Multi Amp Usage

[DigitalD]

Hello everyone, I am a novice at this Audio / Home Theatre hobby. I have a question that I hope some of you more experienced users can assist with. I currently have a Denon X4400h with a Outlaw Model 7000x assisiting my 5.1.4 set up. My Speakers consist of Klipsch RF7 IIIs with the matching Center Channel and Surrounds. Atmos speakers are SVS Prime Elevation. I currently feel as if my Klipsch RF7s are not producing bass as other users have reported. Is it a good idea to purchase a higher end 2 ch Power Amp? Will my system sound odd/weird if I do this and power my center Ch with my outlaw model 7000x? I am considering a Parasound A21+ amp. Thoughts?

 

[everettT]

Hello everyone, I am a novice at this Audio / Home Theatre hobby. I have a question that I hope some of you more experienced users can assist with. I currently have a Denon X4400h with a Outlaw Model 7000x assisiting my 5.1.4 set up. My Speakers consist of Klipsch RF7 IIIs with the matching Center Channel and Surrounds. Atmos speakers are SVS Prime Elevation. I currently feel as if my Klipsch RF7s are not producing bass as other users have reported. Is it a good idea to purchase a higher end 2 ch Power Amp? Will my system sound odd/weird if I do this and power my center Ch with my outlaw model 7000x? I am considering a Parasound A21+ amp. Thoughts?

I highly doubt that adding an another amp will do anything for your bass issue. Likely could be do to placement. What sub/s are you using as that should be where you get your bass from.

 

[DigitalD]

I highly doubt that adding an another amp will do anything for your bass issue. Likely could be do to placement. What sub/a are you using as that should be where you get your bass from.

I have a SVS PB3000.
My concern is during 2Ch listening. This is for music and TV as YouTube TV doesn’t have Dolby 5.1 Surround. Movie watching seems fine due to the sub kicking in and my fronts not running as Large speakers.

 

[everettT]

I have a SVS PB3000.
My concern is during 2Ch listening. This is for music and TV as YouTube TV doesn’t have Dolby 5.1 Surround. Movie watching seems fine due to the sub kicking in and my fronts not running as Large speakers.

You would have to move up to an amp in 350w per channel range to get just a 3db increase in spl, which with your speakers is easy to get to max spl.

Is there a reason you dont use the sub for 2 channel if the RF7s are cutting it. My 2 channel system mains reach down to 20hz in room, and I still added two subs. For certain music I need the subs, but for most I don't. If it were me I'd run the sub all the time.

 

[ryanosaur]

First, I would take "what others report" with a heavy dose of salt. I'm not a fan of the Big K, so can't really tell you whether there is significant bass in those boxes or not... but they are rated down to 32Hz (not true full-rangers) with an overinflated sensitivity rating of 102dB! So assuming the standard level of their ego, its probably closer to 93dB...
Either way, the Denon on its own should drive them to ear-bleeding and permanent hearing loss levels.
I digress.
32Hz is a pretty respectable extension for music. You are only really missing out on the lower keys of the piano and Organ... maybe some esoteric percussion... and electronic/manufactured music.
An amplifier won't fix that.
Your Sub will. (And looking at your room acoustics.)

Also, YouTube audio quality is spotty at best, and a couple users have run into situations of almost damaging their gear from very poor source quality. Please be careful.

I would run your Sub with your mains, and call it a day. That SVS is probably going to give you much better bass rolled at 80Hz, and allow your speakers some breathing room.

Cheers!

 

[DigitalD]

Thanks guys! I’ll mess with my settings and run these speakers as small with my sub activated and experiment. I hate that YouTube Tv doesn’t have 5.1 surround as I recently cut the cord with DirecTv.
Maybe users are in smaller rooms compared to my Garage.
Unfortunately, I have to buy blind as I don’t have shops to sample/listen to speakers within a commuting distance of my home. Your info is my best guesstimate so I appreciate your input.

 

[everettT]

Thanks guys! I’ll mess with my settings and run these speakers as small with my sub activated and experiment. I hate that YouTube Tv doesn’t have 5.1 surround as I recently cut the cord with DirecTv.
Maybe users are in smaller rooms compared to my Garage.
Unfortunately, I have to buy blind as I don’t have shops to sample/listen to speakers within a commuting distance of my home. Your info is my best guesstimate so I appreciate your input.

The room is gonna have the largest interaction on frequencies below 200hz so try a little toeing in, moving out just a bit to see how much that changes it. Also remember you have 2 10" woofers, but the network has them (or one of them) playing out to 1300hz, so with that type of speaker I'd run the sub. You can run the mains + subs (large + lfe or double bass whatever they call it) for music and see how you like that but I wouldn't on any content that digs deep just to protect the driver.

 

[DigitalD]

The room is gonna have the largest interaction on frequencies below 200hz so try a little toeing in, moving out just a bit to see how much that changes it. Also remember you have 2 10" woofers, but the network has them (or one of them) playing out to 1300hz, so with that type of speaker I'd run the sub. You can run the mains + subs (large + lfe or double bass whatever they call it) for music and see how you like that but I wouldn't on any content that digs deep just to protect the driver.

Got it! I’ll see if my Denon can treat 2Ch playback as LFE+Main and Multi Ch as Small to avoid constantly switching my setup every time. Thanks for the advice and prompt response!

 

[KEW]

Got it! I’ll see if my Denon can treat 2Ch playback as LFE+Main and Multi Ch as Small to avoid constantly switching my setup every time. Thanks for the advice and prompt response!

Just to cover the basses ( ),how are you currently switching from w/sub to w/o sub?
Are you fairly comfortable with the menu system/controls on your Denon? For example if you were switching to pure direct and manually turning your subs off, the Denon would still apply a 80Hz (or wherever you set it) roll-off to your mains. Many believe that Direct would eliminate the crossover, but it doesn't.

 

[DigitalD]

Just to cover the basses ( ),how are you currently switching from w/sub to w/o sub?
Are you fairly comfortable with the menu system/controls on your Denon? For example if you were switching to pure direct and manually turning your subs off, the Denon would still apply a 80Hz (or wherever you set it) roll-off to your mains. Many believe that Direct would eliminate the crossover, but it doesn't.

Thanks for the tip. I’m fairly comfortable with the Denon. I notice there is a 2Ch feature under the “Speakers” section which I have set as Large. I’m going to play with this setting which enables subs to play with 2Ch playback.

 

[KEW]

Thanks for the tip. I’m fairly comfortable with the Denon. I notice there is a 2Ch feature under the “Speakers” section which I have set as Large. I’m going to play with this setting which enables subs to play with 2Ch playback.

One feature that I love and your Denon has is maintaining different settings for different inputs. Thus, if you have a CD player and a DVD player (following my example) you can elevate the sub level for the DVD input (HT) and reduce it for the CD input (music). I use an Oppo for both functions, but being the wily kind of guy I am, I trick my hapless, unsuspecting AVR by setting up the optical connection to the CD input and HDMI to the BD input. You can also set the BD input to whatever surround sound config you like while keeping the CD input set to stereo mode.

 

[lovinthehd]

One feature that I love and your Denon has is maintaining different settings for different inputs. Thus, if you have a CD player and a DVD player (following my example) you can elevate the sub level for the DVD input (HT) and reduce it for the CD input (music). I use an Oppo for both functions, but being the wily kind of guy I am, I trick my hapless, unsuspecting AVR by setting up the optical connection to the CD input and HDMI to the BD input. You can also set the BD input to whatever surround sound config you like while keeping the CD input set to stereo mode.

Can't you do similar with the quick select preset modes without the need for different inputs?

 

[KEW]

Can't you do similar with the quick select preset modes without the need for different inputs?

I'm not sure. Probably, I never checked the quick select in as much detail.
It is a small thing, but for me the idea of tying it to the input just seems more mindlessly automatic!

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm not sure. Probably, I never checked the quick select in as much detail.
It is a small thing, but for me the idea of tying it to the input just seems more mindlessly automatic!

LOL I don't need to trick mine....why do you need to change sub level like that? I think quick select would do that for up to four different modes you want, even if same input.

 

[bombadil]

I agree, use your sub and instead of buying another amp buy another sub!

 

[KEW]

LOL I don't need to trick mine....why do you need to change sub level like that? I think quick select would do that for up to four different modes you want, even if same input.

I absolutely abhor exaggerated bass in music and while I would be good with the neutral settings for most recordings, there are some recordings that are made with the bass a bit on the hot side. I find the -2dB setting does not destroy a good recording while making most hot bass recordings tolerable.
The +6dB setting for HT is undoubtedly hot, but for action movies, it is fun that way. Sometimes it will show up in an offensive way in HT (like a music-oriented movie)and in that situation, I have to manually lower it, but that is rare.
But you are right, I can set up the quick select to allow two bass levels in surround and two bass levels in stereo (and maybe have a third setting each from input?!

 

[lovinthehd]

I absolutely abhor exaggerated bass in music and while I would be good with the neutral settings for most recordings, there are some recordings that are made with the bass a bit on the hot side. I find the -2dB setting does not destroy a good recording while making most hot bass recordings tolerable.
The +6dB setting for HT is undoubtedly hot, but for action movies, it is fun that way. Sometimes it will show up in an offensive way in HT (like a music-oriented movie)and in that situation, I have to manually lower it, but that is rare.
But you are right, I can set up the quick select to allow two bass levels in surround and two bass levels in stereo (and maybe have a third setting each from input?!

Ah, wasn't thinking of you running the sub level that hot. But what recordings are made with the bass on the hot side? Mostly I'm disappointed in that respect...

 

[KEW]

Ah, wasn't thinking of you running the sub level that hot. But what recordings are made with the bass on the hot side? Mostly I'm disappointed in that respect...

The first one that comes to mind (because it is such a travesty) is Eric Clapton "Unplugged". In so many ways this is a fantastic pristine recording.
There should be no real deep bass on this "acoustic" recording given the instrumentation and my guess is that the recording engineer mixed it on a system with studio monitors and no sub. Unfortunately, he did not apply a HPF and it is Eric tapping his foot on a large open stage that somehow got transmitted through one (or more) of the microphones such that there is this "stomp" happening through at least a couple of the songs.

Just for fun, I dug up a previous discussion with more details that I started in 2014:

Dealing with bass artifacts

I have a few albums where the recording engineer was obviously not using a subwoofer. One example of this is Eric Clapton's Unplugged album, tracks 9 and 12. I think it is Clapton tapping his foot. It sounds fine (just a gentle foot tap - on beat) on my computer system with no sub...

forums.audioholics.com

 

[lovinthehd]

The first one that comes to mind (because it is such a travesty) is Eric Clapton "Unplugged". In so many ways this is a fantastic pristine recording.
There should be no real deep bass on this "acoustic" recording given the instrumentation and my guess is that the recording engineer mixed it on a system with studio monitors and no sub. Unfortunately, he did not apply a HPF and it is Eric tapping his foot on a large open stage that somehow got transmitted through one (or more) of the microphones such that there is this "stomp" happening through at least a couple of the songs.

Just for fun, I dug up a previous discussion with more details that I started in 2014:

Dealing with bass artifacts

I have a few albums where the recording engineer was obviously not using a subwoofer. One example of this is Eric Clapton's Unplugged album, tracks 9 and 12. I think it is Clapton tapping his foot. It sounds fine (just a gentle foot tap - on beat) on my computer system with no sub...

forums.audioholics.com

Yeah I think I'm in that discussion without looking. I don't mind hearing the feet, tho but don't consider it too bassy (altho I might if I ticked up my sub level to +6 ).

ps It was two selections down from what I just listened to, so giving it another listen

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I’ve noticed that it seems like acoustic concerts have a tendency toward bloaty kind of bass. But I’m bassackwards from Kurt in that I like a little bump in the bass whereas I can’t stand overcooked movie bass. Like someone shuts a car door and I get knocked off the couch. Although the latter has more gray area than the former. Once music is too bassy it’s just too bassy.