Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It’s about time. Their older RF line was insanely brutal to my ears.

Actually I went back to look at some Klipsch measurements available on S&V and Stereophile, and I don't really see much boost in the treble region. If there are some treble "peaks", it's about +2dB or +3dB, which is within the usual standard +/-3dB range.

Compare any of the Klipsch measurements I found with these:

And you can see that the Paradigm and B&W Diamonds have much bigger treble peaks than Klipsch.

So I don't know.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

not until we see more Klipsch measurements that look like Shady's.

What about all the other Klipsch speakers?

I take back what I said until someone can post some links to Klipsch speakers that have treble peaks - I mean like +4dB or more under 18kHz since many people can't even hear 18kHz and above.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Agreed, but not to me as I use REW to tell me things that my ears otherwise may lie to me.

You're an android.

I may not trust other people's ears, but I trust my ears 100%.

Of course, it never hurts to use REW to confirm your ears.

So maybe that's what you mean - you DO trust your ears, but you still want to VERIFY and CONFIRM anyway.

 

[PENG]

Good news for Marantz fans may be coming if they are waiting for deals. Amazon.ca and BB is selling the SR7013 for C$1250, or US$ 940.

I wonder why suddenly the fire sale when humors has it that there there will be no 7014 coming this year after all, as D&M may want to defer their models from the AVR-X4600H and SR7014 and up to next year when they can include HDMI 2.1. The lower models X3600H and SR6014 are already out.

 

[Ken32]

Actually I went back to look at some Klipsch measurements available on S&V and Stereophile, and I don't really see much boost in the treble region. If there are some treble "peaks", it's about +2dB or +3dB, which is within the usual standard +/-3dB range.

Compare any of the Klipsch measurements I found with these:

And you can see that the Paradigm and B&W Diamonds have much bigger treble peaks than Klipsch.

So I don't know.

I don’t rightfully know how they were setup. What i do know is listening fatigue set in extremely fast. Way too sparkly up top and in your face. Definitely not my COT.

I did however like the Cornwall’s I’ve heard. I still wouldn’t give what they wanted for them. At least not without giving other companies a try first.

 

[PENG]

Found a couple reviewed by Stereophile:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-rb-15-loudspeaker-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-reference-premiere-rp-600m-loudspeaker

Dont look too bad, but not great neither. Wonder what's their distortions like?

 

[Ken32]

Rumor has it he's working on a new design! Along with that there is the upgraded Sierra 2, and very soon, the Luna Duo. If only I had an additional 5K in disposable funds!

The sierras are definitely on my radar.

I’m also setting out to try aperion audios grand verus towers as well.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Found a couple reviewed by Stereophile:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-rb-15-loudspeaker-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-reference-premiere-rp-600m-loudspeaker

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Dont look too bad, but not great neither. Wonder what's their distortions like?

Yeah. I was looking at those graphs. The 1st one had a peak of about +4dB around 18kHz. The 2nd graph didn’t really have a peak until after 20kHz.

S&V had some graphs of different Klipsch. I didn’t see any real peaks (more than +3dB) under 18kHz.

I think some people associate “HORNS” with “bright” sound.

But I don’t see any FR graphs that show any real bright sounds.

The graphs from Paradigm, B&W, and GoldenEar look a lot more bright.

 

[PENG]

Yeah. I was looking at those graphs. The 1st one had a peak of about +4dB around 18kHz. The 2nd graph didn’t really have a peak until after 20kHz.

S&V had some graphs of different Klipsch. I didn’t see any real peaks (more than +3dB) under 18kHz.

I think some people associate “HORNS” with “bright” sound.

But I don’t see any FR graphs that show any real bright sounds.

The graphs from Paradigm, B&W, and GoldenEar look a lot more bright.

I know......hearsay.........expectation bias..........Placebo........... I still want to see some THD graphs though, but couldn't find any. Soundstagenetwork seems to be the only source that has those but they have not measured a single Klipsch speakers. Maybe @shadyJ wouldn't mind using the one he did on the RP-8000F....

 

[shadyJ]

I know......hearsay.........expectation bias..........Placebo........... I still want to see some THD graphs though, but couldn't find any. Soundstagenetwork seems to be the only source that has those but they have not measured a single Klipsch speakers. Maybe @shadyJ wouldn't mind using the one he did on the RP-8000F....

I don't do distortion measurements on non-subwoofer loudspeakers. It's difficult to do accurately and also an obnoxious test tone. It also puts the speaker in danger. Just looking at the build can give you a good idea of the dynamic range anyway. The RP-8000F has plenty of clean headroom for almost anyone. You would have to drive them very loudly for distortion to become a factor.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I know......hearsay.........expectation bias..........Placebo........... I still want to see some THD graphs though, but couldn't find any. Soundstagenetwork seems to be the only source that has those but they have not measured a single Klipsch speakers. Maybe @shadyJ wouldn't mind using the one he did on the RP-8000F....

Yet, because the B&W 800D3 is $30K and has synthetic diamond tweeter, most people would not say it's "bright" sounding, even with the broad +5dB 10kHz peak.

The Paradigm 3F has a +6dB peak around 12kHz.

The Paradigm 5F has a +5dB peak around 10kHz.

Conclusion: if these speakers are not bright sounding, then the Klipsch speakers are not bright sounding either.

 

[PENG]

Yet, because the B&W 800D3 is $30K and has synthetic diamond tweeter, most people would not say it's "bright" sounding, even with the broad +5dB 10kHz peak.

The Paradigm 3F has a +6dB peak around 12kHz.

The Paradigm 5F has a +5dB peak around 10kHz.

Conclusion: if these speakers are not bright sounding, then the Klipsch speakers are not bright sounding either.

Also keep in mind some of those who can afford such speakers may have significant hearing loss in the range from 6-7kHz and up, so to them brightness may come from the 3.5 to 6 kHz range.

 

[Phase 2]

Most can't hear passed 15kHz anyways. Young people maybe. I was texting with ADTG, we both came to the conclusion that we pay a lot of money with this hobby for something we can't hear, THD, slew rate damping factor, 1.0 THD even 5.0 THD can't be heared unless you max out the volume maybe.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don’t rightfully know how they were setup. What i do know is listening fatigue set in extremely fast. Way too sparkly up top and in your face. Definitely not my COT.

I did however like the Cornwall’s I’ve heard. I still wouldn’t give what they wanted for them. At least not without giving other companies a try first.

The Klipsch you heard that were bright might have different measurements.

Also, speaker measurements might not tell us everything.

We need ear measurements.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Also keep in mind some of those who can afford such speakers may have significant hearing loss in the range from 6-7kHz and up, so to them brightness may come from the 3.5 to 6 kHz range.

Most can't hear passed 15kHz anyways. Young people maybe.

Yeah, different hearing acuity and sensitivity, different brains.

When I owned the B&W 802D2, some people said it sounded "bright", while some people said it sounded "warm".

No telling.

 

[Phase 2]

Yeah, different hearing acuity and sensitivity, different brains.

When I owned the B&W 802D2, some people said it sounded "bright", while some people said it sounded "warm".

No telling.

Source room acoustics the room itself I believe has a lot to do with that sound like bright or warm

 

[PENG]

Source room acoustics the room itself I believe has a lot to do with that sound like bright or warm

Yep, my 2 channel room is cool and bright, my HT room is dark and warm.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yep, my 2 channel room is cool and bright, my HT room is dark and warm.

I prefer my HT room to be dark and cool when I'm watching a movie.

 

[KEW]

Agreed, but not to me as I use REW to tell me things that my ears otherwise may lie to me.

... I trust my ears 100%.

I'm with Peng on this, but would word it differently:
"I trust my ears, but only when I am blind of what I am listening to"

I think most here are familiar with the McGurk effect where even after you know what the sound is you still hear it wrong because your eyes over-ride your ears! But for anyone who doesn't, here is a fun video demonstration:

My personal audio experience of this (vision over-riding hearing) happened when I got my RBH T1/R's!
These speakers are a whopping 13" W x 30-5/16" H x 19-1/2" D with 4 mid-woofers and 3 tweeters (the top half of the T2 towers):

At the time I had a pair of Canton Ventos 820.2's set up. These are 7.7'' x 11.8'' x 11'' (close to the same size as the A. Jones Pioneer BS-22 bookshelf speakers):

I was really enjoying the expansive enveloping sound-stage of the T1/R's! They fill a room like nobody's business! Dynamics to die for!

@TheWarrior was coming over for a visit and I had the comparison set up (level matched instant switching),so I blind-folded him at the door and led him to the LP to do the comparison.
He liked the Canton better, which is not such a surprise, as:
1) the Cantons have one of the best tweeters I have ever head and I knew the soft-dome ScanSpeak in the T1 was not as pristine as the "ceramic" tweeter of the Canton (RBH has since stopped using soft-domes in their best speakers),and
2) The T1's are sealed speakers, rated 50Hz-20kHz (±3dB) and really intended for use with their sub-module (or equivalent)! The Vento is ported and rated down to 32Hz (no +/- dB specified),and it puts out more bass!

Just before he removed the blind-fold to see what speakers he had been listening to I asked him if he got any sense of scale among the speakers, and he said "absolutely none!".

This totally shocked me! I had been listening to them for over a week and "knew" how the T1's effortlessly filled the room with immersive, enveloping sound!
I had to admit that that was all an artifact of vision! The T1's are visually imposing and dominate any normal room in a "take no prisoners" kind of way! It was that, and not the actual SQ that caused me to perceive such a enveloping sound stage!

So, I am astutely aware of how expectation bias can influence hearing perception!

I was 100% certain of what I was hearing and knew it would be totally obvious to anyone who took 10 seconds to listen to them! However, when confronted with someone who had listened for almost 2 hours to a wide array of music saying they perceived no difference in sense of scale between the two speakers, it was an experience with profound implications!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

"I trust my ears, but only when I am blind of what I am listening to"

I knew the soft-dome ScanSpeak in the T1 was not as pristine as the "ceramic" tweeter of the Canton...

The Vento is ported and rated down to 32Hz (no +/- dB specified),and it puts out more bass!

BTW, that's the picture of the SX-T1, not the SX-T1/R.

The difference would have been noticed if you were comparing in a much bigger room, farther distance, and much higher volume (THX Reference).

As for "blind testing", your attempt is better than nothing, but it's not double-blind.

You preferred the Canton tweeter before any testing.

Everyone "knew" the Canton had more bass because it is ported.

So it's not even single-blind because anyone could tell the Canton had more bass.

So if you just want to compare the tweeter and midrange, remove the bass from the equation by using subs. Then play THX Reference level from 20FT away and see which speaker has more dynamics.