Marantz shut off sound

[TankTop5]

Mostly use my Marantz with my Dyn Special 40’s in 2.1 with SVS PB1000 in 2.1 setup. Decided to try the S40’s full range without the sub and my Marantz 5014 shut down multiple times. Streaming music from Pandora on CAT6 from router. I was going though many different music types and the issue was almost entirely with 2 Cellos Classical.

I wasn’t blasting music but I was listening loud and full range on the Dyn S40’s but nothing ridiculous. The Marantz also shut down on several normal movie scenes lacking lots of transients. Again 2.1 is great but full range stereo the Marantz 5014 has trouble with the Dyns.

I did find some sexy stands and thought some mono blocks on a shelf below would be awesome. Problem is mono blocks are a bazillion watts or a bazillion $$$. Schiit Vidar looks sexy though...

THOUGHTS...???


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[ryanosaur]

That the marantz didn't lock down completely is a good sign: you aren't triggering the main protection circuits. Those special 40s don't appear to be a particularly hard load to drive in terms of impedance and phase... so...

How loud are you listening against reference level?
Is your AVR in an enclosed space?
Do you have ventilation on it?

Cellos bottom out at ~65Hz IIRC, so that shouldn't even be coming close to doing anything bad to the speakers. But you said you also experienced this with HT in 2-Channel? (I definitely wouldn't run those Large with an LFE track of any kind. That's just me though.)

 

[Verdinut]

Mostly use my Marantz with my Dyn Special 40’s in 2.1 with SVS PB1000 in 2.1 setup. Decided to try the S40’s full range without the sub and my Marantz 5014 shut down multiple times. Streaming music from Pandora on CAT6 from router. I was going though many different music types and the issue was almost entirely with 2 Cellos Classical.

I wasn’t blasting music but I was listening loud and full range on the Dyn S40’s but nothing ridiculous. The Marantz also shut down on several normal movie scenes lacking lots of transients. Again 2.1 is great but full range stereo the Marantz 5014 has trouble with the Dyns.

I suspect the problem is caused by the Special 40's which have a weird phase angle response, from the info in a Stereophile measurement included in their review:

Dynaudio Special Forty loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements I used DRA Labs' MLSSA system and a calibrated DPA 4006 microphone to measure the Dynaudio Special Forty's frequency response in the farfield, and an Earthworks QTC-40 for the nearfield and spatially averaged room responses.

www.stereophile.com

Perhaps @shadyJ knows about them and could shime in with his comments. Of course, other members are welcome to give their opinion.

 

[ryanosaur]

I looked at that too, but the impedance doesn’t drop below 5 iirc... which the Marantz should be stable to 4. Might not be great, but if that was overloading the AVR, wouldn’t it lock down the main protection circuits? Or is it heat dissipation due to the energy at that phase angle? (Heat related, is what I was thinking I about above...)

 

[shadyJ]

I suspect the problem is caused by the Special 40's which have a weird phase angle response, from the info in a Stereophile measurement included in their review:

Dynaudio Special Forty loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements I used DRA Labs' MLSSA system and a calibrated DPA 4006 microphone to measure the Dynaudio Special Forty's frequency response in the farfield, and an Earthworks QTC-40 for the nearfield and spatially averaged room responses.

www.stereophile.com

Perhaps @shadyJ knows about them and could shime in with his comments. Of course, other members are welcome to give their opinion.

The impedance/phase on that speaker isn't that bad. Most AVR's should be able to handle that load.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think the problem is occurring at 120 Hz. The largest negative phase angles occur when the impedance is high. However at 120 Hz the impedance is 6 ohms but the phase angle is -30 degrees at that point which gives a power factor of 0.15. So at that point the power factor is trending to zero at a point where there is high current demand. Not the worst situation that could occur, but at that point current demand will be high.

Now couple this with the spec of that receiver. Is it really a 100 watts? So it can deliver 100 watts into an 8 ohm load with an excellent 0.08% THD two channels driven. Now look at a 6 ohm loads. OK we get 140 watts but the amp is starting to clip with 0.7% THD. at 200 watts we have 10%THD, and the amp is about to blow up.

So into those Special 40s that receiver running two channels is I reckon about a 50 watt per channel amp and may be less. It is pretty clear that unit does not like delivering current. So that power factor trending to zero represents a narrow frequency band at which the speaker comes close to a short circuit. I stress this is a very narrow band and would not upset any robust amp. However I think you all know how I regard receivers. I'm sorry, but receivers at present seem to have degraded amps due to trying to maintain price with added features.

So if it is loud you want, with those speakers you need external amplification.

 

[PENG]

I think the problem is occurring at 120 Hz. The largest negative phase angles occur when the impedance is high. However at 120 Hz the impedance is 6 ohms but the phase angle is -30 degrees at that point which gives a power factor of 0.15. So at that point the power factor is trending to zero at a point where there is high current demand. Not the worst situation that could occur, but at that point current demand will be high.

Really? From the graph, the worst spot appeared to be at around 150-160 Hz where the impedance was about 6 ohms and the phase angle is about 35 degrees. As Shady said, that's not bad.

The sensitivity was measured by JA to be only 84.4 dB/2.83V/1m. The power handling spec is 200 WPC maxium, that's a ridiculous spec that somehow most manufacturers used for no apparent reason and the community seems silent about it. What the heck does 200 WPC maximum really mean, when moving coil speakers produce output (in dB spl) proportional to voltage, and without knowing he point by point phase angle, "watt" doesn't really tell you much. Anyway, no more ranting a this topic really belongs to a separate thread but I know of all people, you understand the point I am trying to make.

In my opinion, those speakers are not suitable for people who want to listen loud, like anywhere close to reference room, unless near field. Otherwise if the receiver didn't trip, or if pushed hard by an external power amp, the speakers themselves will be the casualty.

 

[PENG]

The impedance/phase on that speaker isn't that bad. Most AVR's should be able to handle that load.

I guess that's for sure for you and I but not for people who think cranking up the volume will get them to play as loud as they want/or even just need...depending on how far they sit.

 

[TLS Guy]

Really? From the graph, the worst spot appeared to be at around 150-160 Hz where the impedance was about 6 ohms and the phase angle is about 35 degrees. As Shady said, that's not bad.

The sensitivity was measured by JA to be only 84.4 dB/2.83V/1m. The power handling spec is 200 WPC maxium, that's a ridiculous spec that somehow most manufacturers used for no apparent reason and the community seems silent about it. What the heck does 200 WPC maximum really mean, when moving coil speakers produce output (in dB spl) proportional to voltage, and without knowing he point by point phase angle, "watt" doesn't really tell you much. Anyway, no more ranting a this topic really belongs to a separate thread but I know of all people, you understand the point I am trying to make.

In my opinion, those speakers are not suitable for people who want to listen loud, like anywhere close to reference room, unless near field. Otherwise if the receiver didn't trip, or if pushed hard by an external power amp, the speakers themselves will be the casualty.

I have a very long history with those drivers, both the Dynaudio and the Morels which are virtually identical due to a split between the owners of Dynaudio some years ago and both parties had right to the patents.

Now those driver have massive motor systems. The voice coils are 3" in diameter, and use edge wound copper to dissipate heat. They are low sensitivity though and require very beefy amplification. I would never dream of driving a speaker built round those drivers with a receiver. They handle enormous amounts of power without complaint. With the right amplification then they are capable of very high spl.

I first used the Dynaudio M75 midrange in my Grand Forks biamped studio monitors. Those mids have the same 3" VC motor system. I good get very high spls. These speakers are now my rear backs. Those drivers have been in continuous use for 36 years.

I used the Dynaudio woofers in my first location monitors for my radio broadcasts.

I used them again in my second pair of location monitors in speakers with an integrated isobarik sub using two 9' Morel sub drivers inside each cabinet. I used them in Eagan Townhome, but currently do not have a use for them.

Since Dynaudio drivers are no longer available to the home constructor I used the Morel version in my new in wall system here.

This is really my wife's system, but we both watch TV and movies there. It is a nice space. She often likes her music very loud. (different genre of music!). I have come into the huge space filled to unbelievable power levels without complaint, driving it from her iPod via the USB port!

That little Morel mid range also takes tons of power without complaint. The VC is the diameter of the dust cap.

This is a picture of the bass/mid drivers.

The motor system is larger than on a lot of sub drivers.

This is the spec sheet which is honest.

The OP's Dynaudio drivers will be similar.

As noted in the spec sheet by the are not very sensitive. By the time you add the loss of the crossover network you would be around 84 db 2.83V/M. So do get concert level spls you need hefty amplification which those drivers tolerate very well.

Those drivers are not for driving with receivers, and I can well understand why the Marantz goes into protection driving his speakers hard.

I have never burnt out one of those motor systems and I have driven them hard.

I good beefy amp will solve the problem, and I know you won't believe this Peng, but they will sound a lot better also with a good beefy amp like a Quad 909. Those speakers are among very few that you can really push hard without complaint. I can well understand the OP's current problem. Did you know I don't like receivers by the way?

 

[PENG]

I have a very long history with those drivers, both the Dynaudio and the Morels which are virtually identical due to a split between the owners of Dynaudio some years ago and both parties had right to the patents.

Now those driver have massive motor systems. The voice coils are 3" in diameter, and use edge wound copper to dissipate heat. They are low sensitivity though and require very beefy amplification. I would never dream of driving a speaker built round those drivers with a receiver. They handle enormous amounts of power without complaint. With the right amplification then they are capable of very high spl.

I first used the Dynaudio M75 midrange in my Grand Forks biamped studio monitors. Those mids have the same 3" VC motor system. I good get very high spls. These speakers are now my rear backs. Those drivers have been in continuous use for 36 years.

I used the Dynaudio woofers in my first location monitors for my radio broadcasts.

I used them again in my second pair of location monitors in speakers with an integrated isobarik sub using two 9' Morel sub drivers inside each cabinet. I used them in Eagan Townhome, but currently do not have a use for them.

Since Dynaudio drivers are no longer available to the home constructor I used the Morel version in my new in wall system here.

This is really my wife's system, but we both watch TV and movies there. It is a nice space. She often likes her music very loud. (different genre of music!). I have come into the huge space filled to unbelievable power levels without complaint, driving it from her iPod via the USB port!

That little Morel mid range also takes tons of power without complaint. The VC is the diameter of the dust cap.

This is a picture of the bass/mid drivers.

The motor system is larger than on a lot of sub drivers.

This is the spec sheet which is honest.

The OP's Dynaudio drivers will be similar.

As noted in the spec sheet by the are not very sensitive. By the time you add the loss of the crossover network you would be around 84 db 2.83V/M. So do get concert level spls you need hefty amplification which those drivers tolerate very well.

Those drivers are not for driving with receivers, and I can well understand why the Marantz goes into protection driving his speakers hard.

I have never burnt out one of those motor systems and I have driven them hard.

I good beefy amp will solve the problem, and I know you won't believe this Peng, but they will sound a lot better also with a good beefy amp like a Quad 909. Those speakers are among very few that you can really push hard without complaint. I can well understand the OP's current problem. Did you know I don't like receivers by the way?

Thanks for the info and I am not disagreeing with what you are referring to here as you have the spec sheet to back things up, except I highly doubt the OP's Special 40 has that driver. The specs and measurements (Stereophile as you know) indicated to me it has a different set of drivers and are not designed to play anywhere near ref level except for near field use. To me, the Dyn Spec 40 is a speaker that need current, for it to sound good and loud (relatively speaking), that is, current/"power" demanding but yet limited by its handling capability,hence spl.., sort of a case of catch 22.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for the info and I am not disagreeing with what you are referring to here as you have the spec sheet to back things up, except I highly doubt the OP's Special 40 has that driver. The specs and measurements (Stereophile as you know) indicated to me it has a different set of drivers and are not designed to play anywhere near ref level except for near field use. To me, the Dyn Spec 40 is a speaker that need current, for it to sound good and loud (relatively speaking), that is, current/"power" demanding but yet limited by its handling capability,hence spl.., sort of a case of catch 22.

It won't be the same driver, and mine are all different. It will however have the same basic Dynaudio/Morel motor system, that is my point. All of my speakers I showed you are different drivers, but all have the same robust motor construction. You can tell that by looking at the cone/dustcap configuration that the OPs drivers are of the same lineage. There are no other drivers with that motor design except Dynaudio and Morel and only they have the right to the patents. And yes, those drivers need current. If you are hooked on receivers those drivers are not for you.

 

[Verdinut]

Those drivers are not for driving with receivers, and I can well understand why the Marantz goes into protection driving his speakers hard.

I have never burnt out one of those motor systems and I have driven them hard.

I good beefy amp will solve the problem, and I know you won't believe this Peng, but they will sound a lot better also with a good beefy amp like a Quad 909. Those speakers are among very few that you can really push hard without complaint. I can well understand the OP's current problem. Did you know I don't like receivers by the way?

You say that those Morel CAW 638 are not for driving with receivers. Well, several years ago, I built a pair of MTM enclosures using them with an Airborne AMT tweeter with excellent results. I was driving a pair of them connected in parallel (4 ohms) with my Marantz SR5010 receiver without any problem.

It's all a matter of loudness. If you play them at reasonable levels in a 12.5 X 18 feet room like I did, the AVR won't shut down. Moreover, I never noticed any hint of amplifier instability at the SPL I was playing them at (in 2 channel stereo at volumes up to 85 dB at 9 feet).
My avatar shows the impedance and phase response of those Morel drivers with impedance compensation, and used with the Airborne tweeter. Unfortunately, as I didn't have the space to keep those enclosures, I regretfully sold the Morel drivers.

 

[PENG]

It's all a matter of loudness. If you play them at reasonable levels in a 12.5 X 18 feet room like I did, the AVR won't shut down and I never noticed any hint of amplifier instability at the SPL I was playing them at.

That's the point I did make to TLS, that it would be a problem obviously if the user try to push them to near ref level except for near field use.

 

[TLS Guy]

You say that those Morel CAW 638 are not for driving with receivers. Well, several years ago, I built a pair of MTM enclosures using them with an Airborne AMT tweeter with excellent results. I was driving a pair of them connected in parallel (4 ohms) with my Marantz SR5010 receiver without any problem.

It's all a matter of loudness. If you play them at reasonable levels in a 12.5 X 18 feet room like I did, the AVR won't shut down. Moreover, I never noticed any hint of amplifier instability at the SPL I was playing them at (in 2 channel stereo at volumes up to 85 dB at 9 feet).
My avatar shows the impedance and phase response of those Morel drivers with impedance compensation, and used with the Airborne tweeter. Unfortunately, as I didn't have the space to keep those enclosures, I regretfully sold the Morel drivers.

Yes, but you had an older receiver and not one of these new 4K horrors. As Shady points out in his Atmos article, one of the downsides of this new technology is power amplifier downgrades in receivers. No one gives a 4 ohm spec any more. When you go from the 8 to 6 ohm spec you can see they are current and therefore power limited. By the way there are precious few 8 ohm speakers no matter what the spec says. Receivers never a good idea are now on a race to the bottom to maintain price.

 

[TankTop5]

So, I have my Marantz locked at -10 volume and I think that’s where it was playing. It did sound a bit loud but not blaring, then the receiver just shut off completely, had to unplug it to get it back on.

Running it 2.1 hasn’t been a problem just sucks knowing what these speakers are capable of, didn’t even realize they can easily outrun my PB1000. Going to hunt for some budget friendly mono blocks, maybe Pro-Ject or Schiit, after getting wife’s permission.


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[ryanosaur]

didn’t even realize they can easily outrun my PB1000

Please elaborate?

 

[TankTop5]

Please elaborate?

Obviously I’m still pretty new to hi fi, tinkered 20 years ago and always fascinated but didn’t start getting into it until recently so forgive my lack of terminology.

Watching movies my wife and daughter have constantly complained about the bass. Last week I finally set the Sub gain to -10 and I’ve played with changing the crossover lower. Still couldn’t get the bass to go away except for some very low frequency, toe tingling stuff. That’s when it occurred to me that it wasn’t the sub and I turned it off, set the amp to frost speakers only and no crossover. For lack of better terminology, holy crap! I can’t describe it as loud as much as room filling thick bass.


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[TLS Guy]

Obviously I’m still pretty new to hi fi, tinkered 20 years ago and always fascinated but didn’t start getting into it until recently so forgive my lack of terminology.

Watching movies my wife and daughter have constantly complained about the bass. Last week I finally set the Sub gain to -10 and I’ve played with changing the crossover lower. Still couldn’t get the bass to go away except for some very low frequency, toe tingling stuff. That’s when it occurred to me that it wasn’t the sub and I turned it off, set the amp to frost speakers only and no crossover. For lack of better terminology, holy crap! I can’t describe it as loud as much as room filling thick bass.


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Try the LFE + main setting an set the crossover to 60 which is 50% above F3 of your speakers, You might like that. Don't set the sub too high.

 

[TLS Guy]

So, I have my Marantz locked at -10 volume and I think that’s where it was playing. It did sound a bit loud but not blaring, then the receiver just shut off completely, had to unplug it to get it back on.

Running it 2.1 hasn’t been a problem just sucks knowing what these speakers are capable of, didn’t even realize they can easily outrun my PB1000. Going to hunt for some budget friendly mono blocks, maybe Pro-Ject or Schiit, after getting wife’s permission.


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I don't think you need a monoblock. Something that will deliver 150 watts perchannel into 8 ohms and 250 watts per channel into 4 ohms will be more than adequate.

-10 db is not that loud. I played my main level rig with similar speakers to yours at -10 db. The sensitivity of the 909s is 0.775 volts for full modulation. So I suspect the gain structure is very similar to your receiver. Since I'm using two bass mids in each cabinet my sensitivity is 2 db to 3 db higher than yours. But very comparable. So a -12 db it adequately filled the space but it was not loud. I listen to that rig most often at around -13 db. My wife seems to listen much louder while going about house work! A lot louder.

If you get a decent amp I think you will be happy. I think it will sound a lot better even if you are not blasting it. I'm pretty sure if you don't sort this out pretty soon you will be looking for a new receiver shortly. You can only have an amp go into protection a few times before disaster. With you having to pull the plug, you are getting that receiver close to a one way trip to the recycling center.

There is a Quad 909 on eBay. But it claims to be a guitar effects amp. Quad never made such a thing, so I'm afraid it has been mucked about. I have contacted the seller to find out. The Quad 909 is a great sounding stable amp.

 

[TankTop5]

I don't think you need a monoblock. Something that will deliver 150 watts perchannel into 8 ohms and 250 watts per channel into 4 ohms will be more than adequate.

I know I don’t need monoblocks but they would look sexy on a shelf underneath each Dyn.

The Quad looks good too, I’ll keep an eye out. Are there any other models that would work as well?



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