does the sub get crossed over at 100Hz or 80Hz?

 

[Pogre]

I read about the subwoofer crawl the other day, and I do plan on doing that. I need to get a longer sub cable first!

I think that'd be a great exercise for you! Ryan isn't kidding about trying the balcony either. You never know where the best spot is until you experiment a little.

 

[Pogre]

Audyssey set the xover for the fronts at 100 Hz and the center at 80Hz, but I switched the fronts back to 80Hz and it sounds pretty good. If the fronts are at 100Hz and center at 80Hz, does the sub get crossed over at 100Hz or 80Hz?

That's a good question. One I would like to know the answer to myself!

*Edit: I'm assuming for 2 channel music it would cross over with your main speakers.

 

[mossman77]

I think that'd be a great exercise for you! Ryan isn't kidding about trying the balcony either. You never know where the best spot is until you experiment a little.

I could certainly manage two subs if one of them is placed on the balcony

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Audyssey set the xover for the fronts at 100 Hz and the center at 80Hz, but I switched the fronts back to 80Hz and it sounds pretty good. If the fronts are at 100Hz and center at 80Hz, does the sub get crossed over at 100Hz or 80Hz?

Lol. Both!

The XO sends redirected bass from the mains in this case below 100 and from the cc, below 80. I personally don’t like higher than 80 or 90. While the bass can be fuller that way, it intrudes on my mains so...

Edit: it’s also why I’ve had better luck with a universal XO. For a loooong time I used 50hz on my mains but have used 80 for a few years now. Always use LPF of LFE at full 120hz though.