At It Again, Broke Out The Umik

[Pogre]

So I decided yesterday to bust everything out and experiment with the Audyssey Editor app and got some pretty good results. I'm going to be doing some more today because yesterday was a lot of refamiliarizing with the REW and MiniDSP software. What I did here was removed all filtering in the Mini and ran Audyssey setup with the app. These charts are my preliminary results with Audyssey with no tweaking at all.

The REW measurements are EQ 1 and EQ 2 with no DEQ, then a sweep with DEQ 0, 5, 10 and 15. I think these are some pretty decent results. Last night I tweaked with the editor a little bit and sent the tweaks to my receiver. I'll be measuring and comparing the differences in a little bit. I'll post more later. Off to a good start so far tho!

 

[TheWarrior]

You've painted a very clear picture of where your room is influencing the sound, as the peaks and dips are evident in every measurement.

This is where the dimensions of your room, and the placement of every speaker/sub, LFE crossover, and all of your DSP inputs... everything is needed to fully interpret these measurements and prescribe placement/ DSP solutions.

So without ALOT more information, guessing is all that can be done.

 

[Pogre]

Okay, my experience with the app editor is pretty different this time and I'm happy with it. Happy enough that I think I can let Audyssey handle the subs by itself and I can try using the Mini on the bass sections of my towers. I'm gonna try and go for that lower crossover setting I've been going on about for the last year or so.

 

[Pogre]

You've painted a very clear picture of where your room is influencing the sound, as the peaks and dips are evident in every measurement.

This is where the dimensions of your room, and the placement of every speaker/sub, LFE crossover, and all of your DSP inputs... everything is needed to fully interpret these measurements and prescribe placement/ DSP solutions.

So without ALOT more information, guessing is all that can be done.

I tried repositioning my towers yesterday a couple of different ways and I'm still getting the same results when I measure. What I haven't tried yet is moving the subs. I'm considering moving them completely away from my speakers and just measuring my towers by themselves to see what it does.

What more info are you looking for Alex? I have everything set up and can do some pretty quick and dirty measurements right now.

 

[Pogre]

I did a little tweaking using the editor app and did another sweep.

It looks like I'm +/- 3 dB from 100 hz to about 15 hz if I'm reading that correctly? That is with some very minimal tweaking with the app. I'm pretty happy with this result so early into it.

 

[TheWarrior]

I tried repositioning my towers yesterday a couple of different ways and I'm still getting the same results when I measure. What I haven't tried yet is moving the subs. I'm considering moving them completely away from my speakers and just measuring my towers by themselves to see what it does.

What more info are you looking for Alex? I have everything set up and can do some pretty quick and dirty measurements right now.

Sorry... dog needed to go outside...

"This is where the dimensions of your room, and the placement of every speaker/sub, LFE crossover, and all of your DSP inputs... everything is needed to fully interpret these measurements and prescribe placement/ DSP solutions."

I restated this because this is the bulk of the information needed to properly interpret any measurements when dealing with bass.

All of those peaks and dips are well with in audibility, (3dB is what the average person describes as a noticeable change in perceived volume) and they are the cause of some notes not coming through, or others being too loud - a cajon that is "tight and fast" vs "bloated" if you will...

So if we take these first measurements you have posted, then you need to provide all of the above mentioned information to provide more than guessing.

But if you start moving your subs first, everything you have input (levels, DSP, Audyssey, EVERYTHING) will need to be erased and you're right back at square one.

 

[Pogre]

My towers by themselves in Pure Direct. Pretty ugly.

I did move them around yesterday, more than a little bit, and did sweeps after each position change. There were little to no improvements so I put them back where they were. I'm wondering if moving my subs will (and I think it will) change things for the better. Right now they're very close to my towers and they each have one of those 8" drivers firing right into the sides of both subs.

If that does help things then my issue is going to be finding new homes for them. Also... it's more work than I feel like tackling right now... sigh.

 

[Pogre]

Sorry... dog needed to go outside...

"This is where the dimensions of your room, and the placement of every speaker/sub, LFE crossover, and all of your DSP inputs... everything is needed to fully interpret these measurements and prescribe placement/ DSP solutions."

I restated this because this is the bulk of the information needed to properly interpret any measurements when dealing with bass.

All of those peaks and dips are well with in audibility, (3dB is what the average person describes as a noticeable change in perceived volume) and they are the cause of some notes not coming through, or others being too loud - a cajon that is "tight and fast" vs "bloated" if you will...

So if we take these first measurements you have posted, then you need to provide all of the above mentioned information to provide more than guessing.

But if you start moving your subs first, everything you have input (levels, DSP, Audyssey, EVERYTHING) will need to be erased and you're right back at square one.

Yeah, I know. Right now there's no DSP on anything outside of what Audyssey did. I erased everything I had in the Mini with intentions of starting over. I bypassed the Mini completely by taking it out of the loop, measured, then connected it back up and measured again to be sure it wasn't adding or taking away anything. Both sweeps, with the Mini in the loop and taken back out are identical so I left it in the loop with no adjustments.

 

[Pogre]

But if you start moving your subs first, everything you have input (levels, DSP, Audyssey, EVERYTHING) will need to be erased and you're right back at square one.

Oh, and yesterday when I moved stuff around the sweeps I did were all in Pure Direct, so absolutely no DSP at all. I wanted to see how close I could get things strictly with positional EQing.

 

[Pogre]

These 2 sweeps are with Audyssey set on FLAT and DEQ is OFF. 60 hz and 120 hz crossovers.

You can pretty easily tell which is which, lol. Again, this is with no Mini, Audyssey room correction only.

 

[Verdinut]

These 2 sweeps are with Audyssey set on FLAT and DEQ is OFF. 60 hz and 120 hz crossovers.

View attachment 31421

You can pretty easily tell which is which, lol. Again, this is with no Mini, Audyssey room correction only.

It looks like the Audyssey editor app works pretty well with the low frequencies. I'm inclined to believe it can correct frequency response inaccuracies caused by room gain in smaller rooms.
I think I just have to plan to eventually get a Denon or Marantz AVR which has the Audyssey XT32 EQ feature to replace my SR5010.

 

[Pogre]

It looks like the Audyssey editor app works pretty well with the low frequencies. I'm inclined to believe it can correct frequency response inaccuracies caused by room gain in smaller rooms.
I think I've just have to plan to eventually get a Denon or Marantz AVR which has the Audyssey XT32 EQ feature to replace my SR5010.

Yes, it's working very well on my subs. Everything below whatever crossover point I choose is pretty solid. Right now I have the Mini in the chain between the bass sections of my towers and amplifier. I'm gonna try generating some filters and see what happens. From the looks of things unless I do some major moving in my room I might just have to be happy with a higher crossover setting. My room and tower speakers just don't want to play well together.

 

[TheWarrior]

My towers by themselves in Pure Direct. Pretty ugly.

View attachment 31420

I did move them around yesterday, more than a little bit, and did sweeps after each position change. There were little to no improvements so I put them back where they were. I'm wondering if moving my subs will (and I think it will) change things for the better. Right now they're very close to my towers and they each have one of those 8" drivers firing right into the sides of both subs.

If that does help things then my issue is going to be finding new homes for them. Also... it's more work than I feel like tackling right now... sigh.

Towers only? Notice that you have a dip in the 40's in the same place as you did with the subs? That's called a room mode. And if both subs are up front by the towers, then that should be all you need to know to confirm the need to move a subwoofer closer to the LP.

Assuming you do still have both subs up front, just pull one sub 3+ feet forward, and measure again at the same place. You should see that mid 40's dip, rise.

Wherever you end up actually moving one sub to, it will influence the room modes in a whole new way. So while the 40's dip can go away, new peaks or dips will come up. And they are ALWAYS related to the dimensions of the parallel boundaries of your room when talking about bass.

By writing out ALL of the parallel boundaries (and yes I remember your room has many) you can chart the resonant frequencies of your space, relative to the listening position, and list the modes out by length, width and height. With that information, you can then start to make a lot more sense out of these measurements!

 

[KEW]

My towers by themselves in Pure Direct. Pretty ugly.

View attachment 31420

My room and tower speakers just don't want to play well together.

That is curious!
Have you tried locating your subs where the towers are and measuring PD just to see if you get the same problems with low bass that you see above?

Oh, and thanks for verifying that the current version of the app resolved your main concerns from your earlier frustrating attempts to use it! It works well enough for me, but I wasn't sure if that was because of different AVRs etc.

 

[Pogre]

Towers only? Notice that you have a dip in the 40's in the same place as you did with the subs? That's called a room mode. And if both subs are up front by the towers, then that should be all you need to know to confirm the need to move a subwoofer closer to the LP.

Yup towers only. Subs have always measured better than my towers. I don't have that huge dip with my subs. Only in pure direct, towers playing by themselves.

So, I gave up on trying to tweak my towers so I can set a lower crossover point. It's pointless because I'm certain it's a room mode and the only fix is making some big, major changes and moving stuff around. So I let Audyssey do its thing, then ran a sweep and generated some filters with REW. I didn't go very aggressive with the filter parameters either. It wasn't necessary because Audyssey got it pretty damned close. After that I went in and manually put 2 dB high shelf at 25 hz and down. Check it out. Before and after REW.

That's weird. When I saved those images the vertical scale was in 5 dB increments. Huh. Well, the actual sweeps still look the same. Except for a little goofiness at 75-80 hz or so I'm pretty flat from 100 hz down to about 15 hz. I think I can live with that! That dip at 75 hz and the peak right after at about 78 hz have been an anomaly every single time I've taken measurements. I'm just gonna leave it. This is one of the best looking charts I've had and I did it with the least amount of filtering. I'm very tickled with these results!

 

[TheWarrior]

Yup towers only. Subs have always measured better than my towers. I don't have that huge dip with my subs. Only in pure direct, towers playing by themselves.

So, I gave up on trying to tweak my towers so I can set a lower crossover point. It's pointless because I'm certain it's a room mode and the only fix is making some big, major changes and moving stuff around. So I let Audyssey do its thing, then ran a sweep and generated some filters with REW. I didn't go very aggressive with the filter parameters either. It wasn't necessary because Audyssey got it pretty damned close. After that I went in and manually put 2 dB high shelf at 25 hz and down. Check it out. Before and after REW.
View attachment 31437
View attachment 31435
View attachment 31439
View attachment 31436

That's weird. When I saved those images the vertical scale was in 5 dB increments. Huh. Well, the actual sweeps still look the same. Except for a little goofiness at 75-80 hz or so I'm pretty flat from 100 hz down to about 15 hz. I think I can live with that! That dip at 75 hz and the peak right after at about 78 hz have been an anomaly every single time I've taken measurements. I'm just gonna leave it. This is one of the best looking charts I've had and I did it with the least amount of filtering. I'm very tickled with these results!

Audyssey modifies frequency at the expense of phase, which you leave out of your measurements for some reason. So it's worth figuring out why the dip in the 40's went away, but the peaks and dips from the 50's and up, remain (despite the before's and after's being in different increments - sure makes things look smooth, don't it? ;-)

 

[Pogre]

Audyssey modifies frequency at the expense of phase, which you leave out of your measurements for some reason. So it's worth figuring out why the dip in the 40's went away, but the peaks and dips from the 50's and up, remain (despite the before's and after's being in different increments - sure makes things look smooth, don't it? ;-)

Yup. Sure makes things sound awesome too. I'm super happy how things turned out.

 

[Pogre]

It's difficult to say if there are any major improvements from what I had before, but I listened to a couple of albums yesterday and it sounds as good as I've ever heard it. Bass like BBBBBBBB and highs like SSSSSSSSS!!!

One thing I haven't played with yet is the Filter Frequency Range slider. I haven't decided if I want to get the stuff out again today. Still chasing the sleep cobwebs away with coffee right now, lol.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

It's difficult to say if there are any major improvements from what I had before, but I listened to a couple of albums yesterday and it sounds as good as I've ever heard it. Bass like BBBBBBBB and highs like SSSSSSSSS!!!

One thing I haven't played with yet is the Filter Frequency Range slider. I haven't decided if I want to get the stuff out again today. Still chasing the sleep cobwebs away with coffee right now, lol.

I have used the slider a bit, but have not measured my results so anything I say will be anecdotal. I do like the limiting feature, and it kind of acts like “bypass” accept audyssey MultEQ xt32 with sub eq can still do its thing to about 300hz, as long as they’re crossed low enough. I am going to experiment with this a lot more when I get time. Probably won’t be for awhile since I’ll be wintering all my stuff and that seems like a never ending job.
BUT!!! Good on ya mate, for digging it out, and I’m curious to see what YOU come up with.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Oh almost forgot.....

What...........

PS: maybe it should be bass like buh... no?