My experiance with a Crown XLS power amp

[Danzilla31]

thread bump,


anyone else have any feedback?

debating between the 1502 & 2002 for my KEF Q750 towers

the review of the 1502 here show's the amp clipping at roughly 64% of it's rated power

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-crown-xls-1502-amp.6062/

I have 2 of the 1002 and 1502 4 of them all together.

I liked them a lot unfortunately I ran into a ground loop problem that I didn't want to spend the money on isolating and correcting so I went ahead and took them out of the system and put in the Emotivas I had which aren't susceptible to the loop

I also when ABing them back and forth felt I heard that thinness to the upper end as well but that was without blind testing so it Couldve just been bias it is only a subjective experience I can give on that without proper blind testing

I did really like them tho and feel they are an excellent choice especially for the money

 

[lovinthehd]

thread bump,


anyone else have any feedback?

debating between the 1502 & 2002 for my KEF Q750 towers

the review of the 1502 here show's the amp clipping at roughly 64% of it's rated power

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-crown-xls-1502-amp.6062/

"Clipping" of .008% THD, tho

 

[Ernie Schmuntz]

I

Hey all,

I rarely post but have been a long time reader and thought it may be useful to share my recent experience, particularly for folks on a budget.

My system is:
Yamaha rxv 2600
SVS pc13 ultra
Axiom m80, vp150 and qs8's
ps3

I recently was looking into purchasing an amp to drive the front channels as I have a desire to move to separates and was curious to see if an external amp would improve sound quality at all, this seemed like a good first step. I looked at a bunch of options that were pricey and I was willing to pay, but I ran across a few threads about using Crown XLS amps and I decided to give it a try.
I initially wanted two of the smallest amp, the 1002 and use each in bridged mode however the noise floor is better on the higher end models so I went with a single Crown xls 2502.

I did some testing this weekend, I'm going to listen to various things for another week or so then remove the amp, re-calibrate and listen to the same materials again. Ill follow up with my experiences when done but thought I would toss out a teaser and maybe start some discussion.

The wife went out of her way to let me know she thought it sounded better and gave me her approval for the upgrade if I like it.

I picked up an XLS1502 just to play with a class D amp. The two channel sound was really good. It’s very clean, very powerful, but not up to the snuff when compared to an older Pioneer flagship MOSFET receiver. But just for fun, I bridged it and placed it with my RBH 1010SEN/R sub. Holy crap does this bugger ever do well on sub duty. It’s superior to my tried n true SA400. It is bottomless, immensely powerful, tight and so very clean. I put the earplugs in and hit the gas. Pictures fall, cats sprint, windows and doors rattling,the entire basement room came alive Sheetrock and all. The signal meters on the amp stayed on the first mark with just a smidge of the second flashing every so often. No clipping, woofers hitting their stride with massive pressure waves rolling through the butt/chest. And the amp, cool to the touch. It’s only 9 friggin pounds. It’s not natural. I was not a believer. It takes quality current to move the excellent RBH to that level. They never maxed out in the heaviest load. Both had room to spare, but I couldn’t take the risk on the sub. I can’t afford new woofers, and this amp could damage something driven carelessly.

 

[lovinthehd]

I


I picked up an XLS1502 just to play with a class D amp. The two channel sound was really good. It’s very clean, very powerful, but not up to the snuff when compared to an older Pioneer flagship MOSFET receiver. But just for fun, I bridged it and placed it with my RBH 1010SEN/R sub. Holy crap does this bugger ever do well on sub duty. It’s superior to my tried n true SA400. It is bottomless, immensely powerful, tight and so very clean. I put the earplugs in and hit the gas. Pictures fall, cats sprint, windows and doors rattling,the entire basement room came alive Sheetrock and all. The signal meters on the amp stayed on the first mark with just a smidge of the second flashing every so often. No clipping, woofers hitting their stride with massive pressure waves rolling through the butt/chest. And the amp, cool to the touch. It’s only 9 friggin pounds. It’s not natural. I was not a believer. It takes quality current to move the excellent RBH to that level. They never maxed out in the heaviest load. Both had room to spare, but I couldn’t take the risk on the sub. I can’t afford new woofers, and this amp could damage something driven carelessly.

You might try other class D designs, particularly those utilizing the ncore modules, altho icepower is viable as well as even the Crown design. The subjective amp comparisons I find useless generally, tho.

 

[Ernie Schmuntz]

I have 2 of the 1002 and 1502 4 of them all together.

I liked them a lot unfortunately I ran into a ground loop problem that I didn't want to spend the money on isolating and correcting so I went ahead and took them out of the system and put in the Emotivas I had which aren't susceptible to the loop

I also when ABing them back and forth felt I heard that thinness to the upper end as well but that was without blind testing so it Couldve just been bias it is only a subjective experience I can give on that without proper blind testing

I did really like them tho and feel they are an excellent choice especially for the money

I also had a nasty ground loop issue with another Crown model. I ran a ground wire from my power distribution device to my main receiver, and put a ground loop device on my Comcast cable. This ended the issue. It also resolved the same issue in my bedroom system with a RBH A-400 amp and Yamaha receiver. Very frustrating. I had success with a Rolls device before the grounding cable.

I feared that a class D amp would not pass muster like a good ol 50-80lb amp. The Crown didn’t sound as good as my Pioneer, but it is a $4k receiver vs $400 amp. Still very surprised and happy.

 

[Boomzilla]

I've owned and listened critically to the original Crown XLS series amplifiers, from the XLS-1000 to the 2500. Yes, they put out a lot of power. No, they definitely were NOT ready for home audio prime-time. They had a glassy-sounding upper midrange & treble, and the lacked the delicacy of most of the amps that were intended for good home audio. Yes, the original XLS series WAS better than the amps in an AVR, but that isn't saying much. In short, I thought Andrew Robinson was deaf, on Crown's advertising staff, or else just plain nuts.

Now the series 2 XLS amps are supposed to be much better, from what I've read. As I'd expect from any "modern" class-D amp, the glassiness is reduced, and the strengths of the original XLS line (rabid-dog bass and enough power to challenge Thor) are still there. Are "true hi-fi" amps still better sounding? I think that some are, but the XLS series 2 has narrowed the gap. Compared to any AVR on the market, the Crowns still kick booty, but if you're willing to spend more money, you can do audibly better than the XLS line.

So it depends on what you want. If you have a pair of speakers that need the Crown's power to sing (I'm thinking of Magneplanars here or maybe some of the low-sensitivity British brands), then the XLS-2 line is going to be competitive with anything in its price range. But the VAST majority of "cone in box" speakers these days are designed to be close to or above 90 dB sensitivity (1W/1M) and can easily be driven by less powerful amps than the Crowns. Can you find equivalently priced amps that sound better (although with less watts)? I think you can.

But it's your money and your choice. My "advice" and a buck will get you a cup of McCoffee. Just for fun, I was gifted recently with an old amplifier from a movie theater. It was a "pro" brand from a company called "Ashly." It sports all class-A voltage gain stages and a MOSFET output. Weighs 60 lbs. but it kicks for home audio. Its only flaw is its cooling fan that is always on and sounds like a taxiing jet on the runway. Despite its age, I think it sounds better than the Crowns but that's just to my ears and in my room.

Boomzilla

 

[Pogre]

So the Axiom M80s op has look like they might be nice speakers. Dual tweeters (dual everything) is a li'l different. In my reading that could amount to a mess, but done properly..?

Anyone ever listened to these?

M80 In-cabinet Speakers

This M80 In-cabinet speaker is designed for the audiophile who wants it all: the detailed, thrilling M80 tower sound but without revealing the speaker.

www.axiomaudio.com

*Edit: And check out this crazy center channel! Is that a "TMT" design? I get the intent, better dispersion from a horizontal speaker, but I've never seen it before.

 

[Boomzilla]

So the Axiom M80s op has look like they might be nice speakers. Dual tweeters (dual everything) is a li'l different. In my reading that could amount to a mess, but done properly..?

Anyone ever listened to these?

In fact, my audio buddy owns a pair of generation 3 Axiom M80s. I have, in the past, owned a pair of generation 4 M80s and a pair of M100s. The Axioms are most definitely "done properly." They do require watts and current into their four-ohm impedance to make them come alive. My audio buddy uses a pair of generation two Emotiva XPA-1 mono-blocks with the first 60 watts all class-A. His system sounds amazing.

I found that in my room, the M80 speakers actually sounded more coherent than the M100s. Yes, the M100s could do "more bass," but ultimately the tonality of the M80s was better. I tried bi-amplifying my Axioms using Crown PS-400 amplifiers, and the effect was noticeable.

The prices on Axiom products have increased significantly in the past few years, but I still consider them a good bargain for the money.

 

[CajunLB]

So the Axiom M80s op has look like they might be nice speakers. Dual tweeters (dual everything) is a li'l different. In my reading that could amount to a mess, but done properly..?

Anyone ever listened to these?

M80 In-cabinet Speakers

This M80 In-cabinet speaker is designed for the audiophile who wants it all: the detailed, thrilling M80 tower sound but without revealing the speaker.

www.axiomaudio.com

View attachment 34719

*Edit: And check out this crazy center channel! Is that a "TMT" design? I get the intent, better dispersion from a horizontal speaker, but I've never seen it before.

View attachment 34720
[/QUO

So the Axiom M80s op has look like they might be nice speakers. Dual tweeters (dual everything) is a li'l different. In my reading that could amount to a mess, but done properly..?

Anyone ever listened to these?

M80 In-cabinet Speakers

This M80 In-cabinet speaker is designed for the audiophile who wants it all: the detailed, thrilling M80 tower sound but without revealing the speaker.

www.axiomaudio.com

View attachment 34719

*Edit: And check out this crazy center channel! Is that a "TMT" design? I get the intent, better dispersion from a horizontal speaker, but I've never seen it before.

View attachment 34720

In fact, my audio buddy owns a pair of generation 3 Axiom M80s. I have, in the past, owned a pair of generation 4 M80s and a pair of M100s. The Axioms are most definitely "done properly." They do require watts and current into their four-ohm impedance to make them come alive. My audio buddy uses a pair of generation two Emotiva XPA-1 mono-blocks with the first 60 watts all class-A. His system sounds amazing.

I found that in my room, the M80 speakers actually sounded more coherent than the M100s. Yes, the M100s could do "more bass," but ultimately the tonality of the M80s was better. I tried bi-amplifying my Axioms using Crown PS-400 amplifiers, and the effect was noticeable.

The prices on Axiom products have increased significantly in the past few years, but I still consider them a good bargain for the money.
[/QUOTE

In fact, my audio buddy owns a pair of generation 3 Axiom M80s. I have, in the past, owned a pair of generation 4 M80s and a pair of M100s. The Axioms are most definitely "done properly." They do require watts and current into their four-ohm impedance to make them come alive. My audio buddy uses a pair of generation two Emotiva XPA-1 mono-blocks with the first 60 watts all class-A. His system sounds amazing.

I found that in my room, the M80 speakers actually sounded more coherent than the M100s. Yes, the M100s could do "more bass," but ultimately the tonality of the M80s was better. I tried bi-amplifying my Axioms using Crown PS-400 amplifiers, and the effect was noticeable.

The prices on Axiom products have increased significantly in the past few years, but I still consider them a good bargain for the money.

I though I remembered Axiom having a reputation for being a good bang 4 buck reputation years ago. They are definitely not budget speakers anymore. I think Axiom is the company @gene had a falling out with the owner several years ago. Those threads might be deleted because it got kind of heated.

 

[lovinthehd]

I've owned and listened critically to the original Crown XLS series amplifiers, from the XLS-1000 to the 2500. Yes, they put out a lot of power. No, they definitely were NOT ready for home audio prime-time. They had a glassy-sounding upper midrange & treble, and the lacked the delicacy of most of the amps that were intended for good home audio. Yes, the original XLS series WAS better than the amps in an AVR, but that isn't saying much. In short, I thought Andrew Robinson was deaf, on Crown's advertising staff, or else just plain nuts.

Now the series 2 XLS amps are supposed to be much better, from what I've read. As I'd expect from any "modern" class-D amp, the glassiness is reduced, and the strengths of the original XLS line (rabid-dog bass and enough power to challenge Thor) are still there. Are "true hi-fi" amps still better sounding? I think that some are, but the XLS series 2 has narrowed the gap. Compared to any AVR on the market, the Crowns still kick booty, but if you're willing to spend more money, you can do audibly better than the XLS line.

So it depends on what you want. If you have a pair of speakers that need the Crown's power to sing (I'm thinking of Magneplanars here or maybe some of the low-sensitivity British brands), then the XLS-2 line is going to be competitive with anything in its price range. But the VAST majority of "cone in box" speakers these days are designed to be close to or above 90 dB sensitivity (1W/1M) and can easily be driven by less powerful amps than the Crowns. Can you find equivalently priced amps that sound better (although with less watts)? I think you can.

But it's your money and your choice. My "advice" and a buck will get you a cup of McCoffee. Just for fun, I was gifted recently with an old amplifier from a movie theater. It was a "pro" brand from a company called "Ashly." It sports all class-A voltage gain stages and a MOSFET output. Weighs 60 lbs. but it kicks for home audio. Its only flaw is its cooling fan that is always on and sounds like a taxiing jet on the runway. Despite its age, I think it sounds better than the Crowns but that's just to my ears and in my room.

Boomzilla

Mind telling us about how you critically listen to and compare various amps? The gen 2 are the same essential amp sections, just some features to make it a bit more consumer friendly....

 

[Boomzilla]

Mind telling us about how you critically listen to and compare various amps? The gen 2 are the same essential amp sections, just some features to make it a bit more consumer friendly....

I have not heard the 2 series Crown XLS amps. Everything I've said about them comes from reading others' experiences with them on the internet. If the Gen. 2 XLS Crowns truly have the same amp sections, then I'd expect them to sound identical to the Gen 1 models, regardless of features.

In fact the entire paragraph that I typed beginning with the sentence "Now the series 2 XLS amps are supposed to be much better, from what I've read." implies very clearly that I'm repeating what I've read, not speaking from personal experience.

I'd stick by my summary that the XLS series Crowns (original or Generation 2) are better (and in most cases significantly better) than the vast majority of AVRs. I base that solely on my actual experience with the generation one Crowns.

But I'll definitely walk back then on saying that the Crown XLS amps "have narrowed the gap" with "hi-fi" amplifiers. SOME class D amplifiers definitely HAVE narrowed that gap (the Emotiva PA-1 comes to mind immediately), but apparently "pro" amps, like the Crown XLS models, are still back in "who cares about the sonics when we can deliver all this power" territory.

It's a shame, and I apologize for being gullible enough to repeat what I've read online without actually verifying it with my own ears. Mia culpa.

Boomzilla

And might I ask a broad question, please? Is anyone here familiar enough with the Crown amplifier line to explain (briefly and in layman's terms) the differences between their different product lines? A brief glance at their web page lists 15 different amplifier varieties. The feature I want is the ability to play the amplifier in stereo but with an internal, configurable high-pass filter for both channels. This would allow me to use the crossover on the plate amps of the subwoofer pair and match the turnover frequency with the amplifier high-pass. I know that the XLS series will do this, but I find the sound quality of the XLS series lacking. Do any of the other Crown amplifier lines actually sound better?

Thanks - Boom

 

[lovinthehd]

I have not heard the 2 series Crown XLS amps. Everything I've said about them comes from reading others' experiences with them on the internet. If the Gen. 2 XLS Crowns truly have the same amp sections, then I'd expect them to sound identical to the Gen 1 models, regardless of features.

In fact the entire paragraph that I typed beginning with the sentence "Now the series 2 XLS amps are supposed to be much better, from what I've read." implies very clearly that I'm repeating what I've read, not speaking from personal experience.

I'd stick by my summary that the XLS series Crowns (original or Generation 2) are better (and in most cases significantly better) than the vast majority of AVRs. I base that solely on my actual experience with the generation one Crowns.

But I'll definitely walk back then on saying that the Crown XLS amps "have narrowed the gap" with "hi-fi" amplifiers. SOME class D amplifiers definitely HAVE narrowed that gap (the Emotiva PA-1 comes to mind immediately), but apparently "pro" amps) like the Crown XLS models, are still back in "who cares about the sonics when we can deliver all this power" territory.

It's a shame, and I apologize for being gullible enough to repeat what I've read online without actually verifying it with my own ears. Mia culpa.

Boomzilla

To my knowledge there was no change to the amp section....gen 2 brings the black case, adjustable sensitivity, a bit different crossover range, ability to turn lights off....I've not read much about the claim that gen 2 is any different in any audible way.

So these are purely sighted listening sessions you judge on?

 

[PENG]

To my knowledge there was no change to the amp section....gen 2 brings the black case, adjustable sensitivity, a bit different crossover range, ability to turn lights off....I've not read much about the claim that gen 2 is any different in any audible way.

So these are purely sighted listening sessions you judge on?

Don't we all know by now such subjective experience is not debatable or explainable?

 

[lovinthehd]

Don't we all know by now such subjective experience is not debatable or explainable?

Well always willing to check out how it was done, altho not likely to be impressed.

 

[Boomzilla]

How I assess:

I measure the component with REW and a calibrated UMIK
I listen to the component with a variety of associated gear
Once I've formed my opinions, but without divulging them, I invite friends to listen and share their opinions
I say what I've concluded

And I don't give a flying flip whether or not you're "likely to be impressed."

 

[lovinthehd]

How I assess:

I measure the component with REW and a calibrated UMIK
I listen to the component with a variety of associated gear
Once I've formed my opinions, but without divulging them, I invite friends to listen and share their opinions
I say what I've concluded

And I don't give a flying flip whether or not you're "likely to be impressed."

I'm not. You can measure speakers with REW, but how do you measure components with it?

 

[shadyJ]

So the Axiom M80s op has look like they might be nice speakers. Dual tweeters (dual everything) is a li'l different. In my reading that could amount to a mess, but done properly..?

Anyone ever listened to these?

M80 In-cabinet Speakers

This M80 In-cabinet speaker is designed for the audiophile who wants it all: the detailed, thrilling M80 tower sound but without revealing the speaker.

www.axiomaudio.com

View attachment 34719

*Edit: And check out this crazy center channel! Is that a "TMT" design? I get the intent, better dispersion from a horizontal speaker, but I've never seen it before.

View attachment 34720

The tower with two tweeters isn't a good design decision. It's going to bring in a lot of comb-filtering in treble. It's hard to say how problematic that comb-filtering would be, but it would certainly show up in a measurement. Since they are aligned vertically and not too far spaced from each other, it might only be an issue in high treble, like maybe above 7 kHz or so since that is the wavelength of the distance that those tweeters seemed to be spaced by (maybe 2").

The center speaker, on the other hand, is a terrible design. That is bound to have significant audibility issues, and it will measure horrendously in the tweeter's frequency band. It will be a phasey mess. What the hell were they thinking!? It really makes me skeptical of Axiom's ability to competently engineer anything.

 

[CajunLB]

The tower with two tweeters isn't a good design decision. It's going to bring in a lot of comb-filtering in treble. It's hard to say how problematic that comb-filtering would be, but it would certainly show up in a measurement. Since they are aligned vertically and not too far spaced from each other, it might only be an issue in high treble, like maybe above 7 kHz or so since that is the wavelength of the distance that those tweeters seemed to be spaced by (maybe 2").

The center speaker, on the other hand, is a terrible design. That is bound to have significant audibility issues, and it will measure horrendously in the tweeter's frequency band. It will be a phasey mess. What the hell were they thinking!? It really makes me skeptical of Axiom's ability to competently engineer anything.

Didn’t @gene have a falling out with Axiom’s owner or designers? If I remember correctly it was something about putting drivers all over the box not being a very good idea. This was several years ago.

 

[John Parks]

I know this thread is about the Crown amps, but thanks to @Pogre I am reliving some terrible memories (of the 1st World Problems variety). Around '02 or so, I purchased a pair of Axiom Audio M22 V2s based on a plethora of online reviews (Soundstage's being the most prominent).

The big takeaway from the reviewers was their "neutrality". If their collective idea of "neutrality" meant "boring" then they got it right. Gosh, I hated those speakers! Maybe things have improved in Axiom country (and no offense to any Axiom owners - that's just my experience YMMV [greatly]) but I am not in a hurry to find out.

On a positive note, I guess, is that they manufacture for Bryston - Bryston then slaps their name on 'em and charges accordingly:

That's each.

 

[panteragstk]

Didn’t @gene have a falling out with Axiom’s owner or designers? If I remember correctly it was something about putting drivers all over the box not being a very good idea. This was several years ago.

I remember that. That was a fun time.