Can a High End Receiver compete with High End Separates

[Mikado463]

SIDE NOTE: I think the Onkyo amp looks very cool with the dials.

I think you mean 'meters' .........

 

[davidscott]

Granted, Onkyo is not the first name that comes to mind these days, but I remember way back when (80s, early 90s maybe?) before they launched their Integra line, they were putting out products named "Onkyo Integra" and were very highly regarded alongside Sony ES and Pioneer Elite (as well as Nakamichi and higher end Denon).

Don't forget NAD.

 

[3db]

While in most cases, better quality parts are in separates. A lot of electronics are crammed into avr's and usually when al that stuff is crammed into one box, the audio quality will suffer, but some will not notice. @ channel separates are made and designed with one goal in mind, and that is to sound good. As mentioned before, it's an old debate. Kind of like, do all amps sound the same. And it probably boils down to preference and how good of an ear you have. None of it or anyone elses opinion should affect your decision. Let your ears be the judge.
All that being said, my preference is separates.

The costs of separates is not so much because better components are used but rather that volume of sales is low compared to that of AVRs. The seperates manufacturers dont have the buying clout that the AVR manufacturers have. Yamaha knows how to marry both digital and analog world's into one chassis without affecting audio quality. That being said, my statements is of the top tier models, not the entry level models where compromises have to be made to enter the targetted price point.

 

[CoryW]

Hi there,

can someone please tell me if a high end receiver like a marantz sr8012 or a denon x8500h can compete in audio quality with an onkyo m5000r power connected to a p3000r pre amp?
let´s imagine we would connect both to a good pair of speakers, would we be able to tell a diference if we did a blind test?
ive been searching around these questions and the separates vs receivers videos but the more i search the more confused i get....


Best regards

I believe my aging, but mean Pioneer VSX-59TXI is the finest stereo/multi channel device I have ever heard or owned thus far. I’ve owned some really great separate gear from Denon and Nakamichi. The Pioneer was a bit pricey for a receiver, but what a great sound.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

but it can damn near 'dbl down' (150 watts into 4 ohms),how many run of the mill AVR's can do that ? and in the world of separates 5k for a stereo amp and preamp is actually pretty cheap. I do agree though that Onkyo is not what comes to mind when one thinks 'high end' separates .....

Yeah I’m not debating AVR vs Separate. Just separates vs separates. I think most people would look at Luxman, Yamaha, Marantz, Anthem, Bryston, Rotel, maybe Adcom. I was going to say Parasound, but not after the Halo P5 disaster.

What are some others?

 

[KEW]

Hi there,

can someone please tell me if a high end receiver like a marantz sr8012 or a denon x8500h can compete in audio quality with an onkyo m5000r power connected to a p3000r pre amp?
let´s imagine we would connect both to a good pair of speakers, would we be able to tell a diference if we did a blind test?
ive been searching around these questions and the separates vs receivers videos but the more i search the more confused i get....


Best regards

Because you say in a blind test (and, more properly double blind) I believe the answer is you would not notice a difference. I have personally experienced how sighted test has allowed my mind to convince me of clear night/day differences when a later blind test revealed their were no clear differences to my ear alone.
I do not believe anyone would argue that the differences between electronics (assuming you are not overloading the electronics and that these electronics are designed using modern, proven design) are large compared to differences among speakers, room acoustics, and recording quality.
Many writers for audio magazines will talk as if it is critical that you match a certain speaker with a certain brand of amplification because this brand is warm or something like that. However, you have to remember that these guys are paid by their advertisers and if they wrote a review of an amp that just said "it does what it is designed to do just like any other amp" they would not be in a job for long.
Of course there are differences in the pre-amp sections regarding how they allow you to control EQ, etc. but in Pure Direct, they should be the same. Certainly measurements do not show audible differences.

 

[Alex2507]

Because you say in a blind test (and, more properly double blind) I believe the answer is you would not notice a difference. I have personally experienced how sighted test has allowed my mind to convince me of clear night/day differences when a later blind test revealed their were no clear differences to my ear alone.
I do not believe anyone would argue that the differences between electronics (assuming you are not overloading the electronics and that these electronics are designed using modern, proven design) are large compared to differences among speakers, room acoustics, and recording quality.
Many writers for audio magazines will talk as if it is critical that you match a certain speaker with a certain brand of amplification because this brand is warm or something like that. However, you have to remember that these guys are paid by their advertisers and if they wrote a review of an amp that just said "it does what it is designed to do just like any other amp" they would not be in a job for long.
Of course there are differences in the pre-amp sections regarding how they allow you to control EQ, etc. but in Pure Direct, they should be the same. Certainly measurements do not show audible differences.

So you're saying he needs a bigger amp.

 

[Shanman]

So you're saying he needs a bigger amp.

Yep, and preferably one that goes to "11".

 

[Mikado463]

Yeah I’m not debating AVR vs Separate. Just separates vs separates. I think most people would look at Luxman, Yamaha, Marantz, Anthem, Bryston, Rotel, maybe Adcom. I was going to say Parasound, but not after the Halo P5 disaster.

What are some others?

actually what you have named is pretty much 'middle of the road' or the low side of 'high end'. Not that they are bad, just the opposite, actually very good ! In that category I'd add Rogue Audio as well.

High end - Accuphase, Audio Research, Boulder, MBL, D'Agostino, PASS, Esoteric, Lamm, Plinius, to name but a few that I've listened to over the years.
I'll also add Technics, especially the SE-R1.

 

[Mr._Clark]

"Tonality with voices and instruments is wonderfully lifelike and unfailingly accurate in a soundstage that grows and shrinks perfectly with the size of the piece being played."

Wow! It does a gorgeous babe and a fat lady all at the same time! My Denon AVR-X4400 receiver is jealous.

The problem with my system is that it only does gorgeous babe so I never know when it’s over

 

[Mikado463]

actually what you have named is pretty much 'middle of the road' or the low side of 'high end'. Not that they are bad, just the opposite, actually very good ! In that category I'd add Rogue Audio as well.

High end - Accuphase, Audio Research, Boulder, MBL, D'Agostino, PASS, Esoteric, Lamm, Plinius, to name but a few that I've listened to over the years.
I'll also add Technics, especially the SE-R1.

opps ........I for got to add Mcintosh, don't want to get the 'mac' boys upset !

 

[lovinthehd]

actually what you have named is pretty much 'middle of the road' or the low side of 'high end'. Not that they are bad, just the opposite, actually very good ! In that category I'd add Rogue Audio as well.

High end - Accuphase, Audio Research, Boulder, MBL, D'Agostino, PASS, Esoteric, Lamm, Plinius, to name but a few that I've listened to over the years.
I'll also add Technics, especially the SE-R1.

What is high end about any of these guys' processors?

 

[Mikado463]

What is high end about any of these guys' processors?

processors ? we're talking two channel amplification, do you mean in reference to design / parts / construction ?

 

[CajunLB]

What is high end about any of these guys' processors?

The price

 

[lovinthehd]

processors ? we're talking two channel amplification, do you mean in reference to design / parts / construction ?

2ch amps isn't the subject that I see, it's avrs vs separates. Not audio jewelry

 

[Mikado463]

2ch amps isn't the subject that I see, it's avrs vs separates. Not audio jewelry

lovin, you missed the point ! I was referring / answering post #25 !

 

[lovinthehd]

lovin, you missed the point ! I was referring / answering post #25 !

Oh, so it's ADTG who went off the rails with some brands that don't have processors....gotcha.

 

[BriReeves629]

I think you mean 'meters' .........

Yes I did!! There is something about the meters that looks classy to me.

 

[TLS Guy]

The issue is not just about SQ, although I believe it is an issue. As I have stated often, the whole concept of a receiver is a terrible idea. The more complex the processing and the more amps that are shoe horned into one case, the worse the idea becomes. OK you can use preouts. However you have multiple amps wasting electricity pulling significant quiescent current and therefore power generating heat. Not good.

So the end result of receivers is more heat production with definite long term reliability consequences.

The heat generation is significant. With separates the pre/processor will run very cool, newer ones cooler than older ones. It also allows you to purchase solid reliable long pasting power amplification.

Then we come to the issue of obsolescence. I'm on my fourth generation of pre/pro right now after 13 years, but I still have my same power amps.

In installation a lot of attention has to be paid to air circulation, including spacing and added fans.

I have recently installed a couple of systems where pre/pros and power amps are in relatively confined quarters.

Here is a new in wall system 3.1 with passive TL sub.

Total amp power is 1000 watts all channels driven.

Now I have placed four fans in the equipment cases under thermostatic control of four judiciously placed temp. probes. Temperature is displayed in the control panel.

The temperature of all the spaces is seldom more than 2 degrees C above the room ambient temperature. The largest rise I have seen is 4 C above ambient when pushing it hard. None of the fans have yet come on.

Now no receiver would deliver that kind of robust power into four ohm loads (All are 4 ohm). Even if working at lower power, I'm certain those spaces would be much above ambient, and the fans would be running a good deal of the time, if not all of the time. I'm not even sure that design/layout using a receiver would even be sensible or practical. This issue has to have a bearing on reliability and replacement rate. Every solid sate device has a time temperature curve. The higher the operating temperature the shorter the life of the components will be.

By the way the other relatively confined system has had the same result and the fans are yet to come on.

The downside is economic. However if people were sensible and opted for separates then the cost of a pre/pro would obviously be lower than receivers. Owners would then invest in much longer lived power amps. So costs over time I believe would be substantially less.

So in essence this lower quality receiver option is driven by consumer behavior, which I believe to be fundamentally misguided.

These are just some of the reasons I do not purchase or use receivers and never will.

 

[KEW]

The issue is not just about SQ, although I believe it is an issue. As I have stated often, the whole concept of a receiver is a terrible idea. The more complex the processing and the more amps that are shoe horned into one case, the worse the idea becomes. OK you can use preouts. However you have multiple amps wasting electricity pulling significant quiescent current and therefore power generating heat. Not good.

So the end result of receivers is more heat production with definite long term reliability consequences.

The heat generation is significant. With separates the pre/processor will run very cool, newer ones cooler than older ones. It also allows you to purchase solid reliable long pasting power amplification.

Then we come to the issue of obsolescence. I'm on my fourth generation of pre/pro right now after 13 years, but I still have my same power amps.

In installation a lot of attention has to be paid to air circulation, including spacing and added fans.

I have recently installed a couple of systems where pre/pros and power amps are in relatively confined quarters.

Here is a new in wall system 3.1 with passive TL sub.

Total amp power is 1000 watts all channels driven.

Now I have placed four fans in the equipment cases under thermostatic control of four judiciously placed temp. probes. Temperature is displayed in the control panel.

The temperature of all the spaces is seldom more than 2 degrees C above the room ambient temperature. The largest rise I have seen is 4 C above ambient when pushing it hard. None of the fans have yet come on.

Now no receiver would deliver that kind of robust power into four ohm loads (All are 4 ohm). Even if working at lower power, I'm certain those spaces would be much above ambient, and the fans would be running a good deal of the time, if not all of the time. I'm not even sure that design/layout using a receiver would even be sensible or practical. This issue has to have a bearing on reliability and replacement rate. Every solid sate device has a time temperature curve. The higher the operating temperature the shorter the life of the components will be.

By the way the other relatively confined system has had the same result and the fans are yet to come on.

The downside is economic. However if people were sensible and opted for separates then the cost of a pre/pro would obviously be lower than receivers. Owners would then invest in much longer lived power amps. So costs over time I believe would be substantially less.

So in essence this lower quality receiver option is driven by consumer behavior, which I believe to be fundamentally misguided.

These are just some of the reasons I do not purchase or use receivers and never will.

While I do not believe there is a significant difference in sound quality (assuming he AVR has adequate power for the speakers), the concept of spreading out the electronics to maintain a lower temperature is pretty irrefutable logic. I add a fan for my AVR to compensate for having everything packed in one case, I believe this keeps the operating temperature well below what a typical AVR would see. However, if separate pre-amps were not so expensive, I'd follow your example!