Bi-wire/bi-amp

[Sparkus]

Before everyone casts stones allow me to acknowledge I've read tons of posts on the subject. Let me further state, I don't want to argue the semantics. What I am going for with this thread is the idea of frequency disturbance on speaker wire.
Long story short...my RTi A7's were a disappointment and prompted work. After a frustrating few days I ordered a Parasound 2350 amp, against all advice I received from the esteemed members here, and promptly returned it with a loss of abt $60 for the trial. Needless to say...listen to those who know. After that I set about the basics...wiring. Basically, any signal wiring I have seperated from AC power and have also included a drain to system ground in all pathways. That really made no difference, but it's good as a preventative measure.
Throughout I have been reading about bi-wiring/bi-amping. I avoided it as nearly all posts relegated it a waste of time.
This weekend, unfortunately at the end of a holiday weekend, I finally tried it after reading a 9 year old argument on the subject. One poster pointed out the frequency effect between low and high and the impact on a single cable feeding both. That resonated. It was logical so I tried it.
Wire the same, same length, wired up and the Onkyo TX RZ820 setting for bi-amp changed to "yes", (bi-amp is Onkyo's reference not mine).
Marked difference. I increased clarity at volume and overall quality. The low end is punchy and the high is not distorted at volume as it was before. The mid is clear, defined...none of it perfect mind you...far better out there, but the improvement is incredibly.
I will continue with the basics, wiring, while I find the better system. Still sub shopping.
In the meantime, any ideas on if the frequency between low and mid/high actually create issues in the high range? Or throughout.

 

[Russdawg1]

Might I ask at what volume level you noticed this at?

And what was the point about the Parasound section? I didn’t understand.

 

[Sparkus]

The Parasound was what I bought trying to get these speakers to produce...didn't help...as advised here.

In relative measurement, I couldn't get much passed 0.0db without distortion...now I can go +10db without distortion on the same song. I've been using the same artist, Norah Jones, and a few songs as measurement. After that proved, I expanded and it a carried across a wide variety of genre. It was late in the day when I finally tried but so far it's great.
I don't think it has anything to do with amplification, I tend to think this is frequency related and the effect of one frequency upon another...but that's a guess based on what I read. It makes sense to me.

The clarity overall is absolute at any volume.

I'm aware of the discussions on this subject...no intentions of anything other than does freq play a role in single wire speaker feed?
There are SO many variables here...speakers, AVR, wire...distance, termination environmental effects...
Thoughts?

 

[Verdinut]

Before everyone casts stones allow me to acknowledge I've read tons of posts on the subject. Let me further state, I don't want to argue the semantics. What I am going for with this thread is the idea of frequency disturbance on speaker wire.
Long story short...my RTi A7's were a disappointment and prompted work. After a frustrating few days I ordered a Parasound 2350 amp, against all advice I received from the esteemed members here, and promptly returned it with a loss of abt $60 for the trial. Needless to say...listen to those who know. After that I set about the basics...wiring. Basically, any signal wiring I have seperated from AC power and have also included a drain to system ground in all pathways. That really made no difference, but it's good as a preventative measure.
Throughout I have been reading about bi-wiring/bi-amping. I avoided it as nearly all posts relegated it a waste of time.
This weekend, unfortunately at the end of a holiday weekend, I finally tried it after reading a 9 year old argument on the subject. One poster pointed out the frequency effect between low and high and the impact on a single cable feeding both. That resonated. It was logical so I tried it.
Wire the same, same length, wired up and the Onkyo TX RZ820 setting for bi-amp changed to "yes", (bi-amp is Onkyo's reference not mine).
Marked difference. I increased clarity at volume and overall quality. The low end is punchy and the high is not distorted at volume as it was before. The mid is clear, defined...none of it perfect mind you...far better out there, but the improvement is incredibly.
I will continue with the basics, wiring, while I find the better system. Still sub shopping.
In the meantime, any ideas on if the frequency between low and mid/high actually create issues in the high range? Or throughout.

First, there's absolutely no advantage with bi-wiring which is a waste of money and time. If you have to reduce the wire resistance because of the long distance between the speaker and the amplifier, just use a bigger wire gauge. That silly idea runs in audiophile circles and, most likely, was invented by snake oil speaker cable manufacturers to increase their profits!
As for bi-amping, there are some advantages, but for most home use situations, there are exceptions as is the case with my system, it can also be a waste of money with no audible advantage. . You have to double the number of amplifiers and you need a separate electronic crossover. In addition, you need a pre-pro or an AVR with pre-outs to enable it to connect to the electronic crossovers and so on.

If you believe in bi-amplifying your speakers, go ahead with your thinking and spend the money, but don't question the opinion of members here who will not support yours.

 

[Russdawg1]

The Parasound was what I bought trying to get these speakers to produce...didn't help...as advised here.

In relative measurement, I couldn't get much passed 0.0db without distortion...now I can go +10db without distortion on the same song. I've been using the same artist, Norah Jones, and a few songs as measurement. After that proved, I expanded and it a carried across a wide variety of genre. It was late in the day when I finally tried but so far it's great.
I don't think it has anything to do with amplification, I tend to think this is frequency related and the effect of one frequency upon another...but that's a guess based on what I read. It makes sense to me.

The clarity overall is absolute at any volume.

I'm aware of the discussions on this subject...no intentions of anything other than does freq play a role in single wire speaker feed?
There are SO many variables here...speakers, AVR, wire...distance, termination environmental effects...
Thoughts?

Well here’s a thought.

By Bi-Amping your speakers, you send identical signals through both sets of speaker cables. The crossover just filters out the signals respectively. You haven’t actually fixed the “problem” of sending both low and high frequency signals through the same cable. So by Bi-Amping you haven’t changed anything other than supposed power delivery.

This brings me to my next point.

Your AVR has a single power supply. This means that even though you are supposed to be using more channels to get more power to the speakers, you really aren’t.... Your power supply can only deliver so much current to all the channels.

So to conclude, my thoughts are that your listening conclusions were biased.

 

[Sparkus]

Agreed, I did not truly bi-amp. From my reading the terminology on this is critical. It's actually bi-wiring I believe. I'm using 2 channels of my 7.1 AVR (in a 5.1 set) for tweeters and mids and 2 channels for woofers...L and R. Now, I understand the arguments on the amplification quality, the question is, with a single front speaker wire can you have frequency distortion? I wasted really, 20 min and the same zip wire I had to begin with...so, no waste at all...and it sounds far better. It's not amplification because I tried that...it's separating the signal between high and low frequency. Again, there are many variables, I'm only curious about frequency interactions.

 

[Sparkus]

Correct...I haven't changed anything with power...which is amp, current. That does not change however you configure the amp channel itself.
My question is, if you expect 2 or more frequencies, which may step on each other, along the same wire...do they step on each other?

 

[Verdinut]

By Bi-Amping your speakers, you send identical signals through both sets of speaker cables.

There are two ways of bi-amping:

1. You split the audio source with a "Y" connector to feed separate power amplifiers to drive the high frequency and the low frequency drivers separately, using the passive filters connected to them. That is passive bi-amping. This could be used should someone require more power headroom but the active crossover configuration is a better solution.

2. You have active bi-amping with the use of an electronic crossover feeding separate amplifiers connected directly to the speakers. This is the right way to bi-amplify an audio signal, with the advantage of the active crossover over the passive filtering system.

 

[Russdawg1]

Agreed, I did not truly bi-amp. From my reading the terminology on this is critical. It's actually bi-wiring I believe. I'm using 2 channels of my 7.1 AVR (in a 5.1 set) for tweeters and mids and 2 channels for woofers...L and R. Now, I understand the arguments on the amplification quality, the question is, with a single front speaker wire can you have frequency distortion? I wasted really, 20 min and the same zip wire I had to begin with...so, no waste at all...and it sounds far better. It's not amplification because I tried that...it's separating the signal between high and low frequency. Again, there are many variables, I'm only curious about frequency interactions.

Frequency distortion, if it exists, would not be audible.

And if it existed, would be from the driver itself not being able to carry out the proper motion to form all of those waveforms. A speaker wire can’t “jumble” electricity.

If you listened double blind, I think you’d come to the conclusion that they sound the same.

 

[Russdawg1]

Correct...I haven't changed anything with power...which is amp, current. That does not change however you configure the amp channel itself.
My question is, if you expect 2 or more frequencies, which may step on each other, along the same wire...do they step on each other?

Technically yes.

Can we hear it? Hell no. Not even microphones can hear that well.

 

[Sparkus]

Technically yes.

Can we hear it? Hell no. Not even microphones can hear that well.[/QUO

Well brother, I'm hearing it and it's in my nature to know why.

 

[Russdawg1]

You are not.

Listen double blind. Sighted bias is very real.

 

[Verdinut]

Correct...I haven't changed anything with power...which is amp, current. That does not change however you configure the amp channel itself.
My question is, if you expect 2 or more frequencies, which may step on each other, along the same wire...do they step on each other?

You don't have to worry about it. A single wire can handle all audible frequencies as it has always done in the past and at present. Otherwise, audio systems would never have existed.

 

[j_garcia]

Agreed, I did not truly bi-amp. From my reading the terminology on this is critical. It's actually bi-wiring I believe. I'm using 2 channels of my 7.1 AVR (in a 5.1 set) for tweeters and mids and 2 channels for woofers...L and R. Now, I understand the arguments on the amplification quality, the question is, with a single front speaker wire can you have frequency distortion? I wasted really, 20 min and the same zip wire I had to begin with...so, no waste at all...and it sounds far better. It's not amplification because I tried that...it's separating the signal between high and low frequency. Again, there are many variables, I'm only curious about frequency interactions.

Bi-wiring does not "separate" the frequencies, they are still amplified and running on both wires, the only difference is the drivers are discarding certain frequencies as filtered out by the x-over. Since the signal was already amplified, I don't see how this would have the ability to change the sound in any way.

I tried passive biamping before too. I also noticed what really sounded more like more headroom, which I attribute to more channels driving fewer drivers, but the actual sound itself did not change.

 

[lovinthehd]

Might want to review this article https://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring

 

[Beave]

Correct...I haven't changed anything with power...which is amp, current. That does not change however you configure the amp channel itself.
My question is, if you expect 2 or more frequencies, which may step on each other, along the same wire...do they step on each other?

The answer to your question is a simple, flat-out NO.

Speaker wires are linear devices. They can alter frequency response and amplitude, but they don't create distortion products (nonlinearities).

Either your are imagining the improvements or they are due to something else.

 

[Beave]

Bi-wiring does not "separate" the frequencies, they are still amplified and running on both wires, the only difference is the drivers are discarding certain frequencies as filtered out by the x-over. Since the signal was already amplified, I don't see how this would have the ability to change the sound in any way.

I tried passive biamping before too. I also noticed what really sounded more like more headroom, which I attribute to more channels driving fewer drivers, but the actual sound itself did not change.

The voltage is on both wires. The current is divided between the two.

Still doesn't matter, of course.

 

[Pogre]

The Parasound was what I bought trying to get these speakers to produce...didn't help...as advised here.

We advise subwoofer and you buy a parasound amp instead, against advice given. Now you want to talk to us about bi wiring, something we all know makes no difference and also advise against. I told you (in detail) when you hit me up in private messages a bigger amp wouldn't improve anything. Bi wiring also won't improve anything. A good subwoofer tho, would make a significant difference. You're not taking any of the advice given tho so I'm sure your next move will be some AudioQuest cables...

 

[PENG]

Well here’s a thought.

By Bi-Amping your speakers, you send identical signals through both sets of speaker cables. The crossover just filters out the signals respectively. You haven’t actually fixed the “problem” of sending both low and high frequency signals through the same cable. So by Bi-Amping you haven’t changed anything other than supposed power delivery.

That's a persisting misconception and might have been too often taken as fact due to hearsy!! As has been discussed on AH many times before, even in passive biamp configuration, you do send different signal currents through the two different pairs of wires due to the different impedance characteristics of the split up crossover network (jumpers removed) at the speaker end, vs sending the full spectrum signal through the same single pair of wire (in the "single wire wire/pair" configuration) at the crossover in the speaker with the jumpers joining the LF/MF/HF parts of the crossover. That is a fact so it is not disputable. What is disputable is whether this has any audible effects. IMO (just me), the effect is not audible if the passive crossover is well designed, and the amplifier used has more than enough power/current the speaker is designed for.

 

[PENG]

Bi-wiring does not "separate" the frequencies, they are still amplified and running on both wires, the only difference is the drivers are discarding certain frequencies as filtered out by the x-over. Since the signal was already amplified, I don't see how this would have the ability to change the sound in any way.

Again, that's not "exactly" the case. Too bad this seems like a huge misconception that simply get amplified on forums all the time.. If we use water and filter as analogy, it would be correct because the two pipes would in fact be carrying the same dirt in the water until it hits the filters at the other ends, but electrical current does not exactly work like this. The fact is, yes the signal voltage gets amplified, but the current in the wire is subject to the load impedance.

A) Since the crossover is separated at the speaker end, so each section would offer difference impedance to the voltage at the amp terminals, so the signal current in the wires will be different, while

B) The filtered signal currents in the short leads between the crossover output and the drivers would in fact be the same, passive biamp or not, assuming part A) has no effects in terms of distortions.

I am not disagree with the results either way though, that the important thing is to make sure the amplifier has more than enough juice for the speaker under any conditions.