Let's talk modems & routers

[Irvrobinson]

2.4GHz is ancient? If it works better than 5 Gig, it's still useful. What visible difference is likely from a 50Mbps ISP?

His current router only supports 802.11g, not 802.11n, so he's probably getting 10Mbps on any given WiFi connection most of the time.

 

[Irvrobinson]

How's that phrase go… If it ain't broke, don't fix it..

There's broke and then there's obsolescence. But if you're happy with the performance you're getting and you're (surprisingly) a technophobe, then stay with what you have and don't stress about needless things. You're in good company; though my wife started her career in system software development, she has turned into a technophobe too.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Huh. Wonder why? I've never tried it personally. I flash every tm-ac1900 that comes through my house with Advanced Tomato. I do have to downgrade the bootloader in the process though.

https://github.com/RMerl/asuswrt-merlin/wiki/Supported-Devices
https://www.snbforums.com/threads/the-tm-ac1900-is-not-supported.48056/

 

[highfigh]

His current router only supports 802.11g, not 802.11n, so he's probably getting 10Mbps on any given WiFi connection most of the time.

I thought you were referring to a visible difference between 2.4GHz and 5GHz, not the old router.

I think about the networking class I took in 2006- 802.11b/g were current, 802.11n was in the works and no firm date for rollout was stated. People were still OK with a 1Mbps network connection and hard drives for a PC were about 2GB. Hell, we covered token ring networks!

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

So far, it looks like the Motorola MB7621 modem ($78) as Irv suggested, plus one of these WiFi dual band routers:

Google Router $99​

​

I'd still recommend the Arris over the moto, and sorry to burst your bubble, but a single google wifi unit won't do in the 2700sqft house. You'd need at least 2, preferably 3. These are on occasional sale for $220 for 3 pack.

 

[Trell]

His current router only supports 802.11g, not 802.11n, so he's probably getting 10Mbps on any given WiFi connection most of the time.

There is one long time member that, apparently, is still using a hub instead of a switch on his LAN.

 

[Irvrobinson]

​

I'd still recommend the Arris over the moto, and sorry to burst your bubble, but a single google wifi unit won't do in the 2700sqft house. You'd need at least 2, preferably 3. These are on occasional sale for $220 for 3 pack.

The Motorola, Swerd, was just an example. I did have a Motorola cable modem in my work apartment for five years, and it worked flawlessly for about $60. I use an Arris modem now, because IMO they seemed to have the best design among products with voice support.

I agree with BSA that one Google WiFi puck is probably insufficient, but when I've recommended them I've used a similar methodology I do with subwoofers. Unless you have a really large venue, start with one, and if that's insufficient, add another incrementally until you get a satisfactory result. In the Google case the 3-pack on sale can be a compelling value. I haven't tried the Netgear alternative TLSGuy recommended, but I've always liked Netgear equipment when I've used it. (I had a Nighthawk in my work apartment, and it also worked flawlessly.)

 

[Trell]

All this older gear seems to work okay. My wife & I use two computers (one lap top for the usual email & internet browsing), two smart phones, and Netflix & Amazon Prime via Chromecast. We are not gamers.

For your non-UHD Chromecast you can buy a power supply that let you connect it to LAN instead of wireless, which should make you less dependent on good WiFi performance for the Chromecast.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I haven't tried the Netgear alternative TLSGuy recommended, but I've always liked Netgear equipment when I've used it. (I had a Nighthawk in my work apartment, and it also worked flawlessly.)

To be fair, in general, I do like wifi mesh technology and Google wifi is a mesh system too. Netgear Orbi mesh is one of the fastest one due to their design (using a separate channel/radio for wireless backhaul, not sharing time/resources with other radios), but I have a very poor experience with their network devices software, in both home and enterprise devices. They typically don't score highly on making all efforts to ensure their software is bug and security vulnerabilities free and their tech support leaves a lot to be desired in terms of knowledge.

 

[j_garcia]

It's late tonight, but right now I find myself wondering why I want to replace the old but reliable modem & router that have worked well for years . All because I wanted to stop renting the modem from RCN.

How's that phrase go… If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

At least the Arris 6183 seems reliable. But how can so many routers be such junk?
Tomorrow, I'll look into ASUS as well. Thanks.

I have not "rented" my modem from my ISP for over 10 years. If you look at what they charge you, 1 yr of renting it is roughly the cost of the modem. That to me is broke. So it takes a little while for it to pay for itself (like most things), but subsequent years are "rent free" I upgrade my modem every few years too though as speeds increase, but I am covered for a while now since I don't really want to pay for 300+Mbps. The downside is that you have to add a router to get wifi, but you get to pick that to suit your needs and can change that any time if those needs change without changing the modem.

Motorola and Arris are the same thing. I think Arris was the OEM for them at some point because if you look at the older Motos, they are identical in design.

TP Link I avoid. Negear is hit or miss. Some of their stuff is good and some of it not so much, mainly the less expensive stuff. I've heard the same about their support. I drive by Netgear every day on my way to and from work.

 

[rojo]

https://github.com/RMerl/asuswrt-merlin/wiki/Supported-Devices
https://www.snbforums.com/threads/the-tm-ac1900-is-not-supported.48056/

Huh. That's not always been the case I don't think. https://www.bayareatechpros.com/ac1900-to-ac68u/

Wonder whether current versions of Merlin would brick a TM-AC1900? I'm highly tempted to try it and see.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I have not "rented" my modem from my ISP for over 10 years. If you look at what they charge you, 1 yr of renting it is roughly the cost of the modem. That to me is broke.

As much as I'm not a fan of Comcast as a company, the 1yr of rent = purchase price is not true for voice-enabled modems. It's more like 2yrs of rent = purchase price, and until last year it was closer to 3yrs. I always rented Comcast modems because of the 2-3yr formula, and they had a no questions free exchange policy to a newer model. Comcast put me in the modem purchase market when they switched to the latest Xfinity modem design that has a noisy fan it. The fan, which runs 24/7, was so loud it was audible even during movies. They told me the first one I had of that design was just defective, but when the replacement made just as much noise I switched to a fan-less Arris equivalent.

 

[Irvrobinson]

To be fair, in general, I do like wifi mesh technology and Google wifi is a mesh system too. Netgear Orbi mesh is one of the fastest one due to their design (using a separate channel/radio for wireless backhaul, not sharing time/resources with other radios),but I have a very poor experience with their network devices software, in both home and enterprise devices. They typically don't score highly on making all efforts to ensure their software is bug and security vulnerabilities free and their tech support leaves a lot to be desired in terms of knowledge.

To be fair, shoddy software development is a disease that seems to permeate high tech products these days, especially companies based in Silicon Valley. Both consumer and enterprise products. My eyes roll when I hear about the lack of reliability in purported enterprise quality products. Product companies set schedules and budgets that can only be met by having customers do a lot of the comprehensive debugging, and these same companies encourage infecting proprietary products with a lot of open source code to save schedule time and development funds. Some open source code is very good, especially from companies like Google and Facebook that open source their building block modules to help them increase broad spectrum testing, but so much of open source is undocumented, uncommented, poorly written crap. Many times the product developers themselves don't really know the intricacies of the open source modules they use, and then, surprise, they have to root-cause and debug undocumented code when something breaks.

Hardware still demands a lot of rigor in development, because circuits have to obey the unforgiving laws of physics, but software only has to obey to the laws of CPUs and operating systems, so a lot more sloppiness is possible.

 

[Swerd]

I'd still recommend the Arris over the moto, and sorry to burst your bubble, but a single google wifi unit won't do in the 2700sqft house. You'd need at least 2, preferably 3. These are on occasional sale for $220 for 3 pack.

Got it about the Arris SB6183 modem. It's on top of the modem list, replacing the Motorola. So far, it seems to be widely recommended. It certainly should do the job for me. Thanks everyone who mentioned it.

Considering all the difficulty people have had in finding a stable and non-crap router, I may have to bite the bullet and pay for a Google Mesh router or two.

At present, my office is approximately centrally located on the 1st floor of my house.

My house's footprint is roughly 33' × 40'. (I got out my 50' tape measure this morning which I haven't used in a very long time .) My office is roughly centrally located on the 1st floor. In it I keep my desktop computer, cable feed, modem, & router. I run short cat 5 cables from the modem to the router & from the router to the desktop. I also operate a laptop computer, two smartphones, and Chromecast via WiFi. At present, we have no problems with WiFi deadspots anywhere in the house, on either floor. The basement, with steel I beams and support columns, is unfinished.

The office shares an interior wall with the family room where the HT & TV are. The distance between the router and the HT is maybe 3 feet. I could easily run a cat 5 cable from the router to the HT, but so far I haven't needed to do that. I'll try one Google router in the office and see what happens. If there are any dead spots upstairs, I'll get a 2nd router.

 

[Swerd]

There's broke and then there's obsolescence. But if you're happy with the performance you're getting and you're (surprisingly) a technophobe, then stay with what you have and don't stress about needless things. You're in good company; though my wife started her career in system software development, she has turned into a technophobe too.

I guess I resent being called a technophobe .

I spent a long career as a biochemist, and I always regarded scientific gear as tools to be used, not as means to an end. As a grad student in biochemistry, before the days of desktop PCs, there was a guy across the hall from my lab, who fancied himself a 'real biophysicist'. He once was considered an expert in using nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) spectroscopy to study properties of biological molecules, mainly small proteins. By the time I was there, he no longer did any interesting science, but he spent great effort & money 'computerizing' his lab. His lab benches may have been clean & dry, but his electronic gear was state-of-the-art for the late 1970s. Scientifically he was dead in the water.

Later in the 1980s I taught myself to use computers (Macs & PCs). They are useful tools that allow you do something more interesting. I was always wary of getting too absorbed in them, as they were not what I really did. I regard home sound systems similarly. The electronic gear is only a means to allow me to listen to music. Replacing electronic gear only because it's obsolete is a distraction from my real intent. I'm not really a technophobe, but I do resent the rapid obsolescence and the sometimes sloppy engineering of modern 'tech' gear. (Edit: Irv later pointed out the differences in the 'tech' world between computer hardware engineering and the often sloppy software development. I agree.)

Now I'm getting to be an old guy – only 5-10 years away from hollering "get off my lawn" at anyone near my yard . I may know a lot about the biochemical mechanisms of modern anti-cancer drugs. But I also know there are others who don't. I know enough to not accuse them of being luddites or technophobes.

Now you can get off my lawn!

 

[Swerd]

This question is somewhat related as it addresses the question of separate modem & router vs. combined modem-router.

Last winter, my brother bought a new combined modem-router as he was moving from a larger house to a smaller apartment. He ordered a Netgear Nighthawk C7000. Its an AC1900 (24x8) DOCSIS 3.0 WiFi Cable Modem Router Combo. It's said to be good for download speed of 500 Mbps. He's a radiologist and keeps two highly capable computers with very large HD screens so he can view CT & MRI scans at home. I'm not sure, but these images might be higher resolution than 4K HD. They are sent over an extended secure network operated by his hospital. His ISP is Comcast. His IT guy at the hospital had said that modem-router would be suitable for their network.

In the 6 months since he's had the device, it's worked fine for his radiology-capable computers (cat 5 wired directly to the router) as well as his laptop and smartphone via WiFi. I get it that his apartment is smaller than my house.

From his experience I had thought that my needs might be as easily met, perhaps with less cost. This thread has led me into a very different direction. What am I missing?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Got it about the Arris SB6183 modem. It's on top of the modem list, replacing the Motorola. So far, it seems to be widely recommended. It certainly should do the job for me. Thanks everyone who mentioned it.

Considering all the difficulty people have had in finding a stable and non-crap router, I may have to bite the bullet and pay for a Google Mesh router or two.

At present, my office is approximately centrally located on the 1st floor of my house.

My house's footprint is roughly 33' × 40'. (I got out my 50' tape measure this morning which I haven't used in a very long time .) My office is roughly centrally located on the 1st floor. In it I keep my desktop computer, cable feed, modem, & router. I run a short cat 5 cable from the modem to the router & from the router to the desktop. I also operate a laptop computer, two smartphones, and Chromecast via WiFi. At present, we have no problems with WiFi deadspots anywhere in the house, on either floor. The basement, with steel I beams and support columns, is unfinished.

The office shares an interior wall with the family room where the HT & TV are. The distance between the router and the HT is maybe 3 feet. I could easily run a cat 5 cable from the router to the HT, but so far I haven't needed to do that. I'll try one Google router in the office and see what happens. If there are any dead spots upstairs, I'll get a 2nd router.

Fair enough.
If you could imagine the exact physical center of the area where you might want to use the wifi, place the single wifi access point/router there - it may be toward the ceiling (or on top of tall cabinet) it may be sufficient coverage. I don't think I need to teach you about the limitations of EM radiation ;-)

 

[j_garcia]

As much as I'm not a fan of Comcast as a company, the 1yr of rent = purchase price is not true for voice-enabled modems. It's more like 2yrs of rent = purchase price, and until last year it was closer to 3yrs. I always rented Comcast modems because of the 2-3yr formula, and they had a no questions free exchange policy to a newer model. Comcast put me in the modem purchase market when they switched to the latest Xfinity modem design that has a noisy fan it. The fan, which runs 24/7, was so loud it was audible even during movies. They told me the first one I had of that design was just defective, but when the replacement made just as much noise I switched to a fan-less Arris equivalent.

Well, it used to be $8/mo ($96/yr = ~$100 modem, which is usually current model),then increased to $10/mo and now is $11 or $12/mo. for the standard modem. They know how to increase profit off something the vast majority probably don't understand, and is almost a hidden cost.

When I had AT&T, they were the opposite. They charged you an upfront $100 for the combo modem/router, then said they would refund the $100 at the end of that year. They did not and I ended up part of the class action lawsuit over that (and I actually did end up getting the refund) and their speeds were horrible. I dropped them and won't ever use them again.

FWIW, there are newer modems than the 6183, but I am not sure you'd benefit from something newer than that. My son in law has the 6190 and we don't see much difference, but it appears there are two newer ones than that since I bought mine.

 

[rojo]

This question is somewhat related as it addresses the question of separate modem & router vs. combined modem-router.... From his experience I had thought that my needs might be as easily met, perhaps with less cost. This thread has led me into a very different direction. What am I missing?

Well, there's the obvious issue of when one component goes bad the thing is more expensive to replace than replacing the individual component. Remember when your parents / neighbors / whatever used to ask you whether they should get that TV with integrated VCR?

But beyond that, it's mostly the firmware / software stability thing. The Netgear would probably be fine if you don't mind to restart it once a week or after too many guests have connected and disconnected. I don't have a lot of confidence in the stability of the software driving very many routers. I've had to take too many calls from people asking, "Well why won't this connect at home?"

 

[TLS Guy]

To be fair, in general, I do like wifi mesh technology and Google wifi is a mesh system too. Netgear Orbi mesh is one of the fastest one due to their design (using a separate channel/radio for wireless backhaul, not sharing time/resources with other radios), but I have a very poor experience with their network devices software, in both home and enterprise devices. They typically don't score highly on making all efforts to ensure their software is bug and security vulnerabilities free and their tech support leaves a lot to be desired in terms of knowledge.

In the past I would agree. I have had bad experiences with NetGear also.

However my brother's large rambling Georgian house at Langely Kent has always been an absolute nightmare as regards Wi-Fi coverage.

We put on the NetGear Orbi mesh system on a visit December 2018. The problem was solved for the first time. Coverage is good over the whole house and it has been stable

I have had the same experience here.

If you have a larger home with Wi-Fi coverage problems then the NetGear Orbi mesh should now be the first go to product in my view. I'm not aware of anything that comes close to it in performance, especially coverage and speed of connection. Speed is the same as hard wire, and I have not seen this before.

This time NetGear have crushed the competition. This is a brilliant product excellently thought out and executed. It is also very good value for money. From two experiences now, I can only give it my strongest endorsement. And that's from someone not easily impressed or satisfied with products in this arena.