New AV receiver help

[snakeeyes]

I’m not aware of any content in HDCP 2.3 that doesn’t work on HDCP 2.2. They are backwards compatible. Perhaps that’s possible in 8k future content.

As far as new AVRs, the HDMI 2.1 will do eARC (some 2.0b boards also do eARC). The other thing you will see on HDMI 2.1 receivers coming out is support for HDR10+ pass thru. (Mostly a Samsung TV thing, other manufacturers do Dolby Vision). Beyond those, there is 8k and a few gamer features for fast refresh).

 

[PENG]

I think the 3600 seems the value leader.
FWIW I use a pioneer in my bedroom and it’s a nice receiver, but I like audyssey much better than mcacc. And even at its rated 125x7 seems like it just runs out of gas at high levels. It’s great for my bedroom though.
My main system uses a 6012 and I really enjoy it a lot. The Onkyo it replaced had audyssey XT and xt32 with sub eqHT is a big step up and also allows use of the audyssey app. There’s been a few mixed results with that but for 20 bucks, it’s a cheap way to tweak the system a little further.

Not that it matters sound wise, are all of the input/output rca connectors gold plated like their website claimed?

 

[lovinthehd]

The Denon x3600h has a pre amp mode for the front L&R channels just in case u ever wanted to put more power into the front channels with an external amp!

As opposed to all the Denon 3xxx models having pre-outs for using an external amp on any channel you want? Or are you referring to something else?

 

[pinifinina]

Yup, I would say the D&M website info are not 100% accurate, and would rank them as follow:
- Comparison table 95%
- Main page 95-99%, may be closer to 100% if you read carefully and interpret correctly.
- Product sheet info 99-100%
-Owner's manual info 99-100%

Someone posted that the SR6012/13/14 has gold plated RCA input/output connectors, based on Marantz website, can someone confirm that? I find that strange because even my AV7005 did not have gold plated, nor the AVR-X4400H.

Hi Peng,

I think Marantz SR6012/13/14 does have gold plated RCA input/output connector. The SR50xx does not.

 

[pinifinina]

Thanks all. I checked out the Anthem receivers and they are a bit more than I was hoping to spend. The 3500/3600 seems like a win at the moment. The 3500 is tempting at 45% off currently. However, I may take your advice Kai and hold out for the 3600. However I'm only running a 5.1 system so I have no need for the extra channels at this time. Possibly in the future though. Otherwise the specs seem to be the same from what I can tell. I'm sure in time it will drop in price much like the 3500. I'm not in a huge rush at the moment so I can wait it out. I was looking at Yammies too but as stated, they all seem to have similar features and ratings for the most part.

Question. Is there a concerning difference between HDCP 2.2 and 2.3 that I should care about? Seems like a lot of 2018 model AVs come with 2.2 but 19 models and up seem to be moving towards 2.3. I'm still kind of confused about HDCP. From what I understand its has to do with copyright stuffs and the way equipment and devices talk to each other. Would an HDCP 2.2 receiver not communicate with a 2.3 device?

Hi Newfang,

One of the main advantage for Denon 3600 is that the front left and right pre-out "can be" completely disconnected from the internal amp, this means in the future if you want to give more power to the front left and right by adding a power amp, your are ensured that the pre-out from the Denon 3600 is giving a clean output to the power amp, this means the signal will be clean and much less distorted and can go up to more than 4Vrms, which is a BIG DEAL.

Unlike many other receivers, when you use the pre-outs, the internal amplifier is still connected even there is no load (no speaker connect to the speaker terminal), so you when crank up the volume, the receiver still pumping power to the internal amplifier even though there is no speaker connected to it. What you want is when you are using pre-outs, and when you turn up the volume, the internal amp is doing nothing, it is completed disconnected to the pre-out. The Denon 3600 does EXACTLY that, BUT! ONLY to the front left and right channels and also, you need to reassign the internal front and left channel amp to something else like the heights.

I would recommend you go read/watch the Denon 3600 review on Audioholics, @gene explained it very well.

 

[lovinthehd]

Hi Newfang,

One of the main advantage for Denon 3600 is that the front left and right pre-out "can be" completely disconnected from the internal amp, this means in the future if you want to give more power to the front left and right by adding a power amp, your are ensured that the pre-out from the Denon 3600 is giving a clean output to the power amp, this means the signal will be clean and much less distorted and can go up to more than 4Vrms, which is a BIG DEAL.

Unlike many other receivers, when you use the pre-outs, the internal amplifier is still connected even there is no load (no speaker connect to the speaker terminal), so you when crank up the volume, the receiver still pumping power to the internal amplifier even though there is no speaker connected to it. What you want is when you are using pre-outs, and when you turn up the volume, the internal amp is doing nothing, it is completed disconnected to the pre-out. The Denon 3600 does EXACTLY that, BUT! ONLY to the front left and right channels and also, you need to reassign the internal front and left channel amp to something else like the heights.

I would recommend you go read/watch the Denon 3600 review on Audioholics, @gene explained it very well.

Ah, was wondering if you were referring to that. So what is the measurement/spec for the pre-out for L/R channels without the amp assign switched thus for pre-amp duties? I don't see that Sound United provided that measurement..... I think @PENG has delved into this but don't remember the details....

 

[PENG]

Hi Newfang,

One of the main advantage for Denon 3600 is that the front left and right pre-out "can be" completely disconnected from the internal amp, this means in the future if you want to give more power to the front left and right by adding a power amp, your are ensured that the pre-out from the Denon 3600 is giving a clean output to the power amp, this means the signal will be clean and much less distorted and can go up to more than 4Vrms, which is a BIG DEAL.

Unlike many other receivers, when you use the pre-outs, the internal amplifier is still connected even there is no load (no speaker connect to the speaker terminal), so you when crank up the volume, the receiver still pumping power to the internal amplifier even though there is no speaker connected to it. What you want is when you are using pre-outs, and when you turn up the volume, the internal amp is doing nothing, it is completed disconnected to the pre-out. The Denon 3600 does EXACTLY that, BUT! ONLY to the front left and right channels and also, you need to reassign the internal front and left channel amp to something else like the heights.

I would recommend you go read/watch the Denon 3600 review on Audioholics, @gene explained it very well.

I think you may have misunderstood what Gene said about the 3600 pre out disconnection from the power amp feature. That is not a preamp mode like the AVR-X8500H offers. It is simply a fact that if you select the front left/right channel to "pre out" when running 7.1.4, the front left/right channel amps get assigned to the height channels, resulting in the front left/right pre outs disconnected from the power amp. That feature is not unique to the 3600. It is the same for all Denon and Marantz AVRs that are capable of processing 11.1 channels, including the older 2017 models such as the AVR-X4400H, X6400H, SR6012, and SR7012. I am quite sure (though not 100%) even the 2016 AVR-X4300H, SR7011 can do the same. Again, it is NOT a preamp mode, and it only works for the front left and right channels and only if you select the 11.1 channel layout and assign the front left/right channels to pre out.

 

[PENG]

Hi Peng,

I think Marantz SR6012/13/14 does have gold plated RCA input/output connector. The SR50xx does not.

I know what I have read, but I am hoping one of the owners such as @ryanosaur and @William Lemmerhirt, or @Pogre can confirm it. Again, I don't believe it matters at all, but I am curious to know the fact.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Not that it matters sound wise, are all of the input/output rca connectors gold plated like their website claimed?

I can in fact report that they are.
It really lines up with my golden ears!!! I got out the Hershey’s syrup and was about to pour it on top of the 6012 and my wife caught me and said What are you Doing? I said I wanted chocolaty midrange, to go with my golden connectors and golden ears!!!
Yeah right! Jk. Yes they are indeed gold.

 

[pinifinina]

I think you may have misunderstood what Gene said about the 3600 pre out disconnection from the power amp feature. That is not a preamp mode like the AVR-X8500H offers. It is simply a fact that if you select the front left/right channel to "pre out" when running 7.1.4, the front left/right channel amps get assigned to the height channels, resulting in the front left/right pre outs disconnected from the power amp. That feature is not unique to the 3600. It is the same for all Denon and Marantz AVRs that are capable of processing 11.1 channels, including the older 2017 models such as the AVR-X4400H, X6400H, SR6012, and SR7012. I am quite sure (though not 100%) even the 2016 AVR-X4300H, SR7011 can do the same. Again, it is NOT a preamp mode, and it only works for the front left and right channels and only if you select the 11.1 channel layout and assign the front left/right channels to pre out.

Hi Peng,

You are absolutely correct! You have definitely explain it much better than I have. I am a lousy "explainer" )
Speaking of pre-amp mode, do you know if the Denon 4500 and Marantz 6013 supports it? And when they say they support pre amp mode, does it mean for ALL channels? I mean if I use the preouts for 5.1, does it really mean all of the internal amp is completely disconnected from the pre-out so the receiver is now in fact a pure processor?

 

[PENG]

Hi Peng,

You are absolutely correct! You have definitely explain it much better than I have. I am a lousy "explainer" )
Speaking of pre-amp mode, do you know if the Denon 4500 and Marantz 6013 supports it? And when they say they support pre amp mode, does it mean for ALL channels? I mean if I use the preouts for 5.1, does it really mean all of the internal amp is completely disconnected from the pre-out so the receiver is now in fact a pure processor?

As I said earlier, all of the 11.1 processing capable AVRs have that same feature, that includes the 2017/18 models and likely the 206 models as well. That means you can only "cheat" to disconnect the front left and front right pre-outs to the corresponding front left and right power amps. The pre-outs of the other channels will remain connected to the corresponding power amp channels.

If you are using 5.1, you will still use the "amp assign menu to select "11.1 ch assign mode", and select Pre-out to "Front", and Height Sp to 4 Ch. In doing so, the front left and front right channels will be internally disconnected from their corresponding pre-outs and get connected to the height channel pre-outs instead, thereby leaving the front left and front right channels connected to your external two channel amps only.

That also means the AVR will work like it has a preamp mode if used in a 2.1 setup but configure as 11.1. In most cases, this may be just academic anyway, and have little practical value. Even the low cost AVR-X3500H's pre-outs have measured THD+N at acceptably low level for up to 1.5 V, that's more than enough to push most 200 WPC power amps to their limits. Even at the 2 V level, you are talking THD+N of about 0.02%, and 2 V pre-out will drive a 400 W 29 dB gain power amp to its rated output.

 

[pinifinina]

As I said earlier, all of the 11.1 processing capable AVRs have that same feature, that includes the 2017/18 models and likely the 206 models as well. That means you can only "cheat" to disconnect the front left and front right pre-outs to the corresponding front left and right power amps. The pre-outs of the other channels will remain connected to the corresponding power amp channels.

If you are using 5.1, you will still use the "amp assign menu to select "11.1 ch assign mode", and select Pre-out to "Front", and Height Sp to 4 Ch. In doing so, the front left and front right channels will be internally disconnected from their corresponding pre-outs and get connected to the height channel pre-outs instead, thereby leaving the front left and front right channels connected to your external two channel amps only.

That also means the AVR will work like it has a preamp mode if used in a 2.1 setup but configure as 11.1. In most cases, this may be just academic anyway, and have little practical value. Even the low cost AVR-X3500H's pre-outs have measured THD+N at acceptably low level for up to 1.5 V, that's more than enough to push most 200 WPC power amps to their limits. Even at the 2 V level, you are talking THD+N of about 0.02%, and 2 V pre-out will drive a 400 W 29 dB gain power amp to its rated output.

Thank you PENG for the explanation, I originally thought all those high grade receivers with pre-amp mode means all channels can be disconnected therefore making the receiver into a pure processor. Now I know it is still only for the front 2 channels.

 

[PENG]

Thank you PENG for the explanation, I originally thought all those high grade receivers with pre-amp mode means all channels can be disconnected therefore making the receiver into a pure processor. Now I know it is still only for the front 2 channels.

Thanks to Gene, now we know this trick. It is still a good trick that can potentially improve sq for the front two channels under certain conditions.

 

[lovinthehd]

FWIW I believe my 4520 (also an 11.1 processor) also with the pre-out mode in amp assign does that for all channels, i.e. only provide a pre-out signal and disconnects the amps....but never tested that!

 

[Steelersfan]

As opposed to all the Denon 3xxx models having pre-outs for using an external amp on any channel you want? Or are you referring to something else?

The 3600h pre amp feature will disconnect the front main channels from the internal amp. Its something Gene has been pushing manufacturers to do for some time now. Hopefully we see this feature in more future models

 

[lovinthehd]

The 3600h pre amp feature will disconnect the front main channels from the internal amp. Its something Gene has been pushing manufacturers to do for some time now. Hopefully we see this feature in more future models

I think I have that in my 4520 but not sure....

 

[AVUser001]

The 3600h pre amp feature will disconnect the front main channels from the internal amp. Its something Gene has been pushing manufacturers to do for some time now. Hopefully we see this feature in more future models

Its not really a true "pre-amp" mode like what Denon 8500 offers. See PENG's explanation above..,this workaround/feature of disengaging the front mains from the corresponding pre-outs by amp assigning them to other Height channels is available on other 11.1 Denon/Marantz AVRs too, not just 3600.

 

[Steelersfan]

I think I have that in my 4520 but not sure....

Watch Genes review on the 3600h on You Tube... def can explain it better than i could

 

[Pogre]

I know what I have read, but I am hoping one of the owners such as @ryanosaur and @William Lemmerhirt, or @Pogre can confirm it. Again, I don't believe it matters at all, but I am curious to know the fact.

Yeah, they're gold plated. That why I went wit the 6011. When it dies I'm adding the input connectors to my collection of gold teeth, sell 'em all and retire.

 

[Newfang]

First off, I'd like to thank everyone for taking the time to comment, give advice, respond and educate me. I already knew coming here that my knowledge of HT audio was severely limited but I'm trying to follow along and do some research on my own, even if some of it is going over my head at the moment.

As stated, I currently only have a 5.1 system (Polk Sig series). I am just learning now about pre-amps as I've had no experience with one. From what I understand, the pre-amp basically takes the load off the receiver and does the heavy lifting for what ever channels you chose to hook up to it, giving a cleaner signal/sound? Do most people only use a pre-amp for the front L/R's because they would be the most power hungry channels? Again, sorry for the barrage of probably dumb sounding questions.

Edit: I'm running Polk S50s for front L/R's which I know are decent but not high end speakers by any means. Is the difference in quality/sound worth an expensive pre-amp?

The Denon 3600 has gotten a lot of votes so far. But will probably wait it out until the price drops a bit. Need to upgrade my tv big time too so I'm looking holding out for last years models all around. Looking towards a 55" LG oled C9 or B9 as I believe they just added G-sync in the latest firmware update.