Marantz or Arcam or Marantz/Monolith or Arcam/Monolith

[PENG]

Yes, I realize it's negligible, and more than likely not audible. But I guess it's the principle. If it's the company's damn flagship they're charging $2000 for, it should measure better than the lower models, all the way around. Just my opinion..

In the Audiovision.de review, the 2080 did the same vs the 3080 in 2 channel driven, 251 W vs 249 W (3080), that's margin of error.

It is 5/7 channel driven tests where the 2080 did much better, it was 111/141 W 5/7 channel driven, 6 ohms vs the 3080's 69/125 W. Still negligible but the gap is significantly numerically speaking. That makes no sense because the power supply size appear to be similar, so I think it is reasonable to assume that the 3080 simply has a more aggressive overload/overcurrent protection approach.

 

[PENG]

So here's a question. instead of making tiny enhancements with each new model like they do. What if they kept the 3090 the exact same, feature wise. But included a bigger power supply and so on that made the receiver like 50 lbs or so, gave it an honest 165 per channel and added on another 500 bucks to the price, do you think that would be a smart thing to do? Would it sell? I realize some people want 11 channels crammed into one box and Auro 3D, but I couldn't care less about either.

I highly doubt they would do it. In an old AH article, an interview with someone from Yamaha iirc, they made it clear that they (like NAD I guess..) don't think the all channel driven output thing is that important for real world use, so why spend money on larger power supply with minimal benefits, compared to focus on other areas that count?

 

[little wing]

I highly doubt they would do it. In an old AH article, an interview with someone from Yamaha iirc, they made it clear that they (like NAD I guess..) don't think the all channel driven output thing is that important for real world use, so why spend money on larger power supply with minimal benefits, compared to focus on other areas that count?

Makes sense. That's why I asked one of the resident experts here, such as yourself, to educate a simple minded music lover. LOL. Thank you sir!

 

[PENG]

Makes sense. That's why I asked one of the resident experts here, such as yourself, to educate a simple minded music lover. LOL. Thank you sir!

Just to give you some quick examples how the 3080 is justifiably a flag ship even without a larger power supply. It does have more storage/block capacitors too if that means anything to some users.

- 3080 has XLR I/O for the FL/FR
- Second/or 3rd from the top ESS DAC, i.e. ES9026 Pro vs ES9007 (apparently same specs as the ES9006 but I couldn't find the datasheet for the ES9007 no matter how hard I search)
- 11.2 preout vs the 7.2 preout that the 2080 has
- 11 channel processing, so you can do 7.1.4 Atmos, vs the 2080's 7.1.2 or 5.1.4 limit.

If they were to go with a larger power transformer, a) the unit will have to be physically larger, b) it would cost much more, as we all know you need 2X the power output to get only 3 dB more spl and you need 6 to 10X spl to perceive twice as loud. Even with a transformer twice the size, the unit will still be limited by the output devices, so the output devices will have to be larger too, and that's a lot of high power transistors, example: 4 per channel, so 36 to cover 9 channels, all for the sake of only 3 dB spl !!

Power transformers, large 80 V block capacitors, and output devices/transistors are costly. It's not hard to see which way their cost/benefit analysis would lead them to.

 

[little wing]

Just to give you some quick examples how the 3080 is justifiably a flag ship even without a larger power supply. It does have more storage/block capacitors too if that means anything to some users.

- 3080 has XLR I/O for the FL/FR
- Second/or 3rd from the top ESS DAC, i.e. ES9026 Pro vs ES9007 (apparently same specs as the ES9006 but I couldn't find the datasheet for the ES9007 no matter how hard I search)
- 11.2 preout vs the 7.2 preout that the 2080 has
- 11 channel processing, so you can do 7.1.4 Atmos, vs the 2080's 7.1.2 or 5.1.4 limit.

If they were to go with a larger power transformer, a) the unit will have to be physically larger, b) it would cost much more, as we all know you need 2X the power output to get only 3 dB more spl and you need 6 to 10X spl to perceive twice as loud. Even with a transformer twice the size, the unit will still be limited by the output devices, so the output devices will have to be larger too, and that's a lot of high power transistors, example: 4 per channel, so 36 to cover 9 channels, all for the sake of only 3 dB spl !!

Power transformers, large 80 V block capacitors, and output devices/transistors are costly. It's not hard to see which way their cost/benefit analysis would lead them to.

Since you broke it down like that, LOL, I think I am in total agreement . I still get a kick out of my 3060. Setting the towers to small and crossing everything over at 90hz, gives me good clean sound that fills the room. I talked myself out of buying an amp (for now ) Because I sit about 9 or 10 feet away from my speakers, which are fairly efficient, I think, and I rarely turn the volume up past -20dbs

 

[PENG]

Since you broke it down like that, LOL, I think I am in total agreement . I still get a kick out of my 3060. Setting the towers to small and crossing everything over at 90hz, gives me good clean sound that fills the room. I talked myself out of buying an amp (for now ) Because I sit about 9 or 10 feet away from my speakers, which are fairly efficient, I think, and I rarely turn the volume up past -20dbs

Imo, you are doing the wise thing because if you add an amp to it you will only see, but not hear better sound quality.

 

[snakeeyes]

Since you broke it down like that, LOL, I think I am in total agreement . I still get a kick out of my 3060. Setting the towers to small and crossing everything over at 90hz, gives me good clean sound that fills the room. I talked myself out of buying an amp (for now ) Because I sit about 9 or 10 feet away from my speakers, which are fairly efficient, I think, and I rarely turn the volume up past -20dbs

On 2060 you can’t use external amps for the height channels. Also I believe you lose the extra zone if you use all 4 height channels. And 7.1.4 isn’t possible, just 5.1.4 or 7.1.2.

So some of the internals are a little different between the models even though the inputs and outputs look very similar on the back. (Less preouts is one difference, and no XLR is another)

 

[PENG]

On 2060 you can’t use external amps for the height channels. Also I believe you lose the extra zone if you use all 4 height channels. And 7.1.4 isn’t possible, just 5.1.4 or 7.1.2.

So some of the internals are a little different between the models even though the inputs and outputs look very similar on the back. (Less preouts is one difference, and no XLR is another)

But he has the 3060, so he can do it if he wants to..

 

[little wing]

Imo, you are doing the wise thing because if you add an amp to it you will only see, but not hear better sound quality.

PENG - Thank you for the confirmation.

 

[snakeeyes]

But he has the 3060, so he can do it if he wants to..

Right. The 2060 is the one I have.

Just explaining the price difference.

 

[PENG]

Right. The 2060 is the one I have.

Just explaining the price difference.

Got you, was just wondering.. It is what makes it hard to compare the 20X0 to D&M's 4000/6000/7000 series. They should consider upping the 2090 to include 7.1.4 processing capability.

 

[PENG]

Looks like the German audiovision.de has similar numbers for the 3060 to soundandvision.com's, except the 7 ch driven tests. Note that they used 6 and 4 ohm test loads only.

http://audiovision.de/yamaha-rx-a3060-test/

 

[KEW]

Yes, I realize it's negligible, and more than likely not audible. But I guess it's the principle. If it's the company's damn flagship they're charging $2000 for, it should measure better than the lower models, all the way around. Just my opinion..

Marantz did the same thing with their SR-60021 and SR70021 (edit-corrected number)! I don't know if they still do with the current models, but I found a review where they had measured both and looked inside both to find they had the exact same amp sections! Marantz down rated the SR-6001 spec so it showed 10-15 less watts, but it was less expensive for them to use one amp section for both AVR's than to design (and maintain parts inventory for) a weaker amp section for the 60021!
I suspect this is also common among their lower level amps as well.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Since you broke it down like that, LOL, I think I am in total agreement . I still get a kick out of my 3060. Setting the towers to small and crossing everything over at 90hz, gives me good clean sound that fills the room. I talked myself out of buying an amp (for now ) Because I sit about 9 or 10 feet away from my speakers, which are fairly efficient, I think, and I rarely turn the volume up past -20dbs

Now if you were to get a pre-pro, then you can get an amp. Otherwise, save up and enjoy in the mean time.

 

[little wing]

Marantz did the same thing with their SR-6002 and SR7002! I don't know if they still do with the current models, but I found a review where they had measured both and looked inside both to find they had the exact same amp sections! Marantz down rated the SR-6001 spec so it showed 10-15 less watts, but it was less expensive for them to use one amp section for both AVR's than to design (and maintain parts inventory for) a weaker amp section for the 6002!
I suspect this is also common among their lower level amps as well.

Exact same amp sections?! Wow. If it wasn't for people like Gene, and other very capable reviewers, we would never know the difference, if we didn't open up stuff, exam it, and compare it.

 

[KEW]

Exact same amp sections?! Wow. If it wasn't for people like Gene, and other very capable reviewers, we would never know the difference, if we didn't open up stuff, exam it, and compare it.

I was off on the model number, it was 6001 and 7001!
The translation (Google) isn't perfect, but ...

The SR 6001 differs externally from its 400 Euro brother 7001 only by a minuteness: The logo gallery on its front panel lacks the THX logo. Great. This saves ink, but above all royalties and sound means no disadvantage.

© archive
The powerful Marantz transformer loosens a kilowatt at multi-channel full load.
Two HDMI inputs instead of four, with slightly fewer inputs and outputs - the other savings will only ever be noticed by operators of extremely complex systems. To make matters worse, the 6001 delivered identical performance values in the lab as the 7001 - Marantz has apparently only deleted what nobody needs before.

https://www.connect.de/testbericht/marantz-sr-6001-332122.html

 

[Lew2864]

Why not add Paradigm rears and Atmos and keep the whole system the same brand?

The current Paradigm speakers aren’t really the same as my Paradigm S8s.

 

[PENG]

Exact same amp sections?! Wow. If it wasn't for people like Gene, and other very capable reviewers, we would never know the difference, if we didn't open up stuff, exam it, and compare it.

For Denon/Marantz, this is still happening as recent as 2017. I am quite sure right up to 2019 as well but I have only seen the schematics for some of their 2016/2017 models.

For example, the Denon AVR-X4400H, Marantz SR6012 and SR7012 have the same schematics for their 4Ch and 5 Ch amp sections, with the same output devices, and even the voltage adjustments for the rails are identical to the decimal point. According to the specifications, the SR6012 do have higher THD, I bet it will measure just as good as the 4400 and 7012 on the bench. They do have slightly larger power supplies for the 4400 and 7012, but that's about it.

Recent Yamaha's are not available for free download, at least I couldn't find them, but I can tell you the older RX-A2030, A3030 and A2060 also share the same schematic and parts for their power amp section so by extension, the A3060 probably has the same amp section as the A2060 too.

 

[little wing]

Makes plenty of sense for these companies, when it comes to their bottom line I guess, but it's bit disappointing from the customer's standpoint.

 

[little wing]

I was off on the model number, it was 6001 and 7001!
The translation (Google) isn't perfect, but ...

https://www.connect.de/testbericht/marantz-sr-6001-332122.htmlView attachment 30549

Wow- Thanks for opening my eyes to this Kurt. Like I said in my response to PENG....I bit disappointing from the customer point of view.