Replacing RZ830 Onkyo lost a customer

[PENG]

QUOTE="PENG, post: 1321073, member: 6097"]The SR6012 is just a little less powerful than the SR7012 and AVR-X4400H, so if the price is good, go for it.

Does the HDAM actually do anything in terms of sound quality? Or is it nothing more than marketing jargon? I think Fry's has the x4400h right now for 719.[/QUOTE]

Put it this way, I can't hear a difference. The upstream preamp/vol control chips and the dacs are the same anyway.

 

[Ken32]

Does the HDAM actually do anything in terms of sound quality? Or is it nothing more than marketing jargon? I think Fry's has the x4400h right now for 719.

Put it this way, I can't hear a difference. The upstream preamp/vol control chips and the dacs are the same anyway.[/QUOTE]

That's good news. I wonder why reviews say that Marantz is more for music and Denon movies....
if they are literally the same thing under different a chassis, how do people come to that conclusion? @PENG

 

[PENG]

Put it this way, I can't hear a difference. The upstream preamp/vol control chips and the dacs are the same anyway.

That's good news. I wonder why reviews say that Marantz is more for music and Denon movies....
if they are literally the same thing under different a chassis, how do people come to that conclusion? @PENG[/QUOTE]

Good question, but who are those "people", magazine reviewer, brand loyal fans and owners? People who are probably more of the objective type would not likely have told you such things mostly derived from hearsay, examples: Me, Ryan, IRV also own Marantz product (s) with and/or without HDAM. Even @AcuDefTechGuy, who regularly recommend Yamaha's now, used to own a Denon AVR-3312CI (iirc) and didn't seem to have issues using it to drive his super expensive B&W 802 D2, and I highly doubt he would not use those speakers for music..

To be clear, HDAM, aka hyper dynamic amplifier modules sure sound like some marketing jargon as you mentioned, but if you look at the hardware and design, it is actually a buffer stage, no jargon at all!!. Marantz's websites (https://www.us.marantz.com/blog/pages/posts.aspx?pid=11 ) do provide information on their claimed benefits. The latest version found on the 2015 through 2018 models is basically an unity gain buffer stage that seems to be an extra stage added to the otherwise practically identical DAC/preamp/vol control section of the corresponding (i.e. 6012/7012/X4400H). It buffers between the preamp output and power amp input, but one may logically argue that regardless of what it does, sound quality related matters have already been determined by the weakest link upstream, i.e. the DAC and preamp/vol control ICs/Op amps. In the recent Audioholics.com review on the flag ship AVR-X8500H, the reviewer has high praise of the sound quality of the Denon, even compared it to "separates", that's again subjective obviously, but note that the $3999 Denon does not have HDAM either so is the $3000 less expensive Marantz SR5012 better suited for music? I don't know, just doesn't sound logical to me..

At the end of the day, based on the lowest Amazon.com price I have seen so far, at one point it was a case of $899 for the X4400H vs the $999 7012. When those prices were on, I typically recommend the 7012 to people who seemed to care more about subjective reviews, and Denon to those who appear to care more about specs and measurements. If the price difference is greater than $300, then I find it hard to recommend the 7012 or the 6012 over the X4400H. This appears to be the case (significant street price difference) now, and that's why I think you need more details regarding the differences, in order to make a more informed decision.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Denon remote apps still sucks. AirPlay with the Denon still sucks for me. But so far no reliability issues with any of the Denon 3000 series powering any speakers. Just make sure you put some fans atop because it operates extremely hot.

 

[PENG]

The Denon remote apps still sucks. AirPlay with the Denon still sucks for me. But so far no reliability issues with any of the Denon 3000 series powering any speakers. Just make sure you put some fans atop because it operates extremely hot.

They do get quite warm, so do their Marantz counterparts. As to "extremely hot", you are I both know that was only because you (probably the only person in the real world) hooked it up to your ex B&W 802 D2?, that has impedance dips to 3-4 ohms and coincided with bad phase angles in a couple of spots below 100 Hz.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

They do get quite warm, so do their Marantz counterparts. As to "extremely hot", you are I both know that was only because you (probably the only person in the real world) hooked it up to your ex B&W 802 D2?, that has impedance dips to 3-4 ohms and coincided with bad phase angles in a couple of spots below 100 Hz.

Karaoke is probably demanding. If I don't use 2 fans, the Denon shuts down during Karaoke every time.

And when it gets hot, it's too hot for me to touch. Even the Denon AVP-A1HDCI gets too hot for my fingers if I don't put fans atop the AVP-A1HDCI.

In contrast, the Yamaha CX-A5100 doesn't even get hot without any fans in the same equipment closet as the AVP-A1HDCI. The Yamaha is barely even warm. With the same 3 fans I used atop the AVP-A1HDCI, the Yamaha is actually COOL to the touch. Not even mildly warm, but cool to the touch.

I use Eco mode. That would probably help a lot for non-Karaoke use for the Denon.

Without Eco mode, the Denon 3000 seems to get hot just being on and sitting there for a few hours not playing anything.

 

[Ken32]

Karaoke is probably demanding. If I don't use 2 fans, the Denon shuts down during Karaoke every time.

And when it gets hot, it's too hot for me to touch. Even the Denon AVP-A1HDCI gets too hot for my fingers if I don't put fans atop the AVP-A1HDCI.

In contrast, the Yamaha CX-A5100 doesn't even get hot without any fans in the same equipment closet as the AVP-A1HDCI. The Yamaha is barely even warm. With the same 3 fans I used atop the AVP-A1HDCI, the Yamaha is actually COOL to the touch. Not even mildly warm, but cool to the touch.

I use Eco mode. That would probably help a lot for non-Karaoke use for the Denon.

Without Eco mode, the Denon 3000 seems to get hot just being on and sitting there for a few hours not playing anything.

So the fans that are built in the 4400 aren’t enough? If that’s the case, that’s a shame! I’d just go with Yamahas passive design at that point!

 

[Ken32]

That's good news. I wonder why reviews say that Marantz is more for music and Denon movies....
if they are literally the same thing under different a chassis, how do people come to that conclusion? @PENG

Good question, but who are those "people", magazine reviewer, brand loyal fans and owners? People who are probably more of the objective type would not likely have told you such things mostly derived from hearsay, examples: Me, Ryan, IRV also own Marantz product (s) with and/or without HDAM. Even @AcuDefTechGuy, who regularly recommend Yamaha's now, used to own a Denon AVR-3312CI (iirc) and didn't seem to have issues using it to drive his super expensive B&W 802 D2, and I highly doubt he would not use those speakers for music..


So realistically if i bought the Denon 4400 at 719 (new) took that saved money and bought a nice power amp which would equate to less than what the sr would cost by itself (1000) vs (1299).. i should theoretically have a better setup right? better sound, and less heat rolling out of the unit. Correct?

My BW speakers also state in the manual that they are known to dip to 3ohm loads as well and I believe the Denon at 125wpc is enough for them at a decent listening level.... i was told by a rep that they’d really come to life with a 2-250wpc amp.

I know when i was big in car audio, more was definitely better. I understand speakers are subjective to sound quality per individual but running a head unit @50wpc (14rms) to aftermarket door speakers would sound decent. Throw an amp to push them closer to their limit would really make them sing and that’s something most people would notice.
It just makes sense that the same rule of thumb for home audio would apply.

 

[PENG]

So realistically if i bought the Denon 4400 at 719 (new) took that saved money and bought a nice power amp which would equate to less than what the sr would cost by itself (1000) vs (1299).. i should theoretically have a better setup right? better sound, and less heat rolling out of the unit. Correct?

Only if you don't use any of the internal amps, because then you can set Eco mode to "On". Otherwise an external fan is still highly recommended. As to better sound, many believe well designed amps used within their output power limit would sound the same or the difference, if any, would be too subtle to be concerned about.

My BW speakers also state in the manual that they are known to dip to 3ohm loads as well and I believe the Denon at 125wpc is enough for them at a decent listening level.... i was told by a rep that they’d really come to life with a 2-250wpc amp.

Reps like to say that because a) if you don't think the speakers sound good they can say it is because you don't feed them with enough juice, b) if you add an external power amp, you will most likely hear better sound quality due to expectation bias, so they know they are going to be right either way. Whether 125 WPC is enough or not, you need to use that spl calculator previously linked.

Also, read the S&V review on the SR7011 (same should appy to the SR7012 and AVR-X4400H)

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/marantz-sr7011-av-receiver-review-test-bench

Note the measurements showed much higher output into 4 ohms, with two channels driven:
Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 203.5 watts and 1% distortion at 232.2 watts.

Into 3 ohms, the output should be about the same, may be a little less, or a little more..

I know when i was big in car audio, more was definitely better. I understand speakers are subjective to sound quality per individual but running a head unit @50wpc (14rms) to aftermarket door speakers would sound decent. Throw an amp to push them closer to their limit would really make them sing and that’s something most people would notice.
It just makes sense that the same rule of thumb for home audio would apply.

Of course that is true, but as always, only to a point. For example: if you car needs 30 WPC to satisfy the speakers at the sound pressure level you need, then 50 WPC will do the job but depending on the music the speakers may not "sing" their best. Now if you feed them with 100 WPC, they do "sing" better because you would have lower the distortions to inaudible levels during music peaks of the same contents. Feed them with 300 WPC would not make any difference because the peaks never reach level high enough to demand that much juice. The simple fact is, like money, the more the better right? But if you don't spend more than a million a day on any day, the billions in your bank account will be just sitting there to look pretty, but not doing anything for you.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So the fans that are built in the 4400 aren’t enough? If that’s the case, that’s a shame! I’d just go with Yamahas passive design at that point!

I was referring to the AVR-3000 series, not 4000 series.

 

[ryanosaur]

he simple fact is, like money, the more the better right? But if you don't spend more than a million a day on any day, the billions in your bank account will be just sitting there to look pretty, but not doing anything for you.

Except, if you have that much money hanging around, it's earning more money for you.
Unlike Amps... More wattage than you need doesn't create more still.

My goal with the Amps I bought was to allow my speakers to hit reference level dynamic peaks. I rarely listen at reference level, but I wanted to make certain, when I was watching a movie, for example, that I wouldn't lose out on the payout of a climactic action sequence or what not. Headroom is nice to have... but how much you need and whether you use it are the questions. My speakers are 85dB sensitivity, so that's the path I chose.

Regarding heat and AVRs... it's not that bad for the most part. I put an AC Infinity Aircom T- unit on top... keeps things cool. In general, as long as you have the recommended 6-8" all around, you don't close it in a cabinet or cubby, you are probably fine. Extra cooling helps ensure better longevity and performance, IMO. YMMV

 

[lovinthehd]

Which unit did you like paired with BW? I'm really a big fan of their speakers. I really like the Yamaha units, at the same time, as I've stated above, fry's has a new Denon x4400h for 719 which seems like a bargain. I just want a unit to bring these towers to life. Mostly musically but movies also... I have had the same denon i sent back to keep my old Onkyo 820. However; I compared them in direct mode only (like an idiot) rather than calibrating their room acoustics and then testing the speaker sound. Probably a mistake on my end. The denon could have very well sounded better fully calibrated but i wouldn't know...

There's a reason Lexus is reliable (Toyota).

Can you explain this "bring to life" thing? Just what does that? That mean you can turn it up louder?

 

[Ken32]

I was referring to the AVR-3000 series, not 4000 series.

Ah! ok, that makes sense! I was thinking for some reason the 4000 series and up! To tell you the truth, I had no idea the 4000 series and up had fans built in until i watched a review.

 

[Ken32]

Can you explain this "bring to life" thing? Just what does that? That mean you can turn it up louder?

Bring out better clarity and details. More punch.

 

[lovinthehd]

Bring out better clarity and details.

But what does this particularly in an amp? That's more the function of the speakers than the amp.....unless you just like reading flowery review type stuff about how an amp magically changed soundstage, clarity and details and all that other type of subjective description nonsense. It's an electrical relationship that has some fuzzy edges IMO, but is fairly straight forward and for a well designed amp simply a matter of capability differences IME. I have several avrs and amps in the house, not once have I had the experience where one particular unit changed the sound of the speakers in an immediately noticeable fashion, like bringing something dead to life

 

[Ken32]

But what does this particularly in an amp? That's more the function of the speakers than the amp.....unless you just like reading flowery review type stuff about how an amp magically changed soundstage, clarity and details and all that other type of subjective description nonsense. It's an electrical relationship that has some fuzzy edges IMO, but is fairly straight forward and for a well designed amp simply a matter of capability differences IME. I have several avrs and amps in the house, not once have I had the experience where one particular unit changed the sound of the speakers in an immediately noticeable fashion, like bringing something dead to life

Surely an 11 year old onkyo at 90wpc would sound less detailed than a modern day unit?

I had to resort back to it after RZ troubles. I'm using a 12 dollar bluetooth adapter to stream music. I'd assume lower resolution as compared to say networked FLAC OR APPLE LOSSLESS. I'm missing details somewhere. It doesn't sound as clear as I've once heard before. I figured with better features and processing power, a newer AVR can help. especially with EQ adjustments which this current unit lacks....

 

[lovinthehd]

Surely an 11 year old onkyo at 90wpc would sound less detailed than a modern day unit?

I had to resort back to it after RZ troubles. I'm using a 12 dollar bluetooth adapter to stream music. I'd assume lower resolution as compared to say networked FLAC OR APPLE LOSSLESS. I'm missing details somewhere. It doesn't sound as clear as I've once heard before. I figured with better features and processing power, a newer AVR can help. especially with EQ adjustments which this current unit lacks....

I still don't understand your logic. Amps have been mature for a while. Yes, your bluetooth would be likely be a lower resolution path depending on which version you're using but judging everything the unit can do based on that source? Maybe your old unit has issues, don't know....maybe its just your expectation bias at work, don't know.

 

[Ken32]

I still don't understand your logic. Amps have been mature for a while. Yes, your bluetooth would be likely be a lower resolution path depending on which version you're using but judging everything the unit can do based on that source? Maybe your old unit has issues, don't know....maybe its just your expectation bias at work, don't know.

My mid-range and upper frequency details are lacking. I know it's not my speakers. I've heard the speakers on several units including a marantz 6012 and they sounded very detailed and full bodied. Perhaps the xt32 ran or some sort of eq dialed in? I don't know. I only know what my ears heard. My current unit now lacks EQ in general. I can't adjust MIDS at all. mainly lower frequencies which were never the problem to begin with.

My old unit definitely has issues. It's OLD! lol. You literally cannot do anything with it. Which is why i upgraded in the first place. I didn't expect the RZ series to flop on me. The blue-tooth is modern 4.0 plugin through the front aux port. That's sketchy enough in itself.

When i said i want something to bring these speakers to life i meant Power, Equalization, customizing adjustments and tweaking settings to a preferred listening experience. Only, I want a UNIT that has the better capabilities.... i.e Airplay or network streaming for higher resolution music. Better DAC's than what i currently have. Better room acoustic calibration system, whether it be YPAO or AUD XT32. Either way, compared to what I'm working with, a modern AVR would have to have much better results than my current AVR in terms of performance and SQ..... If DAC's are one of the main controlling factors in SQ (unless I'm thinking of them in the wrong way) then it should be a nice jump in terms of SQ and be satisfying to my ears.

 

[lovinthehd]

My mid-range and upper frequency details are lacking. I know it's not my speakers. I've heard the speakers on several units including a marantz 6012 and they sounded very detailed and full bodied. Perhaps the xt32 ran or some sort of eq dialed in? I don't know. I only know what my ears heard. My current unit now lacks EQ in general. I can't adjust MIDS at all. mainly lower frequencies which were never the problem to begin with.

My old unit definitely has issues. It's OLD! lol. You literally cannot do anything with it. Which is why i upgraded in the first place. I didn't expect the RZ series to flop on me. The blue-tooth is modern 4.0 plugin through the front aux port. That's sketchy enough in itself.

When i said i want something to bring these speakers to life i meant Power, Equalization, customizing adjustments and tweaking settings to a preferred listening experience. Only, I want a UNIT that has the better capabilities.... i.e Airplay or network streaming for higher resolution music. Better DAC's than what i currently have. Better room acoustic calibration system, whether it be YPAO or AUD XT32. Either way, compared to what I'm working with, a modern AVR would have to have much better results than my current AVR in terms of performance and SQ..... If DAC's are one of the main controlling factors in SQ (unless I'm thinking of them in the wrong way) then it should be a nice jump in terms of SQ and be satisfying to my ears.

Sonic memory can be unreliable IME. I take it the Marantz was not in your room with your speakers since you don't know how it was setup? Sure it could make a difference had they applied some dsp/eq or not. Many don't even want eq these days but if you do consider Yamahas tend to have parametric eq whereas the Denon merely graphic eq; YPAO may or may not work as well as XT32 by some accounts. Maybe you should be looking at units with ARC or Dirac instead? Hard to know what flavor you'll like best.

If anything the older Onkyos were more respected than the new ones, what is your old Onkyo model number?

 

[Ken32]

Sonic memory can be unreliable IME. I take it the Marantz was not in your room with your speakers since you don't know how it was setup? Sure it could make a difference had they applied some dsp/eq or not. Many don't even want eq these days but if you do consider Yamahas tend to have parametric eq whereas the Denon merely graphic eq; YPAO may or may not work as well as XT32 by some accounts. Maybe you should be looking at units with ARC or Dirac instead? Hard to know what flavor you'll like best.

If anything the older Onkyos were more respected than the new ones, what is your old Onkyo model number?

HTR-980