Info on B&W 802 Series 1

[killdozzer]

I'm asking this after digging the best I knew how, it goes without saying. Hifiengine came out short (it has a lot of others but not these in particular) as well as Stereophile and other reliable web sites.

If you personally have some info on these, or might know of a web page similar to hifiengine, please let me know.

I've seen these old 802 series marked as nominally 4 and 8 ohms and I wouldn't want to damage my amp.
These are the speakers:

...the ones I mentioned inheriting in another thread.

I played them today and was amazed by their performance. I didn't give them a good work-out, though, because my AVR might not be the proper testing tool and the NAD 2x150 into 8 that came with them has some problems as it looses the signal on the volume knob.

These have a sealed woofer box and the "head" with the mid and the tweeter can be toed-in independently of the woofer box. They are really impressive.

 

[everettT]

I'm asking this after digging the best I knew how, it goes without saying. Hifiengine came out short (it has a lot of others but not these in particular) as well as Stereophile and other reliable web sites.

If you personally have some info on these, or might know of a web page similar to hifiengine, please let me know.

I've seen these old 802 series marked as nominally 4 and 8 ohms and I wouldn't want to damage my amp.
These are the speakers:
View attachment 29212
...the ones I mentioned inheriting in another thread.

I played them today and was amazed by their performance. I didn't give them a good work-out, though, because my AVR might not be the proper testing tool and the NAD 2x150 into 8 that came with them has some problems as it looses the signal on the volume knob.

These have a sealed woofer box and the "head" with the mid and the tweeter can be toed-in independently of the woofer box. They are really impressive.

When those came out 150wpc amp was still pretty big. McIntosh and a few other were just getting into the 300 to 500wpc amps. You should have no issues whatsoever..

 

[Verdinut]

I'm asking this after digging the best I knew how, it goes without saying. Hifiengine came out short (it has a lot of others but not these in particular) as well as Stereophile and other reliable web sites.

If you personally have some info on these, or might know of a web page similar to hifiengine, please let me know.

I've seen these old 802 series marked as nominally 4 and 8 ohms and I wouldn't want to damage my amp.
These are the speakers:
View attachment 29212
...the ones I mentioned inheriting in another thread.

I played them today and was amazed by their performance. I didn't give them a good work-out, though, because my AVR might not be the proper testing tool and the NAD 2x150 into 8 that came with them has some problems as it looses the signal on the volume knob.

These have a sealed woofer box and the "head" with the mid and the tweeter can be toed-in independently of the woofer box. They are really impressive.

If your AVR has pre-outs for the left and right channels, it might be the time for you to consider getting an affordable pro audio amp which would be able to handle most anything, without worry about the speaker's impedance curve such as QSC and Crown products.

Personally, I prefer the QSC Class AB amps. Depending on your listening distance from it, as these contain cooling fans, I could come up with a proper recommendation. In my HT system, I'm using four QSC DCA Series 2 channel amps and I wouldn't use anything else. Apart from having lower noise fans, they have excellent specs and you can't kill them:

https://www.qsc.com/cinema/products/power-amplifiers/dca-series/

 

[killdozzer]

When those came out 150wpc amp was still pretty big. McIntosh and a few other were just getting into the 300 to 500wpc amps. You should have no issues whatsoever..

Series 1 is about as old as I am, but they play better.

Thanks for the info. My Yamaha AVR is rated 65 Wpch into 8, but those "twin woofers burning" (a Wishbone Ash reference) gave me a bit of a headache. I thought they might ask for more than that. In practice, it didn't seem that way; the AVR didn't heat up and had some headroom to go all the while the room was already filled with sound.

No surprise, they go much lower than my bookshelf LS50 and the general feeling is that the sound is somehow bigger. I don't see LS50 to have a narrow focus, but these felt even wider.

However, I must say that given the price and heftiness difference, I'm not giving up my LS50.

 

[killdozzer]

If your AVR has pre-outs for the left and right channels, it might be the time for you to consider getting an affordable pro audio amp which would be able to handle most anything, without worry about the speaker's impedance curve such as QSC and Crown products.

Personally, I prefer the QSC Class AB amps. Depending on your listening distance from it, as these contain cooling fans, I could come up with a proper recommendation. In my HT system, I'm using four QSC DCA Series 2 channel amps and I wouldn't use anything else. Apart from having lower noise fans, they have excellent specs and you can't kill them:

https://www.qsc.com/cinema/products/power-amplifiers/dca-series/

Thank you for this recomm, but I'm not going that way. I haven't even decided I'm keeping these. They are without a doubt an overkill for my living space. Even my lottery speakers would probably be KEF Reference 1 and not some 40kg floorstanders with 4 drivers. So pro amps and cooling fans is not how I envision my audio equipment.

I'm asking about the impedance and the amp because I would like to test these to see how they handle themselves at reference levels to asses their condition. I just wouldn't like to burn something in the process.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I used to own the 801 Matrix Series 2 back in the day. A single 12" woofer on those. Wow, they played loud and clear. I had separate audiophile amps back then because I thought I needed them for better sound. I was wrong.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm asking this after digging the best I knew how, it goes without saying. Hifiengine came out short (it has a lot of others but not these in particular) as well as Stereophile and other reliable web sites.

If you personally have some info on these, or might know of a web page similar to hifiengine, please let me know.

I've seen these old 802 series marked as nominally 4 and 8 ohms and I wouldn't want to damage my amp.
These are the speakers:
View attachment 29212
...the ones I mentioned inheriting in another thread.

I played them today and was amazed by their performance. I didn't give them a good work-out, though, because my AVR might not be the proper testing tool and the NAD 2x150 into 8 that came with them has some problems as it looses the signal on the volume knob.

These have a sealed woofer box and the "head" with the mid and the tweeter can be toed-in independently of the woofer box. They are really impressive.

Here is the original sales brochure.

Back in the day that original 800 series were pretty highly regarded.

My friend Phil owned the original 800s for many years. The 802s have an F3 of 55 Hz. The 800s around 40 Hz. I got to hear the 800s frequently. The Q of those speakers is 0.7, and I always thought that series had just a little bass ripple. That Kevlar mid always got into a little trouble at the top of its range. The head unit of the 802 and 800 where identical. So I'm very familiar with the sound.

One thing you should know is that I discovered that the 800s had a large capacitor in series with the woofer section. I think this was done as in those days there were a lot of amps around without DC off set protection from output transistor breakdown. So this cap blocked the DC in event of this type of amp failure. I discovered this as one of Phil's woofer sections stopped working. When I investigated the problem, I found the cap in the affected circuit to have failed and be totally open circuit. I removed these caps from both speakers, and I have to say I think that improved results.

I note that in the control room of the Berlin Philharmonic Digital Concert Hall the original B & W 800s are their monitor speakers. Their mixes and sound are excellent. Since I think you always mix to your speakers, that is at least an endorsement.

You probably do find these speakers to sound incredible and they should as they were a speaker that was relatively exotic in their day.

One other thing you should know is that the woofer cones are Bextrene. This is a plastic no longer produced. Bextrene cones can develop cracks with advancing age and can not be repaired. This has been particularly true of KEF Bextrene cones. Raymond Cooke was particularly fond of Bextrene as a cone material, although I always regarded it as somewhat colored.

In closing Phil was never entirely content with the sound of his 800s, even though he owned them for a significant period of time. He always liked to listen to the TLs in my studio, now my rear backs. However these were larger. They were dual TLs with a much deeper and more accurate bass response with an active crossover between the lines. So hardly a fair contest.

 

[Ponzio]

While I’m not a B&W fanboy, I’d buy them, depending on the price, for their probable rise in value in the land of audiophilia in the future. They’re very aesthetically unique with a respected brand name.

This would also give you a good excuse to upgrade your Yamaha AVR to one with more power, like the Yamaha Aventage series RX-A2040 & up (145WPC to 165WPC) for both of these speakers and the LS50’s.

I own a pair of LS50’s and I can assure you the more power the better. I went from running them with a Yamaha RX-V1070 (110WPC) to a RX-A2040 (145WPC) and the increased headroom was very noticeable at the same volume setting. They became more “alive”, if that makes any sense.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

 

[Ponzio]

Not to change the subject. I found this interesting. A modern B&W factory tour.

 

[killdozzer]

Here is the original sales brochure.

Back in the day that original 800 series were pretty highly regarded.

My friend Phil owned the original 800s for many years. The 802s have an F3 of 55 Hz. The 800s around 40 Hz. I got to hear the 800s frequently. The Q of those speakers is 0.7, and I always thought that series had just a little bass ripple. That Kevlar mid always got into a little trouble at the top of its range. The head unit of the 802 and 800 where identical. So I'm very familiar with the sound.

One thing you should know is that I discovered that the 800s had a large capacitor in series with the woofer section. I think this was done as in those days there were a lot of amps around without DC off set protection from output transistor breakdown. So this cap blocked the DC in event of this type of amp failure. I discovered this as one of Phil's woofer sections stopped working. When I investigated the problem, I found the cap in the affected circuit to have failed and be totally open circuit. I removed these caps from both speakers, and I have to say I think that improved results.

I note that in the control room of the Berlin Philharmonic Digital Concert Hall the original B & W 800s are their monitor speakers. Their mixes and sound are excellent. Since I think you always mix to your speakers, that is at least an endorsement.

You probably do find these speakers to sound incredible and they should as they were a speaker that was relatively exotic in their day.

One other thing you should know is that the woofer cones are Bextrene. This is a plastic no longer produced. Bextrene cones can develop cracks with advancing age and can not be repaired. This has been particularly true of KEF Bextrene cones. Raymond Cooke was particularly fond of Bextrene as a cone material, although I always regarded it as somewhat colored.

In closing Phil was never entirely content with the sound of his 800s, even though he owned them for a significant period of time. He always liked to listen to the TLs in my studio, now my rear backs. However these were larger. They were dual TLs with a much deeper and more accurate bass response with an active crossover between the lines. So hardly a fair contest.

Thank you for all the info. Yes, I like the sound and didn't notice any harshness from the Kevlar, but perhaps I didn't feed it the material that would bring this forward.

It was a very enjoyable session. I had them 5 feet apart and I know they could go further than that. I had them on the shorter wall playing down the room two feet from the back wall and my LP one third in front of the rear wall. I played Basie for jazz, Vanska (the one you recommended to me) for classical (2nd movement of the 7th Beethoven), Tracy Chapman for acoustic instruments, Sade for good production and Radiohead for modern pop/rock.

I also played records; Mick Jagger's Wondering Spirit, Dire Straits Communique... I have some Karajan on records, but the day was short. I've noticed that in all different types of set up my TT (Technics sl-q202 with an OrtofonS needle) sounds thin and lost with Yamaha phono stage and confident and meaty with NAD 106 pre-amp phono stage (perhaps it's not a fair competition).

Most of the cables I got are trash. Interconnects loosing signal and speaker cables being some monstrosity that is to thick for the speakers' binding posts if used as naked wire so they were tapered in a way I would never allow; strands being twisted some shorter some longer to get a conical shape to make it fit at least with a tip.

Thank you once more, but the link goes to "Oooops, sorry..." type of message. I didn't find the content.

Perhaps I could ask here to avoid starting a whole thread for a quick question; If I'd want to use a pre-amp as a phono stage and not having a power amp (until it's hopefully fixed) which port would be the obvious choice on my Yamaha AVR to plug in the said pre-amp. I know some ports have different impedance, so would I plug into tape, cd, phono?

Also, I'm sorry to say, but I don't know what is a bass ripple. I will tell you, though, that all the membranes look surprisingly well kept and the suspension is soft, black and rubbery as new. Only the dust caps on woofers appear to have tiny wrinkles.

 

[killdozzer]

While I’m not a B&W fanboy, I’d buy them, depending on the price...

I'm also not. My father was. But being fair to them, they brought some sheer pleasure to my listening session. One big portion of it being the fact that they are in a perfect working condition. Playing some of our "subwoofer candy" as we call it here, they didn't even blink. Even when it was modern loudness pop going insanely low, you couldn't hear a faintest buzz that wold indicate the drivers are worn by the old time-tooth. I'm almost sorry I don't have a huge living room. But my first big love are my LS50, they just hit the sweet spot for and that's it.

 

[killdozzer]

I used to own the 801 Matrix Series 2 back in the day. A single 12" woofer on those. Wow, they played loud and clear. I had separate audiophile amps back then because I thought I needed them for better sound. I was wrong.

Thank you for your opinion. I read through an Audiogon debate Matrix vs. Nautilus and every single poster went for the Matrix. People really use to love these. There was this one member's story about returning to them selling the Nautilus series and ending up saving heap of money, but ultimately being happier.

 

[JerryLove]

I've owned both 801 Series 3 and the first of the 801 N.

I found the series 3 (the more similar to what is being discussed) very impressive speakers that were not difficult to drive (unlike the 801Ns which were very impressive but far more demanding of the amp).

The only reason I don't still have them is, well, they were ugly and I managed equally good performance pairing my Salks with a sub.

 

[JerryLove]

Thank you for your opinion. I read through an Audiogon debate Matrix vs. Nautilus and every single poster went for the Matrix. People really use to love these. There was this one member's story about returning to them selling the Nautilus series and ending up saving heap of money, but ultimately being happier.

The Nautilus' are harder to drive (and heavier and more expensive).

 

[Verdinut]

Perhaps I could ask here to avoid starting a whole thread for a quick question; If I'd want to use a pre-amp as a phono stage and not having a power amp (until it's hopefully fixed) which port would be the obvious choice on my Yamaha AVR to plug in the said pre-amp. I know some ports have different impedance, so would I plug into tape, cd, phono?

Any input would do. They are all high level inputs and you don't have to worry about input impedance. If your AVR has an AUX input as I presume, you could use it to plug a phono preamplifier.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thank you for all the info. Yes, I like the sound and didn't notice any harshness from the Kevlar, but perhaps I didn't feed it the material that would bring this forward.

It was a very enjoyable session. I had them 5 feet apart and I know they could go further than that. I had them on the shorter wall playing down the room two feet from the back wall and my LP one third in front of the rear wall. I played Basie for jazz, Vanska (the one you recommended to me) for classical (2nd movement of the 7th Beethoven), Tracy Chapman for acoustic instruments, Sade for good production and Radiohead for modern pop/rock.

I also played records; Mick Jagger's Wondering Spirit, Dire Straits Communique... I have some Karajan on records, but the day was short. I've noticed that in all different types of set up my TT (Technics sl-q202 with an OrtofonS needle) sounds thin and lost with Yamaha phono stage and confident and meaty with NAD 106 pre-amp phono stage (perhaps it's not a fair competition).

Most of the cables I got are trash. Interconnects loosing signal and speaker cables being some monstrosity that is to thick for the speakers' binding posts if used as naked wire so they were tapered in a way I would never allow; strands being twisted some shorter some longer to get a conical shape to make it fit at least with a tip.

Thank you once more, but the link goes to "Oooops, sorry..." type of message. I didn't find the content.

Perhaps I could ask here to avoid starting a whole thread for a quick question; If I'd want to use a pre-amp as a phono stage and not having a power amp (until it's hopefully fixed) which port would be the obvious choice on my Yamaha AVR to plug in the said pre-amp. I know some ports have different impedance, so would I plug into tape, cd, phono?

Also, I'm sorry to say, but I don't know what is a bass ripple. I will tell you, though, that all the membranes look surprisingly well kept and the suspension is soft, black and rubbery as new. Only the dust caps on woofers appear to have tiny wrinkles.

No that link does not copy. I have corrected it, but you will have to select the first item on the page.

Bass ripple is the slight bass or warmth that you get as output just goes up before roll off in a sealed enclosure. This increases with as Q increases.

You can plug your preamp into any input except phono.

 

[lovinthehd]

The inputs on an avr most suited to just using as a power amp are usually the multi-ch inputs if you have any....otherwise as said.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I've seen these old 802 series marked as nominally 4 and 8 ohms and I wouldn't want to damage my amp.
These are the speakers:
View attachment 29212
...the ones I mentioned inheriting in another thread.

If they're the original 802F the impedance is nominally 16 ohms, so you definitely won't damage the amp, however the low voltage sensitivity means there's a slight risk of running out of voltage. 150W is really a minimum for those speakers.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Thank you for all the info. Yes, I like the sound and didn't notice any harshness from the Kevlar, but perhaps I didn't feed it the material that would bring this forward.

You won't hear it because there's nothing to hear. The original 801 and 802 series used 4th order butterworth filters and crossed over at about 3kHz. The kevlar mid driver is also 2 inches smaller than the 6 inch FST units used in recent models, so the break-up area is higher in frequency. However, they are more colored in the mids than current models due to the presence of cabinet resonances, and of course that old fabric dome tweeter isn't great by today's standards. Having said that I've heard a pair of 801F's with new and improved crossovers and they sounded amazing and very tonally accurate.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Thank you for your opinion. I read through an Audiogon debate Matrix vs. Nautilus and every single poster went for the Matrix. People really use to love these. There was this one member's story about returning to them selling the Nautilus series and ending up saving heap of money, but ultimately being happier.

I’ve never heard the Matrix. But I recall people (like The Audio Critic) had a lot more respect for them because they measured a lot better than the fancy Diamond series.