Budget Sub question - JBL 550P vs Polh HTS 12

[OaktownPete]

need a new sub as my Energy S10 (or whatever it's called - had it a decade) finally died a horrible death.

room is ~ 1800 cuft. sub goes just off right front corner (that's not changing) with a always-open doorway in the right/front corner, and a doorway-sized opening to kitchen in right rear corner.

older Denon 2113 receiver running my trusty Cambridge S30-based 3.0/3.1 system for my still very good 1080p Toshiba Regza TV. power/volume is not an issue. but budget IS a concern. I got the Energy back in the day for 200. I was looking at the current subs in that range and none checked all the boxes...until MAYBE now...

finally, WAF is a DEFINITE factor - not so much for size/form as for boominess. when I had the energy sub, wife would turn it down, unless we were watching movies together...even though the Energy was relatively clean. so MOST of the cheap subs would be out - lotta boom, no definition. this is where the 550P comes in - a tight sealed sub that, while it only hits to 27 hz (which is not a BAD thing in her ears), is supposed to be very clean. thinking she might not object to it, and it MIGHT provide enough low end to make me happy (really missing my bass in both movies and music). it is on sale for 189 including shipping.

my other choice is the polk HTS 12 @ 349 including shipping. it's rated to 22 hz, but on "that other AV site" the reviewer said he got solid, FLAT output to 20 Hz (albeit with a good automated EQ). and it is supposed to be very clean for a ported budget sub.

then there is reliability. dunno WHICH one is better here, but I don't want to buy a sub that dies in a year.

and finally, at 189 the JBL will allow me to get a decent soundbar/cheap-sub combo for the bedroom sooner rather than later. (but at what cost to the den - our main listening room? )

the question IS... 550P @ 189 vs HTS12 @ 349?

if the HTS 12 is THAT much better, W/O pissing off the Wifey, I'll wait on the soundbar thingy combo. advice please...

 

[ryanosaur]

Depending on your budget, there are better subs... but...

...With LF Soundwaves... you are seriously at the mercy of room acoustics, and placement can make a huge difference. I have a corner that becomes an absolute nightmare if I put anything near it... my Standmounts trigger horrible room modes down low... and those only go to ~34Hz: I had to keep them roughly 30" from the corners to avoid that! My Sub in that corner was a disgusting mess. Point is, that might be a horrible location, and even the best, tightest sound can be destroyed by such placement.

Consider, that your room is ~1800'3, but you also mentioned you have an "always open door" to another area, and the kitchen... LF Soundwaves will go wherever they want, and that includes those rooms. You might think you only have 1800'3, but the soundwaves see more!

Sorry, no recommendations for you, other than to consider that your room is in control of your bass, more so than the Lady is. If her ears are sensitive, she is hearing the bad placement and quite possibly distortion in the sub itself. I guarantee that this scenario is likely to repeat itself, regardless of the sub you buy, if you ignore the fundamental acoustics at work.

I hope we can help steer you in a positive direction!

 

[KirkJBL590]

He's right, you do need to consider how low your room can go compared to how low the sub can go. In my room, bass starts rolling off at around 30hz. So the JBL would be fine for me. Im more of a sceptic and realist pertaining to bass and room modes. Guys will show graphs in REW of their rooms producing bass at 16hz with their two $5000 dollar SVS subs when in all reality, they are not filling the room that low. I don't care what they say and what REW shows, it takes a huge room and hours along with days of testing at different locations in order to play that low and IF you get lucky and find the right position and location for one or two subs that have that capability. If they find it great but you'll notice peaks and nulls at other frequencies between 30-80hz that need to be dealt with and flattened out.

A sub that plays down to 25hz in my opinion is all you'll ever need in most situations. Most music and movies are centered between 20-60hz anyways peaking at around 35hz. I would get the JBL. I have two Cerwin Vega Pro Audio subs that only dig down to 26hz. However, like i said earlier, my room starts rolling off below 30hz. 28hz is my -6db point. Below that, i dont feel or hear anything but noise. So i would be wasting my money on anything lower than that. I have two CVE-18S subs. Hope this helps....

 

[OaktownPete]

thx for the advice.

I always keep the front right corner door that's "behind the sub" (as I look at it from the couch) OPEN. the few times I've closed it to create an actual corner (with the sub about 2 feet from the corner, along the wall) it got REAL boomy and uneven.

 

[KirkJBL590]

thx for the advice.

I always keep the front right corner door that's "behind the sub" (as I look at it from the couch) OPEN. the few times I've closed it to create an actual corner (with the sub about 2 feet from the corner, along the wall) it got REAL boomy and uneven.

I use parametric EQ with a Q of 2.4 at a minus 5db centered at 50hz in my room. Like you, i have excessive bass between 40-60hz. Completely fixed the problem for me. You can use subtractive eq to tame Bass and it works very well. Don't let an audiophile purist tell you any different. They're full of BS.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

He's right, you do need to consider how low your room can go compared to how low the sub can go. In my room, bass starts rolling off at around 30hz. So the JBL would be fine for me. Im more of a sceptic and realist pertaining to bass and room modes. Guys will show graphs in REW of their rooms producing bass at 16hz with their two $5000 dollar SVS subs when in all reality, they are not filling the room that low. I don't care what they say and what REW shows, it takes a huge room and hours along with days of testing at different locations in order to play that low and IF you get lucky and find the right position and location for one or two subs that have that capability. If they find it great but you'll notice peaks and nulls at other frequencies between 30-80hz that need to be dealt with and flattened out.

A sub that plays down to 25hz in my opinion is all you'll ever need in most situations. Most music and movies are centered between 20-60hz anyways peaking at around 35hz. I would get the JBL. I have two Cerwin Vega Pro Audio subs that only dig down to 26hz. However, like i said earlier, my room starts rolling off below 30hz. 28hz is my -6db point. Below that, i dont feel or hear anything but noise. So i would be wasting my money on anything lower than that. I have two CVE-18S subs. Hope this helps....

Just curious, do you have any experience with said subs, or REW?

 

[ryanosaur]

The most simple way to find a good position for the sub is to do the crawl. It is a crude technique, but you are using the acoustics of the room to help you find a clean location.
I don’t believe in the dogma that subs belong on the front wall or in a corner. The front wall can work, but as I described above, corner loading isn’t always that great of a placement strategy.
Sometimes, nearfield placement can overcome many problems, too. If you can fit it behind the couch, for example, or hide it under an end table beside the couch... this is a strategy that has worked for many WAF situations...
Regardless, you have to keep your mind open and be willing to look for the solution.
Depending on your budget, consider a better sub. Look at SVS PB 1000, or Hsu VTF 1 or VTF 2 (the 2 is 539 +shipping, but is a known great performer on a budget!). These subs will give you significantly better performance for not too much more money. It’s your ducats, your your home, though.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I use parametric EQ with a Q of 2.4 at a minus 5db centered at 50hz in my room. Like you, i have excessive bass between 40-60hz. Completely fixed the problem for me. You can use subtractive eq to tame Bass and it works very well. Don't let an audiophile purist tell you any different. They're full of BS.

Agreed. Dealing with peaks is infinitely easier than dealing with nulls. Keep in mind that can also cost you headroom. Especially if the in room FR is messy.

 

[KirkJBL590]

Not with my system. I have both of my subs hooked up to a DBX 120A Subharmonic Synth. I have so much bass along with subharmonics available, my room shakes at a moderate level. The sensitivity of the Cerwin Vegas are through the roof.

http://www.cerwinvega.com/pro-audio/powered-speaker-system/active-subwoofer/cve-18s.html

 

[lovinthehd]

. Don't let an audiophile purist tell you any different. They're full of BS.

Have you seen such here on audioholics?

 

[KirkJBL590]

Just curious, do you have any experience with said subs, or REW?

Not with the ops subs no. I've played around with REW. Its too time consuming for me.

 

[lovinthehd]

Back to the wife. Sounds like she doesn't like bass much....a friend of mine's wife is like that. You may end up turning off/lowering for her regardless of sub or how your room reacts with a particular sub. The JBL subs have had some amp issues in the past but don't think the 550p has had the problems reported some other models had from what I've seen. I'd personally go dual 550p for that price vs the one Polk (but does sound like Polk is picking up their game from Mark's informal review); seems they're both capable down low (similar f3s of 28hz for the Polk, 27hz for the JBL, the 22hz is an f10 for the Polk) but would really need measurements on both to compare them more accurately as to distortion levels/spl capabilities etc. Polk sub amp issues are out there, too but probably no way to tell with a newer model in any case. Somewhat the nature of the low price sub game, corners get cut.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Not with my system. I have both of my subs hooked up to a DBX 120A Subharmonic Synth. I have so much bass along with subharmonics available, my room shakes at a moderate level. The sensitivity of the Cerwin Vegas are through the roof.

http://www.cerwinvega.com/pro-audio/powered-speaker-system/active-subwoofer/cve-18s.html

I noticed the high sensitivity. Curious though, if the FR is 28hz(their site) what’s the point of the synth?

 

[snakeeyes]

The most simple way to find a good position for the sub is to do the crawl. It is a crude technique, but you are using the acoustics of the room to help you find a clean location.
I don’t believe in the dogma that subs belong on the front wall or in a corner. The front wall can work, but as I described above, corner loading isn’t always that great of a placement strategy.
Sometimes, nearfield placement can overcome many problems, too. If you can fit it behind the couch, for example, or hide it under an end table beside the couch... this is a strategy that has worked for many WAF situations...
Regardless, you have to keep your mind open and be willing to look for the solution.
Depending on your budget, consider a better sub. Look at SVS PB 1000, or Hsu VTF 1 or VTF 2 (the 2 is 539 +shipping, but is a known great performer on a budget!). These subs will give you significantly better performance for not too much more money. It’s your ducats, your your home, though.

I’m skeptical about the 10in woofers. That’s not going to do well in most living rooms or theater rooms, even one as small as he is describing. It’s only a gateway drug to real subs... LOL . I’m going to recommend 12in subs such as the HSU VTF2 MK5 you mentioned

 

[ryanosaur]

I’m skeptical about the 10in woofers. That’s not going to do well in most living rooms or theater rooms, even one as small as he is describing. It’s only a gateway drug to real subs... LOL . I’m going to recommend 12in subs such as the HSU VTF2 MK5 you mentioned

Totally agree... just want to also respect OPs stated price point while offering an option that may perform better. Vtf2... totally!

 

[KirkJBL590]

I noticed the high sensitivity. Curious though, if the FR is 28hz(their site) what’s the point of the synth?

#16
If you study subharmonics, this device can achieve an octave lower as long as it's in the program material. Most music and movies have loads of subharmonics. The CV frequency range is capable down to the -10 db point of 26hz. The Synth has two separate bands. One for frequencies between 24-36hz. One for 36-56hz. Has a level control, subharmonic control, LF boost to blend with the mid-bass and bypass. Adjusted correctly and with care, you can fill the room with very deep sounding full bass that surrounds you for movies and dial in punch for music. Its a toy. I love it and its fun to use. I use it mostly for Home theater. For music, if an older recording lacks a good kick drum, you can play around with it and get it back. Can't get it anymore, they phased it out. However, you can get it installed in many of the DriveRacks. Its been said that Movie complexes have these installed in their equipment.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

#16
If you study subharmonics, this device can achieve an octave lower as long as it's in the program material. Most music and movies have loads of subharmonics. The CV is capable at the -10 db point to 26hz. The Synth has two separate bands. One for frequencies between 24-36hz. One for 36-56hz. Has a level control, subharmonic control, LF boost to blend with the mid-bass and bypass. Adjusted correctly and with care, you can fill the room with very deep sounding full bass that surrounds you for movies and dial in punch for music. Its a toy. I love it and its fun to use. I use it mostly for Home theater. For music, if an older recording lacks a good kick drum, you can play around with it and get it back. Can't get it anymore, they phased it out. However, you can get it installed in many of the DriveRacks. Its been said that Movie complexes have these installed in their equipment.

Therein lies my confusion. -10db imo is DOA. So sending frequencies an octave below where the subs capabilities are does what? I do know about Subharmonic fwiw.

I do believe such a device would be a lot of fun with older music that was mixed a little “light” on bass, or if you were mixing some dubstep in the studio etc.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

need a new sub as my Energy S10 (or whatever it's called - had it a decade) finally died a horrible death.

room is ~ 1800 cuft. sub goes just off right front corner (that's not changing) with a always-open doorway in the right/front corner, and a doorway-sized opening to kitchen in right rear corner.

older Denon 2113 receiver running my trusty Cambridge S30-based 3.0/3.1 system for my still very good 1080p Toshiba Regza TV. power/volume is not an issue. but budget IS a concern. I got the Energy back in the day for 200. I was looking at the current subs in that range and none checked all the boxes...until MAYBE now...

finally, WAF is a DEFINITE factor - not so much for size/form as for boominess. when I had the energy sub, wife would turn it down, unless we were watching movies together...even though the Energy was relatively clean. so MOST of the cheap subs would be out - lotta boom, no definition. this is where the 550P comes in - a tight sealed sub that, while it only hits to 27 hz (which is not a BAD thing in her ears), is supposed to be very clean. thinking she might not object to it, and it MIGHT provide enough low end to make me happy (really missing my bass in both movies and music). it is on sale for 189 including shipping.

my other choice is the polk HTS 12 @ 349 including shipping. it's rated to 22 hz, but on "that other AV site" the reviewer said he got solid, FLAT output to 20 Hz (albeit with a good automated EQ). and it is supposed to be very clean for a ported budget sub.

then there is reliability. dunno WHICH one is better here, but I don't want to buy a sub that dies in a year.

and finally, at 189 the JBL will allow me to get a decent soundbar/cheap-sub combo for the bedroom sooner rather than later. (but at what cost to the den - our main listening room? )

the question IS... 550P @ 189 vs HTS12 @ 349?

if the HTS 12 is THAT much better, W/O pissing off the Wifey, I'll wait on the soundbar thingy combo. advice please...

IMO, either one would be an upgrade. Energy, not being known for subwoofers, probably made a little fart box to accompany their speakers. WhT happens with many “speaker” manufacturers is that their subs seem like an afterthought. I believe the Polk and JBL both are more linear, and can dig deeper than the energy. Being budget AND waf/space constrained, I’d go with @lovinthehd s advice and use 2 jbl’s. Many good reports of that little guy. You’ll benefit from smoother bass from two subs, PLUS their better design/components will keep them more linear. If two is out, I’d save the money and just get one, as these two subs at more similar than different.

Hopefully the better built/designed subs will appease the wife’s sensitivity AND allow you to keep your bass. “Better bass is deceiving in that you can have a lot more of it before becoming obnoxious. Boomy one note subwoofers are bad in this regard. It’s also why high quality subs cost more, but just because they’re louder.

 

[lovinthehd]

IMO, either one would be an upgrade. Energy, not being known for subwoofers, probably made a little fart box to accompany their speakers. WhT happens with many “speaker” manufacturers is that their subs seem like an afterthought. I believe the Polk and JBL both are more linear, and can dig deeper than the energy. Being budget AND waf/space constrained, I’d go with @lovinthehd s advice and use 2 jbl’s. Many good reports of that little guy. You’ll benefit from smoother bass from two subs, PLUS their better design/components will keep them more linear. If two is out, I’d save the money and just get one, as these two subs at more similar than different.

Hopefully the better built/designed subs will appease the wife’s sensitivity AND allow you to keep your bass. “Better bass is deceiving in that you can have a lot more of it before becoming obnoxious. Boomy one note subwoofers are bad in this regard. It’s also why high quality subs cost more, but just because they’re louder.

My only experience was with the very basic Energy ESW-8 (came with the Take set), but never expected much from a cheap 8" sub (altho it still lives!). I did read generally good things about their S-10.3 fwiw. Like you said, a speaker company more doing subs as matching accessories rather than serious subs for the most part. There are some really good prices on the Studio 5 series speakers going on now, as well as this sub from that series.

 

[ryanosaur]

Better bass is deceiving in that you can have a lot more of it before becoming obnoxious.

+, like, 10,000,000 to this.
Distortion, in any form, is often confused as "loud." For me, my old toy HTIB Sub made sh!t rattle... not because it was POWERFUL, but because it was distorted. Once the distortion was eliminated (for me, it was the AVR processing the signal), the sub actually performed much better, and at higher gain than I could employ previously.