TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Chinese physicians have just reported serious developments. The original strain was an S-type which has now morphed into an L-Type. The older S type was less infectious and a milder disease.

This new L-type is more infectious and more virulent with a higher incidence of more serious cases. In China the L-Type is now 70% of new cases.

This is serious enough, but having had the S-type does not confer immunity to the L-type necessarily. This is thought to be the reason for patients becoming sick again with the illness and shedding virus. Also the asymptomatic but infectious period can be 24 days at least. So this is calculated to greatly prolong the epidemic.

The Chinese physicians have no issued a breakdown of the epidemic including age.

    • Confirmed cases: 44 672 (62%)
    • Suspected cases: 16 186 (22%)
    • Diagnosed cases: 10 567 (15%)
    • Asymptomatic cases: 889 (1%)
  • Age distribution (N = 44 672)
    • ≥80 years: 3% (1408 cases)
    • 30-79 years: 87% (38 680 cases)
    • 20-29 years: 8% (3619 cases)
    • 10-19 years: 1% (549 cases)
    • <10 years: 1% (416 cases)
  • Spectrum of disease (N = 44 415)
    • Mild: 81% (36 160 cases)
    • Severe: 14% (6168 cases)
    • Critical: 5% (2087 cases)
  • Case-fatality rate
    • 2.3% (1023 of 44 672 confirmed cases)
    • 14.8% in patients aged ≥80 years (208 of 1408)
    • 8.0% in patients aged 70-79 years (312 of 3918)
    • 49.0% in critical cases (1023 of 2087)
  • Health care personnel infected
    • 3.8% (1716 of 44 672)
    • 63% in Wuhan (1080 of 1716)
    • 14.8% cases classified as severe or critical (247 of 1668)
    • 5 deaths
I think you can see this is very bad news indeed. So this is turning out to be much more serious and more good evidence comes to light. The source is JAMA this evening.

So when I get it, which I will far more likely than not, my mortality is a 8% risk at best however. I have a significant passes history so when I get it, I will be looking at a mortality of probably around 15% at least and not 8% which is bad enough.

I think you can probably see how very serious this is.

You can not compare it to flu epidemics in any way. There are just too many major differences and most ominous.

The world's response in my view has been paltry and we are are now staring down the unknowable and more likely than not a major disaster if not a calamity.

I will post only when important information like the above comes to light.
 
Last edited:
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Chinese physicians have just reported serious developments. The original strain was an S-type which has now morphed into an L-Type. The older S type was less infectious and a milder disease.

This new L-type is more infectious and more virulent with a higher incidence of more serious cases. In China the L-Type is now 70% of new cases.

This is serious enough, but having had the S-type does not confer immunity to the L-type necessarily. This is thought to be the reason for patients becoming sick again with the illness and shedding virus. Also the asymptomatic but infectious period can be 24 days at least. So this is calculated to greatly prolong the epidemic.

The Chinese physicians have no issued a breakdown of the epidemic including age.

    • Confirmed cases: 44 672 (62%)
    • Suspected cases: 16 186 (22%)
    • Diagnosed cases: 10 567 (15%)
    • Asymptomatic cases: 889 (1%)
  • Age distribution (N = 44 672)
    • ≥80 years: 3% (1408 cases)
    • 30-79 years: 87% (38 680 cases)
    • 20-29 years: 8% (3619 cases)
    • 10-19 years: 1% (549 cases)
    • <10 years: 1% (416 cases)
  • Spectrum of disease (N = 44 415)
    • Mild: 81% (36 160 cases)
    • Severe: 14% (6168 cases)
    • Critical: 5% (2087 cases)
  • Case-fatality rate
    • 2.3% (1023 of 44 672 confirmed cases)
    • 14.8% in patients aged ≥80 years (208 of 1408)
    • 8.0% in patients aged 70-79 years (312 of 3918)
    • 49.0% in critical cases (1023 of 2087)
  • Health care personnel infected
    • 3.8% (1716 of 44 672)
    • 63% in Wuhan (1080 of 1716)
    • 14.8% cases classified as severe or critical (247 of 1668)
    • 5 deaths
I think you can see this is very bad news indeed. So this is turning out to be much more serious and more good evidence comes to light.

So when I get it, which I will far more likely than not, my mortality is a 8% risk at best however. I have a significant passes history so when I get it, I will be looking at a mortality of probably around 15% at least and not 8% which is bad enough.

I think you can probably see how very serious this is.

You can not compare it to flu epidemics in any way. There are just too many major differences and most ominous.

The world's response in my view has been paltry and we are are now staring down the unknowable and more likely than not a major disaster if not a calamity.

I will post only when important information like the above comes to light.
In your opinion, it looks like it will be worse than the SARS coronavirus which occurred in 2002-04? I don't recall having heard much about it in Canada then.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I found one:
Here's that same article in full, as a PDF.

Rapid mutation is what these viruses can do. As soon as a more infectious sub-type exists, it has a selective advantage over other sub-types. It will dominate.

It would also be to the virus's selective advantage to infect rapidly, promulgate widely, but not kill it's hosts so readily. We've yet to see that sub-type.

Talking about an organism, or an infectious virus, as if it had evolutionary goals, is teleological thinking. Most biologists object to that. But, biologists still often write about evolution as if organisms had goals. Some well known biologists, such as J.B.S. Haldane, consider that teleological language is unavoidable in evolutionary biology.

I had to say that before anyone else could bust me for it :cool:. Although, I doubt if anyone here at AH knows or cares about teleological thinking.
 
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R

RedCharles

Full Audioholic
we don't have any immunity to Covid-19.
Tedros said that Sars-2 does not transmit as efficiently as influenza, and that didn't make sense considering Sars-2 has a higher R-0 at R2.68 than seasonal Influenza at R1.5. But since we have no immunity to Sars-2 it has a target rich environment, and therefore a higher transmission rate, while being less infectious.

And Jerry, I totally agree now. You convinced me with your well thought out posts and news story sources. Why did I ever read peer reviewed studies when I could have just formed by opinion by reading news articles like you.
 
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JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
And Jerry, I totally agree now. You convinced me with your well thought out posts and news story sources. Why did I ever read peer reviewed studies when I could have just formed by opinion by reading news articles like you.
I think you are making up facts [lying]. Link the study and peer review in question.
 
P

pewternhrata

Audioholic Chief
FB_IMG_1583336947690.jpg

I dont think I'm willing to destroy my vinyl collection just yet...
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Well, it was just a matter of time, before insurance companies started stopped covering trip cancellation due to the coronavirus.
Meanwhile, the Nova Scotia Dept. of Education announced that school class trips to Europe up to the end of April are cancelled. Anything scheduled from May onwards will be looked at as this story unfolds. My daughter's class is supposed to be going to New York City in May. Luckily, we purchased coverage for it prior to the insurance companies dropping coverage for coronavirus.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
The current mortality rate is about 20 times higher than the flu.
Really? Where? Is that the mortality rate in China... the home of comprehensive health care? Does your "20 times higher than the flu" apply to us? Wondering.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Those couple of companies that make those claims are required by law to back those claims up with reliable evidence. If they can't, the FDA can order them to cease & desist advertising that they can eliminate pathogens. And the FTC can go after them with lawsuits for false advertising.
All vaccines and medications are required by law to be tested for both safety and efficacy, before they can be licensed by the FDA for sale for medical use. The FDA doesn't make those calls directly. They appoint independent scientific/medical review boards to examine the evidence and make the decisions. That's whats so infuriating about the anti-vaxers – they falsely believe that vaccines are unsafe and ineffective despite all this. They claim they do their own online "research" when in fact, they just re-read what's already known to be false.

But your point is good about antibiotic or antiviral medications where they must be taken over several days, as long as 10 days, to be effective. Despite their doctor's efforts at warning them to take the full prescription, too many people stop sooner than that. That's part of the reason why bacteria and viruses develop resistance to those medications.
I heard some comments on the radio about Lysol being effective on this, so I looked at their site and it includes this near the list at the bottom of the page-

"In accordance with the EPA Viral Emerging Pathogen Policy, the following Lysol products can be used against 2019 Novel Coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) when used in accordance with the directions for use.

 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
In your opinion, it looks like it will be worse than the SARS coronavirus which occurred in 2002-04? I don't recall having heard much about it in Canada then.
Well the Chinese physicians have the most experience in these diseases. In medicine experience of the number of cases is the best guide to optimum treatment. So I would say the mortality at least at first, will be higher outside Chine than in China.

Now these Chinese physicians said their impression is that the S-type was milder but more infectious that SARS. The new L-type they say is as severe as SARS but much more infectious. So if they are correct then yes, this is much more serious.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Really? Where? Is that the mortality rate in China... the home of comprehensive health care? Does your "20 times higher than the flu" apply to us? Wondering.
Actually, that rate has been revised upwards. From the article that Irv just linked:

"The World Health Organization announced that the estimated death rate was 3.4% on Tuesday, though some health experts predict it could ultimately be lower as more cases get reported."

The death rate for flu is 0.1%, so that makes COVID-19 34 times more lethal. If you only care about the American death rate (so far), there have been 153 reported cases and 11 deaths, which gives a death rate of 0.7%. The rate is going to vary over time and location, but it's pretty clear that dismissing COVID-19 as no big deal is quite misguided.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
This morning, I read that paper more carefully. If you open that link, click on the PDF icon and you'll open the full text of this paper. It's too large to attach here. Here are the take home messages:
  • The paper refers to the SARS-Cov-2 virus. It's the same as what the World Health Organization now calls COVID-19. Don't be confused by the different names.

  • The authors' major point is that SARS-Cov-2 is really two different strains of related viruses. They named them L and S. As a result, all prior analyses of this epidemic must be re-evaluated because of the differences between L and S types. This could explain some of the confused reports about virulence and mortality during January and February.

  • The S type has been around longer and is less aggressive. It's less contagious, or replicates slower, than the L type. However, the L type has not been the predominant virus strain since January 2020. To answer why, the authors suggest this possible explanation:

    "… since January 2020, the Chinese central and local governments have taken rapid and comprehensive prevention and control measures. These human intervention efforts might have caused severe selective pressure against the L type, which might be more aggressive and spread more quickly. The S type, on the other hand, might have experienced weaker selective pressure by human intervention, leading to an increase in its relative abundance among the SARS-CoV-2 viruses."

  • As a result, we now face the less aggressive S type Covid-19 virus. That's a good thing, not a reason for panic.
To support my bullet points, I've directly quoted these passages from the paper:

"Population genetic analyses of 103 SARS-CoV-2 genomes indicated that these viruses evolved into two major types (designated L and S), that are well defined by two different SNPs that show nearly complete linkage across the viral strains sequenced to date. Although the L type (~70%) is more prevalent than the S type (~30%), the S type was found to be the ancestral version. Whereas the L type was more prevalent in the early stages of the outbreak in Wuhan, the frequency of the L type decreased after early January 2020. Human intervention may have placed more severe selective pressure on the L type, which might be more aggressive and spread more quickly. On the other hand, the S type, which is evolutionarily older and less aggressive, might have increased in relative frequency due to relatively weaker selective pressure."​
"Thus far, we found that, although the L type is derived from the S type, L (~70%) is more prevalent than S (~30%) among the sequenced SARS-CoV-2 genomes we examined. This pattern suggests that L has a higher transmission rate than the S type. Furthermore, our mutational load analysis indicated that the L type had accumulated a significantly higher number of derived mutations than S type (P < 0.0001, Wilcoxon rank-sum test; Fig. S5). We propose that, although the L type newly evolved from the ancient S type, it transmits faster or replicates faster in human populations, causing it to accumulate more mutations than the S type. Thus, our results suggest the L might be more aggressive than the S type due to the potentially higher transmission and/or replication rates."​
"To test whether the two types of SARS-CoV-2 had differences in temporal and spatial distributions, we stratified the viruses based on the locations and dates they were isolated (Table S1). Among the 27 viruses isolated from Wuhan, 26 (96.3%) were L type, and only 1 (3.7%) was S type. However, among the other 73 viruses isolated outside Wuhan, 45 (61.6%) were L type, and 28 (38.4%) were S type. This comparison suggests that the L type is significantly more prevalent in Wuhan than in other places (P = 0.0004, Fisher’s exact test, Fig. 6 and Table S3). All of the 26 samples isolated before January 7, 2020, were from Wuhan, and among the 74 samples collected from January 7, 2020, only one was from Wuhan, 33 were from other places in China, and 40 were from patients outside China. Thus, it is not surprising that the L type was significantly more prevalent before January 7, 2020 (96.2%, 25 L and 1 S) than after January 7, 2020 (62.2%, 46 L and 28 S) (P = 0.0008, Fisher’s exact test, Fig. 6 and Table S3)."​
"If the L type is more aggressive than the S type, why did the relative frequency of the L type decrease compared to the S type in other places after the initial breakout in Wuhan? One possible explanation is that, since January 2020, the Chinese central and local governments have taken rapid and comprehensive prevention and control measures. These human intervention efforts might have caused severe selective pressure against the L type, which might be more aggressive and spread more quickly. The S type, on the other hand, might have experienced weaker selective pressure by human intervention, leading to an increase in its relative abundance among the SARS-CoV-2 viruses. Thus, we hypothesized that the two types of SARS-CoV-2 viruses might have experienced different selective pressures due to different epidemiological features. Of note, the above analyses were based on very patchy SARS-CoV-2 genomes that were collected from different locations and time points. More comprehensive genomic data is required for further testing of our hypothesis."​
 
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P

pewternhrata

Audioholic Chief

The CDC is recommending people NOT wear N-95 respirators in public. It’s true that a properly fitted N-95 mask, sealed around the chin, mouth and nose can block about 95% of airborne particles from being inhaled. That’s probably going to cut down on COVID transmissions in controlled, limited healthcare encounters. But fitting and sealing the mask properly takes work. Breathing in and out through the thick N95 respirator is also work. Staff needs to take breaks and take the mask off frequently. Wearing a respirator for long periods of time, and frequently adjusting the respirator with one’s fingers, may well negate any protective effect

COVID-19 is a type of coronavirus, much like SARS and MERS but with a much lower fatality rate (≈3% vs. 10% vs. 35% respectively). COVID-19 is more highly transmissible, but not as deadly. You have higher rates of dying from influenza.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan

The CDC is recommending people NOT wear N-95 respirators in public. It’s true that a properly fitted N-95 mask, sealed around the chin, mouth and nose can block about 95% of airborne particles from being inhaled. That’s probably going to cut down on COVID transmissions in controlled, limited healthcare encounters. But fitting and sealing the mask properly takes work. Breathing in and out through the thick N95 respirator is also work. Staff needs to take breaks and take the mask off frequently. Wearing a respirator for long periods of time, and frequently adjusting the respirator with one’s fingers, may well negate any protective effect

COVID-19 is a type of coronavirus, much like SARS and MERS but with a much lower fatality rate (≈3% vs. 10% vs. 35% respectively). COVID-19 is more highly transmissible, but not as deadly. You have higher rates of dying from influenza.
The mortality rate of influenza is around 0.1%, so much lower than that of the other viruses you mentioned. If you meant total numbers of deaths, then yes, the flu has a much larger impact.
 
Dan

Dan

Audioholic Chief
Chinese physicians have just reported serious developments. The original strain was an S-type which has now morphed into an L-Type. The older S type was less infectious and a milder disease.

This new L-type is more infectious and more virulent with a higher incidence of more serious cases. In China the L-Type is now 70% of new cases.

This is serious enough, but having had the S-type does not confer immunity to the L-type necessarily. This is thought to be the reason for patients becoming sick again with the illness and shedding virus. Also the asymptomatic but infectious period can be 24 days at least. So this is calculated to greatly prolong the epidemic.

The Chinese physicians have no issued a breakdown of the epidemic including age.

    • Confirmed cases: 44 672 (62%)
    • Suspected cases: 16 186 (22%)
    • Diagnosed cases: 10 567 (15%)
    • Asymptomatic cases: 889 (1%)
  • Age distribution (N = 44 672)
    • ≥80 years: 3% (1408 cases)
    • 30-79 years: 87% (38 680 cases)
    • 20-29 years: 8% (3619 cases)
    • 10-19 years: 1% (549 cases)
    • <10 years: 1% (416 cases)
  • Spectrum of disease (N = 44 415)
    • Mild: 81% (36 160 cases)
    • Severe: 14% (6168 cases)
    • Critical: 5% (2087 cases)
  • Case-fatality rate
    • 2.3% (1023 of 44 672 confirmed cases)
    • 14.8% in patients aged ≥80 years (208 of 1408)
    • 8.0% in patients aged 70-79 years (312 of 3918)
    • 49.0% in critical cases (1023 of 2087)
  • Health care personnel infected
    • 3.8% (1716 of 44 672)
    • 63% in Wuhan (1080 of 1716)
    • 14.8% cases classified as severe or critical (247 of 1668)
    • 5 deaths
I think you can see this is very bad news indeed. So this is turning out to be much more serious and more good evidence comes to light. The source is JAMA this evening.

So when I get it, which I will far more likely than not, my mortality is a 8% risk at best however. I have a significant passes history so when I get it, I will be looking at a mortality of probably around 15% at least and not 8% which is bad enough.

I think you can probably see how very serious this is.

You can not compare it to flu epidemics in any way. There are just too many major differences and most ominous.

The world's response in my view has been paltry and we are are now staring down the unknowable and more likely than not a major disaster if not a calamity.

I will post only when important information like the above comes to light.

As a health care provider I am somewhat resigned to getting it. Although not in your age bracket and I have less patient contact than you did, I do procedures on people with respiratory issues draining their pleural fluid under ultrasound. I have been exposed to patients with unsuspected TB several times. If I get it, I willprobably get it in this way, from a patient who is not suspected of having it. Many of the folk I work with feel the same way and the 63% figure of providers in Wuhan is sobering and staggering. I hope my own comorbidities don't exacerbate the serious of it but they probably will.
 
P

pewternhrata

Audioholic Chief
The mortality rate of influenza is around 0.1%, so much lower than that of the other viruses you mentioned. If you meant total numbers of deaths, then yes, the flu has a much larger impact.
I didnt mean anything. Not my article. Just another source of info that was very well presented imho. Mortality rates are skewed in favor of ones argument. In lieu of things, looks like there is definitely a higher probability of contracting the flu (29 million people) vs corona (75k) both can be deadly. Odds are more likely to die from the flu, it's more commonly contracted.
 

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