Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Keep in mind...
Virtually all AVR brands lose $$$....
They have no choice but to survive and continue trying to decrease their FOB cost & reduce warranty costs so any internal component over-design is likely gone.
Actually I have been speed reading service manuals that are available on the internet and to my surprise I found many improvements but not too many reduction of "over-design" as such. D&M and Onkyo's tend to get lighter, but it obviously has a lot to do with technological advance, such as using SMTP where possible instead of linear power supplies. Even the class AB amps equipped AVRs now use SMTP everywhere else except for the power amp section. Transformers could be wound tighter, using cores that have higher power to weight/volume ratio, fans+heat sinks vs just heat sinks, more plastic etc.can all contribute to the lower weights. I compared the specs of the output devices and found no reduction there either. In fact iirc the 11 channel AVR-X6400H uses the same output devices as the ones in the much heavier 7 channel AVR-3805.

We already know D&M have already upgraded the DAC, multi-plexors, and preamp/vol control ICs. On top of that, someone knowledgeable and obviously have access to more service manuals than I reported that the newer unit, definitely the current models have even upgraded the tolerances of things like resistors, form the typical 5% to the thin film type that have 1% tolerance, amazingly without any fanfare. Also, Marantz has upgraded the HDAM modules in major ways (for example, 10 transistors vs 6) since the 2016 model year, probably prompted by Dr. Rich's criticism on the previous version.

I have no access to the service manuals of the newer Yamaha models but it is my reasonable assumption that they must have been upgrading too. Their weight go the opposite weight, they have become heavier than comparable D&M units since around 2013/14, though their heat sinks (non flag ship models) look flimsier. I don't think they have build in fans and their enclosures are probably more heavily built, even have an extra support at the bottom for the top models.

It is hard to believe they (at least D&M) can do it while losing money, but that's what the service manuals show.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I'll never do business with FRY's ever again.


On a side note, I went on A4L and purchased a Marantz 6013 for 799, free shipping and full 3 year warrany.

I was going to save some money on the 6012 but by the time I paid for shipping and additional warranty to cover 3 years I'd be at around the price i paid for the 6013. I wanted to spend around 800 on an upgrade which i believe is more than enough for an AVR (for myself anyway.)

Wouldn't you know it, I paid via PayPal and the transaction came straight out of my account. No issues whatsoever.

The unit has everything I'll ever need. I along with my wife love the way it looks. Internals including heat sinks look very hefty and high quality which seems like a good thing.

We'll see how it holds up. If it doesn't I've got 3 years to cover me, so no worries there.
I think you’ll love it. I bought a 6012 from A4L. Love the looks(even though the porthole is almost totally useless from my seat), and its performance has been excellent. The only nit I can pick is that it runs hot. Roughly the same temperature as the sun. So I use eco mode in auto, and turn it off if I wanna raise the roof. Interesting that @panteragstk mentioned his 809 running hot. My 808 was cool as can be at all times, and I also have a pioneer in my bedroom that runs as hot as the sun as well.

Anyway, congratulations!
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Actually I have been speed reading service manuals that are available on the internet and to my surprise I found many improvements but not too many reduction of "over-design" as such. D&M and Onkyo's tend to get lighter, but it obviously has a lot to do with technological advance, such as using SMTP where possible instead of linear power supplies. Even the class AB amps equipped AVRs now use SMTP everywhere else except for the power amp section. Transformers could be wound tighter, using cores that have higher power to weight/volume ratio, fans+heat sinks vs just heat sinks, more plastic etc.can all contribute to the lower weights. I compared the specs of the output devices and found no reduction there either. In fact iirc the 11 channel AVR-X6400H uses the same output devices as the ones in the much heavier 7 channel AVR-3805.

We already know D&M have already upgraded the DAC, multi-plexors, and preamp/vol control ICs. On top of that, someone knowledgeable and obviously have access to more service manuals than I reported that the newer unit, definitely the current models have even upgraded the tolerances of things like resistors, form the typical 5% to the thin film type that have 1% tolerance, amazingly without any fanfare. Also, Marantz has upgraded the HDAM modules in major ways (for example, 10 transistors vs 6) since the 2016 model year, probably prompted by Dr. Rich's criticism on the previous version.

I have no access to the service manuals of the newer Yamaha models but it is my reasonable assumption that they must have been upgrading too. Their weight go the opposite weight, they have become heavier than comparable D&M units since around 2013/14, though their heat sinks (non flag ship models) look flimsier. I don't think they have build in fans and their enclosures are probably more heavily built, even have an extra support at the bottom for the top models.

It is hard to believe they (at least D&M) can do it while losing money, but that's what the service manuals show.
Peng... As I posted previously the strength of Yamaha is that they control their own design & production. Having an inside Yamaha contact I can tell U that Yamaha audio products are well designed for reliability, plus their designs include a sophisticated, diagnostic SW that greatly shortens the bench service time significantly if a Yamaha product is brought in for warranty service. Also their spare parts availability is significant, typically they can supply a specific replacement module in a short time. Average delivery time is 3 days.....

A big drain on bottom-line $ margin are product returns, freight, labor.. Plus the point that when a product is returned, frequently its value is decreased due to new, better technology features that are now dated & obsolete what was used in the earlier products.

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yup...
Losing big $... Key points are frequently these brands are picked up by a 3rd party absorbing their sizable debts for a lower amount.
So...they are losing money making AVR, but they gain the money some other way via 3rd party?

Since they are losing money making AVR, what happens if they quit making AVR altogether?

Would this hurt the company as a whole even more?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I bought a 6012 from A4L. The only nit I can pick is that it runs hot. Roughly the same temperature as the sun. So I use eco mode in auto, and turn it off if I wanna raise the roof. Interesting that @panteragstk mentioned his 809 running hot. My 808 was cool as can be at all times, and I also have a pioneer in my bedroom that runs as hot as the sun as well.
I have never heard of any Onkyo staying cool. :D

There must have been something WRONG with your Onkyo 808 then. :D
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I have never heard of any Onkyo staying cool. :D

There must have been something WRONG with your Onkyo 808 then. :D
Lol. My son uses an old txnr 500 circa 2000
ish? It also runs very cool. And fwiw, that 808 was pretty much a beast, almost as much as the 805 was. Not sure why they run cool for me, but they just do.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
So...they are losing money making AVR, but they gain the money some other way via 3rd party?

Since they are losing money making AVR, what happens if they quit making AVR altogether?

Would this hurt the company as a whole even more?
Stop building AVRs increases the bottom line... Thats exactly what Harman/Kardon did.. Depends upon "How well" the brand and/or parent company is diversified. In the HK example, bye, bye AVRs and here comes smart BT speakers & headphones... These categories have a gross margin structure 2-3X that of AVRs... So gross sales will likely decrease but gross profit $ increase..
Note that for Harman International their 12V OE infotainment group accounts of >80% of their profit $... The reason Harman continued to stay in their audio brands was due to Dr.Harman's personal passion/commitment to audio....
But after his passing and subsequent sale to Samsung, they now have a different corporate agenda/strategy..

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Lol. My son uses an old txnr 500 circa 2000
ish? It also runs very cool. And fwiw, that 808 was pretty much a beast, almost as much as the 805 was. Not sure why they run cool for me, but they just do.
Is your room set to 60F degrees? :D
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Lol. My son uses an old txnr 500 circa 2000
ish? It also runs very cool. And fwiw, that 808 was pretty much a beast, almost as much as the 805 was. Not sure why they run cool for me, but they just do.
This mentioned Onkyo AVRs were actually designed by the HK design team, like HK products they would typically increase the bias current to minimize X-over distortion... Downside is the output devices are always partially ON (running Class A) increasing their heat dissipation @ idle... However now with the more stringent, mandatory Euro green standards for current/power consumption this is being decreased..

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
This mentioned Onkyo AVRs were actually designed by the HK design team, like HK products they would typically increase the bias current to minimize X-over distortion... Downside is the output devices are always partially ON (running Class A) increasing their heat dissipation @ idle... However now with the more stringent, mandatory Euro green standards for current/power consumption this is being decreased..

Just my $0.02... ;)
Interesting. I never knew about the HK connection. In fact when my wife and I demoed the 500, it was against an HK AVR. We didn’t like it! Lol
In any case, almost 20yrs later and it’s perfect. The 808 was fixed by Onkyo, out of warranty I might add, and is still working perfectly.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I think you’ll love it. I bought a 6012 from A4L. Love the looks(even though the porthole is almost totally useless from my seat), and its performance has been excellent. The only nit I can pick is that it runs hot. Roughly the same temperature as the sun. So I use eco mode in auto, and turn it off if I wanna raise the roof. Interesting that @panteragstk mentioned his 809 running hot. My 808 was cool as can be at all times, and I also have a pioneer in my bedroom that runs as hot as the sun as well.

Anyway, congratulations!
Yeah, my 809 runs hotter than my Denons do, but it's also in an office with a closet that has a server rack in it, a desk with a large monitor and a large computer tower next to the desk. As well as a 65" Panasonic plasma. I game in there too so my PS3 (yup, old school) gets pretty hot as well.

Tons of stuff generating heat in that room.

The Onkyos from the past that used Audyssey are just as good as the Denons that do. I've had zero complaints about either one other than my HDMI board dying, but Onkyo made that right so you can't go wrong. Especially if you don't care about room correction.
 
Ken32

Ken32

Full Audioholic
That's a huge discount from the launch price. I bet if you put one of the AC infinity fan on top of the unit, it may last as long as the RX-A1080.

https://www.amazon.com/AC-Infinity-MULTIFAN-Receiver-Playstation/dp/B00IJ2J2K0/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=ac+infinity+usb+fan&qid=1561985277&s=gateway&sr=8-2

If you have 3 inches or more of clearance on top, one single 120 mm one set to the lowest speed (for quietness) should do the job.

https://www.amazon.com/AC-Infinity-MULTIFAN-Receiver-Playstation/dp/B00G05A2MU/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=ac+infinity+usb+fan&qid=1561985277&s=gateway&sr=8-4

I have room for fans. So, I figured I'd try an aircom. They seem highly rated and look super sleek paired with a Marantz.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078PQJSRY/ref=psdc_11036291_t1_B01LW1Q429
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I have room for fans. So, I figured I'd try an aircom. They seem highly rated and look super sleek paired with a Marantz.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078PQJSRY/ref=psdc_11036291_t1_B01LW1Q429
Depending on your situation, I'd choose rear-vent if you can. I have the front-vent because I was in a cabinet for a while. with the fans aimed into the room, you can hear them. And you get a nice breeze. :p When I have the ability, I'm going to change to the rear.
 
Ken32

Ken32

Full Audioholic
Depending on your situation, I'd choose rear-vent if you can. I have the front-vent because I was in a cabinet for a while. with the fans aimed into the room, you can hear them. And you get a nice breeze. :p When I have the ability, I'm going to change to the rear.
In that case I'd go with the T8 Aircom.

I like the T8 and T9 models due to the fact when it sits on the AVR it acts as a dust cover. seems like a win win.
 
Kai

Kai

Full Audioholic
I recently bought the T8 for my Marantz 5011. Using a laser temp reader I read over 100f quite often. Using the T8 set at 2 fans and 85f max temp it works great. Temp never exceeds 85f and not a sound from the fan. Well worth the money to keep the avr cool and a longer life.
 

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