Integration of amps w/AVR

[Old Onkyo]

With Black Friday approaching, I may add an external amp. I see a lot of people advocating a 3 channel amp to handle front speakers and letting the AVR get the surrounds etc.
how do you balance or calibrate the setup like that?
for example the external amp supplied 330 wpc, but the AVR supplies 100wpc, how do I “equalize “ the sound?
thanks!

 

[ryanosaur]

With Black Friday approaching, I may add an external amp. I see a lot of people advocating a 3 channel amp to handle front speakers and letting the AVR get the surrounds etc.
how do you balance or calibrate the setup like that?
for example the external amp supplied 330 wpc, but the AVR supplies 100wpc, how do I “equalize “ the sound?
thanks!

Room correction will take care of any level adjustments that are necessary. Even if you don't use room correction (ie turn audyssey off ofther running it), letting it set distance and levels is always helpful.

 

[pwrofgrayskull]

Room correction will take care of any level adjustments that are necessary. Even if you don't use room correction (ie turn audyssey off ofther running it), letting it set distance and levels is always helpful.

Plus, IMO your most likely to notice level problems between the center and L/R. Most of your home theater sound is coming from the center and wouldn’t want it to be underpowered.

That said, a 3 ch amp is more expensive and if you care more about 2 ch music then maybe that’s better for your current situation. Many 2 ch amps have gain control that will help you match your AVR’s center channel adjustable range.

 

[ryanosaur]

for example the external amp supplied 330 wpc, but the AVR supplies 100wpc, how do I “equalize “ the sound?
thanks!

forgot to add... the difference between 100w and 200w will only be 3dB. Chances are you will likely never really push your gear that hard. Hopefully. For example, an 88dB sensitivity on a speaker would look like this as you increase power (watts on left, SPL on right):

sensitivity @88
1​	88​
2​	91​
4​	94​
8​	97​
16​	100​
32​	103​
64​	106​
128​	109​
256​	112​
512​	115​

You can see that every 3dB requires a doubling of power. At 1 meter, 256w will result in 112dB... if you sit 6' away in a moderate room where you receive some reinforcement by reflected soundwaves, you may experience ~109dB. That is ear-bleeding loud, and louder than Reference level dynamic peaks.

It's nice to have the headroom... more power than necessary... so when you do have a dynamic peak in your program, you can get that punch. But keep in mind:
(I remind myself of this frequently)
You might never really be using more than 16-32w. (In regular everyday listening, that is.)

Always a fav of the friends here: you should use this to see what kind of effect adding amplification will have in your space:
Peak SPL Calculator

Cheers!

 

[PENG]

With Black Friday approaching, I may add an external amp. I see a lot of people advocating a 3 channel amp to handle front speakers and letting the AVR get the surrounds etc.
how do you balance or calibrate the setup like that?
for example the external amp supplied 330 wpc, but the AVR supplies 100wpc, how do I “equalize “ the sound?
thanks!

In case you might be interested in a slightly more technical narrative:

- An amp's level is dependent on the voltage that feeds it and the gain of the amp.

- Most popular brand AVRs such as Yamaha, Onkyo, D&M's internal power amps have a gain of about 29 dB, that is equivalent to about 28.18 times, or Vout/Vin = 28.18

- A 1 V input signal will be amplified by the AVR (gain is about 29 dB, assuming it is a Yamaha, Denon or Marantz) to about 28.18 V and the power output will be:

28.28X28.18/8 = about 100 W.

- If you connect an external amp that also has a gain of about 29 dB gain such as the Marantz MM7055, MM8077, the output voltage will be the same for the same input signal, so the level will be matched without you doing anything.

- If you connect an external with higher or lower gain than that of you AVR, say 29 dB if it is a Denon, Marantz or Yamaha AVR, then you would have to adjust the level in the AVR's set up manual and that is very easy to do with the help of a SPL meter. Easier if you just re-run auto setup, that is Audyssey for D&M's and YPAO for Yamaha's. Such auto setup program will match the level for you as already mentioned by others.

So there is no issue even if your external amplifier is rated 1,000 W. The levels will match that with the AVR's internal amps as long as the gains are the same or within 1 dB or so and by re-running auto setup, they would get level matched anyway without you doing it manually.

- A more powerful amplifier simply let you crank up the volume higher to get louder without as much distortions as what you would get with a less powerful amp.

 

[Old Onkyo]

Thanks for the help guys!
is it a fallacy for me to think that adding external amplification will yield cleaner crisper more detailed sound at lower volume levels? More so when pushed?

 

[Leemix]

Thanks for the help guys!
is it a fallacy for me to think that adding external amplification will yield cleaner crisper more detailed sound at lower volume levels? More so when pushed?

Not just by adding an external amp, they differ a lot in quality also.
And there are a lot of people on these forums that say there is no difference anyway unless to avoid clipping.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Pogre]

Thanks for the help guys!
is it a fallacy for me to think that adding external amplification will yield cleaner crisper more detailed sound at lower volume levels? More so when pushed?

I don't think it's fallacious, even if it is just in your head, lol. Seriously tho, if you're happy with your speakers and want some additional amplification there's nothing wrong with that. I say go for it, I did!

I say "happy with your speakers" because if you're really looking for a sonic improvement your money would be better spent upgrading those.

 

[Verdinut]

Thanks for the help guys!
is it a fallacy for me to think that adding external amplification will yield cleaner crisper more detailed sound at lower volume levels? More so when pushed?

There may be exceptions, but in theory it's a fallacy to think that adding external amplification will yield improved sound at low volume levels, if each amplifier is driven within its limits.

 

[lovinthehd]

Plus, IMO your most likely to notice level problems between the center and L/R. Most of your home theater sound is coming from the center and wouldn’t want it to be underpowered.

That said, a 3 ch amp is more expensive and if you care more about 2 ch music then maybe that’s better for your current situation. Many 2 ch amps have gain control that will help you match your AVR’s center channel adjustable range.

While you would of course need to set gain appropriately on an external amp, fail to see how this would be particularly useful to match the center channel level.....unless your avr had no other way of doing so (which would be a pretty poor avr). I'd also say most 2ch consumer amps do not have gain control....something like a pro amp you can generally count on gain control, tho.

 

[pwrofgrayskull]

While you would of course need to set gain appropriately on an external amp, fail to see how this would be particularly useful to match the center channel level.....unless your avr had no other way of doing so (which would be a pretty poor avr). I'd also say most 2ch consumer amps do not have gain control....something like a pro amp you can generally count on gain control, tho.

Not my point, you could use the power amp gain controls to bring the L/R channels into the adjustable band of the AVR. For instance, you may not want to max out the adjustable center channel level control on the AVR. This seems like the core argument against 2 channel power amps in home theater setups solely for the benefit of music listening, i.e. matching the center to the L/R.

 

[lovinthehd]

Not my point, you could use the power amp gain controls to bring the L/R channels into the adjustable band of the AVR. For instance, you may not want to max out the adjustable center channel level control on the AVR. This seems like the core argument against 2 channel power amps in home theater setups solely for the benefit of music listening, i.e. matching the center to the L/R.

I've not had such variations with the external amps I've used myself where the avr's adjustment was extreme like that. Never noticed such an argument/problem with 2ch amps connected to an avr generally either. Not been an issue with a variety I've used, altho I do prefer an amp to have gain control like my pro amps have had.

 

[Grandzoltar]

forgot to add... the difference between 100w and 200w will only be 3dB. Chances are you will likely never really push your gear that hard. Hopefully. For example, an 88dB sensitivity on a speaker would look like this as you increase power (watts on left, SPL on right):

sensitivity @88
1​	88​
2​	91​
4​	94​
8​	97​
16​	100​
32​	103​
64​	106​
128​	109​
256​	112​
512​	115​

You can see that every 3dB requires a doubling of power. At 1 meter, 256w will result in 112dB... if you sit 6' away in a moderate room where you receive some reinforcement by reflected soundwaves, you may experience ~109dB. That is ear-bleeding loud, and louder than Reference level dynamic peaks.


It's nice to have the headroom... more power than necessary... so when you do have a dynamic peak in your program, you can get that punch. But keep in mind:
(I remind myself of this frequently)
You might never really be using more than 16-32w. (In regular everyday listening, that is.)

Always a fav of the friends here: you should use this to see what kind of effect adding amplification will have in your space:
Peak SPL Calculator

Cheers!

So your outlaw monoblocks are not really needed then are they.

 

[ryanosaur]

So your outlaw monoblocks are not really needed then are they.

Only in certain circumstances. But that’s the grand conundrum with external amps... when do you really need them. I suspect with multi channel music in my 7-channel setup right now, I am only slightly using them. With Atmos, it becomes more apparent that they would be needed.
I will say that in multi-channel music, the rig overall sounds glorious. I don’t know if I would go without, at this point.

 

[PENG]

To use car analogy again, even small suvs nowadays are often turbo charged and can accelerate from 0-60 mph in under 7 seconds, yet most normal people still always accelerate gently and only take advantage of the quick acceleration capability to get out of trouble. Ryan may not actually need those monoblocks, but they may get him out of trouble if and when need/opportunities arise. My center channel does not need it either, but for $299 (might have been lower), I thought it was good to have it.

 

[ryanosaur]

I’ve an extra moment and thought I would share the example of why I chose to put 5 mono blocks on my rig, rather than just sit back and let the AVR handle everything.
First, the speakers are rated at 86dB sensitivity; all 5 that are amped with the Outlaw 2200s. I sit ~2m away (little further, but for simplicity...) in a small room, so considering reinforcement, I may only be down 3dB at my seat.
Most times, in stereo listening, I might not really exceed -10, but I have been known to push it depending on the mood and what I’m listening too or watching...
So... 1w at reference level. *shrugs Big whoop.
With an 86dB speaker, in stereo. *yawns
Now extrapolate what happens if I am pushing my system at reference level with all channels active:
Assuming the 70% rule, my AVR cr@ps out just under reference level dynamic peaks @1m.
I don’t trust the 70% rule, and even though Dennis has taken great care in designing these speakers and they present an easy load to drive, why would I leave that on the table?
I chose, for the sake of headroom and good operating parameters, to add the amps for the specific reason of listening to multi-channel programs.
My SACD collection, limited as it is, sounds great when I crank it. And yes, I do sometimes push the bounds of safety. The EU would shut me down as an unsafe environment due to SPL. Much like the orchestras that can’t practice at FFF because it is deemed unsafe!
That said, my calculations are that I need to exceed the available power of my AVR by roughly another 70w just to hit those dynamics at reference level. Account for some additional headroom, say about 250w into 6ohms...
Voila!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I’ve an extra moment and thought I would share the example of why I chose to put 5 mono blocks on my rig, rather than just sit back and let the AVR handle everything.
First, the speakers are rated at 86dB sensitivity; all 5 that are amped with the Outlaw 2200s. I sit ~2m away (little further, but for simplicity...) in a small room, so considering reinforcement, I may only be down 3dB at my seat.
Most times, in stereo listening, I might not really exceed -10, but I have been known to push it depending on the mood and what I’m listening too or watching...
So... 1w at reference level. *shrugs Big whoop.
With an 86dB speaker, in stereo. *yawns
Now extrapolate what happens if I am pushing my system at reference level with all channels active:
Assuming the 70% rule, my AVR cr@ps out just under reference level dynamic peaks @1m.
I don’t trust the 70% rule, and even though Dennis has taken great care in designing these speakers and they present an easy load to drive, why would I leave that on the table?
I chose, for the sake of headroom and good operating parameters, to add the amps for the specific reason of listening to multi-channel programs.
My SACD collection, limited as it is, sounds great when I crank it. And yes, I do sometimes push the bounds of safety. The EU would shut me down as an unsafe environment due to SPL. Much like the orchestras that can’t practice at FFF because it is deemed unsafe!
That said, my calculations are that I need to exceed the available power of my AVR by roughly another 70w just to hit those dynamics at reference level. Account for some additional headroom, say about 250w into 6ohms...
Voila!

I think you forgot the most important thing brother.
Because. You. Can.

 

[ryanosaur]

I think you forgot the most important thing brother.
Because. You. Can.

Oh ya! Derp.
*shrugs


PS... you got ur extra pair of thermals on, yet?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Oh ya! Derp.
*shrugs


PS... you got ur extra pair of thermals on, yet?

Lol. Nope. We had a heat wave today. Made it all the way up to 44°.
I’m so done with winter already. Haven’t even had any measurable snow yet.

 

[ryanosaur]

Lol. Nope. We had a heat wave today. Made it all the way up to 44°.
I’m so done with winter already. Haven’t even had any measurable snow yet.

Pssst, Bill... um...
...
Its still Autumn.

...
Winter is coming!!!