DACs; quality and sound

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But their cables are quite expensive, though

They probably lie about that too.

 

[killdozzer]

His two first posts in 2005 was sort of debunked and he waited 11 years to gather enough courage to post again

Something else caught his attention. When I retire, he'll give me what I had coming.

 

[awdio]

No, actually the Denon 3808 & 4308 have the Burr-Brown PCM 1791, which is Third in line. The Numbering system is messed up: #1 is PCM-1792, #2 is 1796, #3 is 1791.

The Denon 2808 has PCM-1803, which is further down the road.

So, the ultimate Burr-Brown DAC is the 1792 (only found in the $3,800 DVD-5910 SACD/DVD-Audio-Video player).

The #2 DAC is the 1796, which is in the $7,000 AVP-A1 pre-pro, $5,200 AVR-5308 receiver, $2,000 DVD-3800BD blu-ray, & $1,500 DVD-3930 (& DVD-3910) SACD/DVD-A-V.

I have to wonder why they would put the #2 DAC in the $7,000 AVP-A1 pre-pro, but put the #1 DAC in the $3,800 DVD player???

Because you are wrong. Yes I know this is an old thread but dislike inaccuracy so future readers will not continue this inaccuracy. Both components mentioned have the same Burr Brown 1792 DACs.

 

[PENG]

Because you are wrong. Yes I know this is an old thread but dislike inaccuracy so future readers will not continue this inaccuracy. Both components mentioned have the same Burr Brown 1792 DACs.

That is false. ADTG is right, the avr-3808/4308 (own one) have the PCM1791. Download their product sheets to see it for yourself.

 

[awdio]

If it helps, our group was unable to find an audible difference between any two DAC's or CD players manufactured after about 1990, regardless of the DAC chip used or the manufacturer or price of units involved. We couldn't get a statistically meaningful audible difference between a $3500 CD player with a 24 bit DAC and a $120 portable CD player with a 1 bit DAC. They all sounded the same in bias controlled listening tests. So I wouldn't spend a second worrying about the brand of chip used in a player or receiver. It is all marketing.

This just isn't true. If you look at the EAD DAC series 1 and the series 2, the only difference was the DAC chip. They went from an Analog Devices to a Burr Brown and the sound between the two was night and day. Perhaps you need to change the date that you think DAC chips sound the same. It definitely is not 1991.

 

[awdio]

That is false. ADTG is right, the avr-3808/4308 (own one) have the PCM1791. Download their product sheets to see it for yourself.

No you are confused to what I referred . The AVP A1HD and the Denon 5910 both have the 1792. He said the AVP had the 1796.

 

[awdio]

No you are confused to what I referred . The AVP A1HD and the Denon 5910 both have the 1792. He said the AVP had the 1796.

FYI I also own both and have in the past corrected Gene for making this same mistake which he corrected in his reply to me.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No you are confused to what I referred . The AVP A1HD and the Denon 5910 both have the 1792. He said the AVP had the 1796.

From Gene's review of the AVP-A1HDCI:
https://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/denon-avp-a1hdci/design-overview

"the AVP-A1HDCI uses the very best Burr Brown PCM-1796 dual differential DAC’s (four per channel),coupled with Denon’s own proprietary DDSC-HD digital audio technology and Advanced AL24 processing for the highest linearity and lowest noise floor possible."

So if I made a typo 11 FREAKING YEARS AGO, it was based on the 11 YEAR OLD AH review.

So chill out. Geez.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

FYI I also own both and have in the past corrected Gene for making this same mistake which he corrected in his reply to me.

Wow. So proud of yourself for correcting an 11 YEAR typo.

Yeah I also used to own both the Denon 5910 and AVP-A1HDCI. Sold the Denon 5910 because it didn't sound any better than my cheap DVD player. The AVP-A1HDCI died 8 years after I bought it brand new.

So don't act like you're the only one around here who has owned a few components.

Wait another 11 years before you respond to this one. Geez.

 

[PENG]

No you are confused to what I referred . The AVP A1HD and the Denon 5910 both have the 1792. He said the AVP had the 1796.

I am not confused, your post#103 was misleading, but thanks for clarifying which two components you actually referred to.

 

[PENG]

Wow. So proud of yourself for correcting an 11 YEAR typo.

Yeah I also used to own both the Denon 5910 and AVP-A1HDCI. Sold the Denon 5910 because it didn't sound any better than my cheap DVD player. The AVP-A1HDCI died 8 years after I bought it brand new.

So don't act like you're the only one around here who has owned a few components.

Wait another 11 years before you respond to this one. Geez.

I agree with his point about accuracy, perhaps his tone could be better, such as allowing for the "typo" possibily, but we all have different styles..

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I agree with his point about accuracy, perhaps his tone could be better, such as allowing for the "typo" possibily, but we all have different styles..

Never wrong to correct any typos for sure.

But his tone is typical audiophile BS, especially when he wrote:

They went from an Analog Devices to a Burr Brown and the sound between the two was night and day. Perhaps you need to change the date that you think DAC chips sound the same. It definitely is not 1991.

And acts like nobody around here has owned ooh "high-end" components. Ooh Ahh so impressive.

 

[PENG]

Never wrong to correct any typos for sure.

But his tone is typical audiophile BS, especially when he wrote:



And acts like nobody around here has owned ooh "high-end" components. Ooh Ahh so impressive.

I don't know, if you live in the North pole, on a nice summer day, night and day may not be all that different depending on the hours you pick.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't know, if you live in the North pole, on a nice summer day, night and day may not be all that different depending on the hours you pick.

Oh it’s that the vampire movie “30 Days of Night”?

Then night and day would be the same.

 

[awdio]

If it helps, our group was unable to find an audible difference between any two DAC's or CD players manufactured after about 1990, regardless of the DAC chip used or the manufacturer or price of units involved. We couldn't get a statistically meaningful audible difference between a $3500 CD player with a 24 bit DAC and a $120 portable CD player with a 1 bit DAC. They all sounded the same in bias controlled listening tests. So I wouldn't spend a second worrying about the brand of chip used in a player or receiver. It is all marketing.

OMG Were all your ears amputated as a membership requirement?

 

[Phase 2]

Bits are bits, 1 and 0 don't change. That's why Vinyl can sound better than 1's and 0's with different chipsets.

 

[awdio]

I basically said the same thing earlier, but I am changing my mind a little now that I see the difference in prices between the DACs. In a multichannel situation you need quite a few of DACs in a mid end player such as the 3930. The cost difference between the 1796 and the 1792 is >$10. Say you multiply this by 4, that's $40. By the time you factor in the profit margin, this can easily add $100 for each player. The low prices you cited are probably for huge volumes, if that's the case (just guessing) and assuming Denon sells much more 3930 than 5910, the cost difference between the DACs will be even greater. There may also be cost difference between the chipset and analog circuits associated with the DACs.

I still agree the cost differential is not that significant, but it does add up to the point where Denon can justify not putting those high end 1792 in their 3930s, especially when they know full well there is no audible difference between the 1792 and 1796.

Multiply only by 4? If run in dual differential mode you would need 4 dacs per channel. My processor uses 28 of them.

 

[PENG]

Multiply only by 4? If run in dual differential mode you would need 4 dacs per channel. My processor uses 28 of them.

I was using the DVD3930 as example. It actually has 5 pieces of the PCM1796 so I was out by one.
One each for the L/R, C/SW, SR/SL and one each for the MIXL and MIXR.