Think I could use help running my Crown XLS 1502's correctly

GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
As this discussion will eventually end up talking about ground lift switches, I post this link for people to read ahead. Sure, it's from Wikipedia -- that much maligned repository of the interesting and arcane. But the content is correct and, notably, talks about things like pro gear and balanced cables...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_lift

The link to the article at the end (how not to kill a performer) is thought provoking and has a few comical moments.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
True, but a miswired GFCI is nothing more than an expensive socket. And they can be, electrically speaking, noisy. That's why I'd rather have my audio equipment wired correctly and passing through a fused surge protector instead of through a GFCI.

(How many people have gone around their homes with a plug-in circuit checker? Not many, I suspect. When I went around my home, I found six miswired sockets and two GFCIs that were wired in series (which isn't dangerous but is a pure waste of money and an unnecessary complexity which offers no additional protection whatsoever).)

The other issue is the grounded-to-double insulated problem (via strapping or even an unbalanced cable). If the chassis/case for a double insulated device is energized, it may not loop back to ground. Why? Because it is electrically isolated from the "mains", to use a concise and appropriate British term.

It WILL try to find the best ground, if somebody touches it... in which case they'd be part of a ground loop that, until that exact moment in time, didn't exist. (A ground loop occurs when electrons find ground through an alternate path. It is in no way restricted to instances where this creates noise, although this is how most audio folks use it.)

Now this doesn't happen frequently because things are engineered almost to the point of being idiot proof... unless the idiot in question is holding onto a hot water radiator with one hand and touching poorly configured gear with another. But accidents do happen... not necessarily through idiocy but through a series of relatively innocuous events that end in tragedy. A great example comes to mind, but that's another story for another day...
I know what a ground loop is- if I didn't, I probably wouldn't have used 'equipotential' in my comments.

WRT badly wired- the electrician who wired the house with the Krell- lazy, opportunistic and completely resistant to learning about what's needed for modern AV equipment.

UL is for safety, NEC is for making lots of rules and charging money for them, but most of it is worthwhile.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Sure. But this thread also involves mixing pro and consumer gear, which are often configured differently.

As an aside, I wish the industry would adopt a name other than "pro". It suggests a qualitative difference, which is wrong. The difference is in the application, with pro gear designed for a set of specific uses.

Much in the same way that a Checker taxi isn't necessarily better than a car somebody can buy from a dealer. A Checker was a very robust cab, but wouldn't have passed even the most basic of noise, vibration, harshness tests... not to mention acceleration, fuel economy etc... of commercially available passenger cars.
Pro is fine for that designation because 'Pro Audio' is real category and has been, for a long time. Not a fan of 'pro-sumer', though. It works, but it's kind of lame.

And in much of Europe, they use Mercedes Benz for cabs.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Bonding can give electrons a place to go, other than through an amp circuit, as it follows a ground loop. There are times, however, when it can create a ground loop. It all depends ton the configuration of the gear.

The best way to avoid ground loops is to place everything on the same power circuit. I see this as one of the reasons to upgrade to a 20A line, not to prevent current sagging from a 15A line when the gear draws less than 13A current (2A buffer to avoid tripping circuits during in rush if everything is being powered up at the same time).
Bonding uses the chassis, which is supposed to be separate from the actual circuits, at least, in balanced/LowZ stuff. The fact that some pieces are balanced/LowZ is one reason to not use it in a consumer AV system unless it's connected properly and the impedance & levels are matched and it's not cobbled together.

Another way to avoid large inrush is to use a some kind of switched outlets, to allow some equipment to power up immediately, then turn on the rest after a specified waiting period.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Another way to avoid large inrush is to use a some kind of switched outlets, to allow some equipment to power up immediately, then turn on the rest after a specified waiting period.
Very true. Some switched power bars/surge protectors have this function. Some for shop tools, others for home entertainment systems.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
As this discussion will eventually end up talking about ground lift switches, I post this link for people to read ahead. Sure, it's from Wikipedia -- that much maligned repository of the interesting and arcane. But the content is correct and, notably, talks about things like pro gear and balanced cables...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_lift

The link to the article at the end (how not to kill a performer) is thought provoking and has a few comical moments.
Keef was knocked out when he touched the mic and his guitar at the same time. While some may think this explains a few things, I'm not sure. Hubert Sumlin, Howlin' Wolf's guitar player, dropped like a sack of flour at the Pabst Theater in MKE during the Les Paul Birthday celebration- he did the same thing as Keef, but the difference- Hubert had a pacemaker. I let a friend use one of my guitar amps, built in the late-'50s, at a local club before I replaced the power cord with a grounded one & removed the 'death cap' on the polarity switch. He stepped up to the mic and touched it with his lip- his head snapped back and he reached behind him to reverse the switch's position, so he could continue.

Death Cap For Cutie?

https://robrobinette.com/Death_Cap_and_Ground_Switch.htm
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Keef was knocked out when he touched the mic and his guitar at the same time. While some may think this explains a few things, I'm not sure. Hubert Sumlin, Howlin' Wolf's guitar player, dropped like a sack of flour at the Pabst Theater in MKE during the Les Paul Birthday celebration- he did the same thing as Keef, but the difference- Hubert had a pacemaker. I let a friend use one of my guitar amps, built in the late-'50s, at a local club before I replaced the power cord with a grounded one & removed the 'death cap' on the polarity switch. He stepped up to the mic and touched it with his lip- his head snapped back and he reached behind him to reverse the switch's position, so he could continue.

Death Cap For Cutie?

https://robrobinette.com/Death_Cap_and_Ground_Switch.htm
I love it... Keef is such a character. He's a person I'd love to meet.
 
S

screaminglemon

Audiophyte
Ok guys here's the skinny I think the issue was on the right side of the wall.

When I took the cord off from the panamax power thing which I only use to plug sh@$!t that isn't amps or reciever into them and plugged both on the plug in to the far left.

Then plugged the AVR into the 20 amp circuit dedicated for the amps. Boom! No more noise period. I can stick my ear up to the speakers with the Crowns gains maxed out all day long and I can't hear diddley squat
...
Hi Danzilla31, I'm glad you found a solution to your problems but I can't figure out what you did to fix it. Could you please explain?
I am having a very similar issue with my setup. Ground-loop buzz from a Crown XLS 1502 connected via RCA to a Denon X4500H. Buzz gets better/worse by adjusting the gain attenuation on the Crown. Does not change with volume knob on the Denon. Disconnect the RCA and zero buzz. Temporarily use cheater plug on the Crown and no buzz. The Denon, Crown, Plasma TV, and 2 small subs are all on the same power strip.
Any ideas? If I can't find a simple solution, would it be better to attack the issue at the Crowns power side with a ground-loop isolation thing or attack the RCAs with some sorta box that has a ground lift?
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
Hi Danzilla31, I'm glad you found a solution to your problems but I can't figure out what you did to fix it. Could you please explain?
I am having a very similar issue with my setup. Ground-loop buzz from a Crown XLS 1502 connected via RCA to a Denon X4500H. Buzz gets better/worse by adjusting the gain attenuation on the Crown. Does not change with volume knob on the Denon. Disconnect the RCA and zero buzz. Temporarily use cheater plug on the Crown and no buzz. The Denon, Crown, Plasma TV, and 2 small subs are all on the same power strip.
Any ideas? If I can't find a simple solution, would it be better to attack the issue at the Crowns power side with a ground-loop isolation thing or attack the RCAs with some sorta box that has a ground lift?
Did you try a cheater plug and keep it?
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Hi Danzilla31, I'm glad you found a solution to your problems but I can't figure out what you did to fix it. Could you please explain?
I am having a very similar issue with my setup. Ground-loop buzz from a Crown XLS 1502 connected via RCA to a Denon X4500H. Buzz gets better/worse by adjusting the gain attenuation on the Crown. Does not change with volume knob on the Denon. Disconnect the RCA and zero buzz. Temporarily use cheater plug on the Crown and no buzz. The Denon, Crown, Plasma TV, and 2 small subs are all on the same power strip.
Any ideas? If I can't find a simple solution, would it be better to attack the issue at the Crowns power side with a ground-loop isolation thing or attack the RCAs with some sorta box that has a ground lift?
For me I isolated the biggest part of it to the cable when I disconnected it I had no issues with the ground loop I also separated everything amp onto one of my dedicated lines I'd put in. I took the crowns out for now bought a new house so going to be moving my gear over to there. No sense messing with it now

I think I'd have had to hit the crowns with a ground loop isolation to really solve it long term cheater plugs worked right off the bat
But its a very bad idea to rely on something like that long term on amps like that

Well see what they do when I move over to the new house
 
A

anirudh19oct

Audiophyte

I am getting my XLS 2502 delivered in a week. Hope everything goes well. Very very curious to try out a pro amp in an audiophile signal chain!
 
S

screaminglemon

Audiophyte
Did you try a cheater plug and keep it?
I only used the cheater plug temporarily as a diagnosis tool. I am not comfortable leaving it in as a permanent solution. I would like to try the HumX from EBTech but it seems pricey for what it is.
 
S

screaminglemon

Audiophyte
I'm sorry, I must be dense cause it's still not very clear to me.
For me I isolated the biggest part of it to the cable when I disconnected it I had no issues with the ground loop
Am I correct in reading that this says you removed the RCA interconnects and the ground-loop problem is gone? Exactly what happens to me, but that's not a solution.
I also separated everything amp onto one of my dedicated lines I'd put in. ...
Is this saying you put the crown amp on a completely different circuit from the rest of your gear? And that fixed it? Interesting, I will fool around with different combinations of power circuits. It may be difficult for me as I'm in an old building and most of my wall plugs have no equipment ground. Really only one grounded plug near my HT.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I'm sorry, I must be dense cause it's still not very clear to me.

Am I correct in reading that this says you removed the RCA interconnects and the ground-loop problem is gone? Exactly what happens to me, but that's not a solution.

Is this saying you put the crown amp on a completely different circuit from the rest of your gear? And that fixed it? Interesting, I will fool around with different combinations of power circuits. It may be difficult for me as I'm in an old building and most of my wall plugs have no equipment ground. Really only one grounded plug near my HT.
No I apologize I was trying to say my cable TV that connection coming from the wall was causing the ground loop I just moved things around to clean it up a bit.

Like you I've been thinking of a way to isolate the crowns from the loop but since I'll be moving soon I think I'll just see how they do at the new place.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
No I apologize I was trying to say my cable TV that connection coming from the wall was causing the ground loop I just moved things around to clean it up a bit.

Like you I've been thinking of a way to isolate the crowns from the loop but since I'll be moving soon I think I'll just see how they do at the new place.
This isn't a ground loop in the usual sense- it's likely that you would be able to measure voltage between the coax and the first piece of equipment it hits and in fact, I recommend that you measure this so you can call the cable provider and tell them to fix your feed. Either this has leakage on the center conductor or bad grounding on the shield, but in either case, it's their responsibility to find a fix. If the cable feed isn't grounded properly, it's a code violation.

https://www.mikeholt.com/instructor2/img/product/pdf/11LED-967-sample.pdf

https://www.ecmag.com/section/miscellaneous/communications-systems-grounding-rules
 

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