In-wall rear surround recommendations

[Pogre]

The prices in all of those links are pair prices (2 subwoofers) hence "Dual Drive Package". You have to pay shipping too unless you live in California (where the company is located) so don't forget to factor that in too. Still, even with shipping it's gonna be hard to beat those prices for 2 high quality subs like those. Hsu is right up there with SVS in the sub world.

 

[mossman77]

That said, I would suggest possibly a pair of Hsu ULS-15 MK2s with it in mind that a pair of ported VTF-15H MK2s or VTF-3 MK5s would be ideal, I think, for your space. The ULS is sealed tho and a smaller form factor, but still big enough and powerful enough to make a noticeable difference If you're gonna get out of SVS those are my suggestions for your best bang for buck.

Okay, thanks. I'll check them out.

Came across this guy last night. Seems to know his stuff (this specific video isn't directly related to our discussion)

 

[Pogre]

Okay, thanks. I'll check them out.

Came across this guy last night. Seems to know his stuff (this specific video isn't directly related to our discussion)

I haven't seen any of his videos before, but I'll give that a watch.

I don't know if you saw my follow up post about the pricing in those links. All 3 prices are for 2 units. The more I think about it, the more I think a pair of ULS-15 MK2s would perform really well for you. They might be a little bit bigger than you want but they're a sealed design so not huge by big sub standards and they really pack a punch.

The prices in all of those links are pair prices (2 subwoofers) hence "Dual Drive Package". You have to pay shipping too unless you live in California (where the company is located) so don't forget to factor that in too. Still, even with shipping it's gonna be hard to beat those prices for 2 high quality subs like those. Hsu is right up there with SVS in the sub world.

 

[mossman77]

I haven't seen any of his videos before, but I'll give that a watch.

I don't know if you saw my follow up post about the pricing in those links. All 3 prices are for 2 units. The more I think about it, the more I think a pair of ULS-15 MK2s would perform really well for you. They might be a little bit bigger than you want but they're a sealed design so not huge by big sub standards and they really pack a punch.

Right, I saw that. Two 15's would be insanely loud I think, but I like the sound of that.

I just realized my receiver (Marantz SR5012) doesn't seem to have a secind subwoofer listed in the speaker menu. How am I to set the distances for each sub independently and how is Audyssey going to know there is a second sub that requires calibration? Does it not make a difference how many subs there are and it just treats them as if they are one and calibrates based on what the mic picks up collectively?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Here's a cross section of the space, which comprises the living room, dining room, foyer, upper balcony and open/vaulted area. The SPL is at least twice as loud in the main listening position (MLP) and anywhere under the balcony floor and also at least twice as loud on the balcony. Even louder when standing in the corners of the room downstairs and the balcony. This is why I believe I am able to get away with a single SB1000 in this space. If there was no balcony/ceiling above the MLP, it would be woefully inadequate.

View attachment 34561

So it’s mainly a 12ft x 12ft room, which is kind of small. I don’t think you need more sub. I would try playing around with your current sub - different XO, different location.

Also, is the bass localization mainly with some specific materials or most bass materials?

In my previous house the living room was 18’ x 20’ x 10’ ceiling open to Formal Living room, Kitchen, Breakfast room. I was using a single 10” NHT SW2P Sub with 80 watts. I got pretty good earthquake bass. I don’t recall any localization. The XO was probably 80Hz or 100Hz.

But I suppose not all subs are the same.

 

[Pogre]

So it’s mainly a 12ft x 12ft room, which is kind of small. I don’t think you need more sub. I would try playing around with your current sub - different XO, different location.

Also, is the bass localization mainly with some specific materials or most bass materials?

In my previous house the living room was 18’ x 20’ x 10’ ceiling with an open floor plan. I was using a single 10” NHT SW2P Sub with 80 watts. I got pretty good earthquake bass. I don’t recall any localization. The XO was probably 80Hz or 100Hz.

But I suppose not all subs are the same.

That's one section of his room. It's open to much more space. ~5000^3 or more.

We've been telling him he needs some more subwoofage and you come in and dismantle it all in one fell swoop!

 

[mossman77]

That's one section of his room. It's open to much more space. ~5000^3 or more.

We've been telling him he needs some more subwoofage and you come in and dismantle it all in one fell swoop!

Haha. Turns out I only need one 6.5" sub!? Just kidding.

I'm experimenting a little and decided to raise the sub off the floor 24" and it sounds even better. Better response and my front stage sounds different/wider and more clear. Crazy.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's one section of his room. It's open to much more space. ~5000^3 or more.

We've been telling him he needs some more subwoofage and you come in and dismantle it all in one fell swoop!

My previous room was open to more volume than 9,000 CF.

He hasn’t even measured the current room yet, correct?

It seems like he might just continue to play around with the setup in the meantime.

We already saved him money on 2 amps. Why not 2 more subs?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

My previous room was open to more volume than 9,000 CF.

He hasn’t even measured the current room yet, correct?

It seems like he might just continue to play around with the setup in the meantime.

We already saved him money on 2 amps. Why not 2 more subs?

Oh yeah, how many subs do you have?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Oh yeah, how many subs do you have?

Well now I have 10 subs in my 8,000 CF HT.

But in my previous living room, I only used one 10" sub - and the living room was very open to 3 sides - formal living, formal dining, kitchen, breakfast.

There is definitely a lot more to it than just looking at the volume of the total OPEN area. Sure, total volume factors in. But I think the distance you sit from your sub and the location of the sub to the corners/walls matter more.

And, of course, the actual subwoofer also matters.

But it's not just about total volume of OPEN room vs size of the subwoofer.

The SB1000 seems to be performing well and the gain is set to the middle of what it is capable.

recommended the SB-16 Ultra, but that thing is simply too large...I don't have the space for two of the PC-2000

 

[snakeeyes]

Only 10 subs.... Now I’m super jealous of ADTG. LOL

 

[Pogre]

My previous room was open to more volume than 9,000 CF.

He hasn’t even measured the current room yet, correct?

It seems like he might just continue to play around with the setup in the meantime.

We already saved him money on 2 amps. Why not 2 more subs?

Over the last 9 pages he's tried a lot of what you suggested with different crossovers and locations. I must say tho, you and Bill just cracked me up, lol.

Oh yeah, how many subs do you have?

Well now I have 10 subs in my 8,000 CF HT.

lol. What speakers did you have also, with that little single sub?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Well now I have 10 subs in my 8,000 CF HT.

But in my previous living room, I only used one 10" sub - and the living room was very open to 3 sides - formal living, formal dining, kitchen, breakfast.

There is definitely a lot more to it than just looking at the volume of the total OPEN area. Sure, total volume factors in. But I think the distance you sit from your sub and the location of the sub to the corners/walls matter more.

And, of course, the actual subwoofer also matters.

But it's not just about total volume of OPEN room vs size of the subwoofer.

I think OVERKILL applies to not only amps, but also to speakers, subs, and everything else in this hobby.

While I find the assessment of your 10” NHT to be extremely generous, I have to say I definitely agree with the rest of your statement here. Something overlooked very often is floor construction. I’ve been in many rooms that are the top of a split level, on suspended floor that transfer bass into the room very easily. Many times this bass is not very clear though. This may have been the case if your NHT.
Concrete on the other hand, eats TR and can swallow bass up, but imo can help keep it cleaner by not allowing the room to contribute audibly. As you mentioned, room shape an LP location are big factors too. Case in point is the OP. He’s up against the wall, with a short overhanging ceiling directly above. Not sure of that low ceilings contribution but I’m sure it’s there.
IMO much of the bass mossman is experiencing is a big peak(frequency unknown) and I’m certain many parts of the FR is very low(dips) in comparison. I think the solution here is a more powerful sub that can stay linear as he asks for more output, and if not a second one, make sure at least that the single sub has a way to pull down whatever peaks are at the LP by being backed up to the wall. Better sub location should possibly be explored if possible as well. Sorry, but there’s no way an SB1000 is staying clean and linear in that size room. So while my point is partially about more bass, it’s actually about mo bettah bass.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Only 10 subs.... Now I’m super jealous of ADTG. LOL

Don't GET jealous. Get more subs. Tell your wife and everyone that you want a sub for Christmas every year.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

While I find the assessment of your 10” NHT to be extremely generous, I have to say I definitely agree with the rest of your statement here. Something overlooked very often is floor construction. I’ve been in many rooms that are the top of a split level, on suspended floor that transfer bass into the room very easily. Many times this bass is not very clear though. This may have been the case if your NHT.
Concrete on the other hand, eats TR and can swallow bass up, but imo can help keep it cleaner by not allowing the room to contribute audibly. As you mentioned, room shape an LP location are big factors too. Case in point is the OP. He’s up against the wall, with a short overhanging ceiling directly above. Not sure of that low ceilings contribution but I’m sure it’s there.
IMO much of the bass mossman is experiencing is a big peak(frequency unknown) and I’m certain many parts of the FR is very low(dips) in comparison. I think the solution here is a more powerful sub that can stay linear as he asks for more output, and if not a second one, make sure at least that the single sub has a way to pull down whatever peaks are at the LP by being backed up to the wall. Better sub location should possibly be explored if possible as well. Sorry, but there’s no way an SB1000 is staying clean and linear in that size room. So while my point is partially about more bass, it’s actually about mo bettah bass.

Well, I can't argue about better bass. You get what you pay for.

Shoot, I'm all game in finding out if getting a bigger sub will eliminate this localization. Go for it.

Commercial Break Over - we now return to your regular programming - upgrading to a bigger SVS sub.

 

[mossman77]

IMO much of the bass mossman is experiencing is a big peak(frequency unknown) and I’m certain many parts of the FR is very low(dips) in comparison. I think the solution here is a more powerful sub that can stay linear as he asks for more output, and if not a second one, make sure at least that the single sub has a way to pull down whatever peaks are at the LP by being backed up to the wall. Better sub location should possibly be explored if possible as well. Sorry, but there’s no way an SB1000 is staying clean and linear in that size room. So while my point is partially about more bass, it’s actually about mo bettah bass.

That is becoming more and more clear as I experiment. After moving the sub off the floor, I'm not getting as much "boom" and the sub doesn't sound as loud, but it sounds more accurate. The floor is 3/4" plywood (carpeted) with 24" spacing between floor joists, so I'm sure that is mucking things up when the sub is coupled to the floor. The floor bounces when I walk across it to give you an idea of how flimsy it is. I was thinking of trying out one of those Subdude isolation platforms and also elevating the sub about 12" off the floor with a custom base.

The more I look at my space, the more I'm leaning towards a single sub because I simply can't envision having a second within the confines of the living room (12' x 14'). I'm currently considering a 15" sealed sub such as the HSU ULS-15 MK2 or Rythmik E15. There's about a $500 difference between these two, but I'd be willing to fork out the extra dough if you guys think it would be worth it.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Well, I can't argue about better bass. You get what you pay for.

Shoot, I'm all game in finding out if getting a bigger sub will eliminate this localization. Go for it.

Commercial Break Over - we now return to your regular programming - upgrading to a bigger SVS sub.

Huh. That was a little dismissive.

I never said that simply getting a bigger sub would fix the issue here.
Maybe he just needs a 10” NHT...

 

[mossman77]

Shoot, I'm all game in finding out if getting a bigger sub will eliminate this localization. Go for it.

That is actually one thing SVS didn't agree with. The rep said a larger more powerful sub wouldn't help with localization. I tend to disagree and believe it will be greatly improved with a larger more powerful sub, but I do agree that dual subs would be that much better and localization would essentially vanish with a dual setup. Again, I don't think dual is going to work for me.

 

[Pogre]

That is becoming more and more clear as I experiment. After moving the sub off the floor, I'm not getting as much "boom" and the sub doesn't sound as loud, but it sounds more accurate. The floor is 3/4" plywood (carpeted) with 24" spacing between floor joists, so I'm sure that is mucking things up when the sub is coupled to the floor. The floor bounces when I walk across it to give you an idea of how flimsy it is. I was thinking of trying out one of those Subdude isolation platforms and also elevating the sub about 12" off the floor with a custom base.

The more I look at my space, the more I'm leaning towards a single sub because I simply can't envision having a second within the confines of the living room (12' x 14'). I'm currently considering a 15" sealed sub such as the HSU ULS-15 MK2 or Rythmik E15. There's about a $500 difference between these two, but I'd be willing to fork out the extra dough if you guys think it would be worth it.

Just for the record, I may have rolled my eyes once or twice during this conversation but I respect that you're asking so many questions and clearly doing some homework on your own. It's smart. This can be a very expensive hobby and knowing is half the battle. Judging by your replies I'd say some good info is sinking in and you're learning some stuff.

 

[ryanosaur]

*cautiously leans in, looks around

Single sealed sub... might as well go all in!

Classic - 18.0E

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