What Is Your Expert Opinion?

[Jungle Squirrel]

First, I'd like to thank Audiohaulics for all they do. Second, If this question has been asked, please point me in the right direction as I have been unable to find a similar situation.Third, I am stuck with the system I have so please don't recommend I go out and buy all new speakers. I know there's a lot of better stuff out there. The wife won't allow it and I'm already in deep enough with all the crap she wants.

As a former avionics tech I have a decent understanding of electrical theory. I've been in management for a while and haven't used much of what I learned in Air Force basic electronic principles tech school back in 2001. Funny thing is, Audiohaulics website and videos have helped the light bulb finally turn on for some things I never completely understood.

I am moving into a new home in 2 weeks and I have and plan to use all the equipment from my previous home. The area I feel I has the most opportunity for improvement is bass. I have 2 Definitive Technology BP8020ST towers with built in 8" sub woofers operating at 150 watts RMS. These obviously do not hit lower frequencies that I am desiring to hear. This room is strictly for theater use.

I'm thinking of adding a 3rd or 4th sub and I'm leaning toward the SVS SB1000 or PB1000.

Questions:
1. Can I add 1 sub woofer to the rear or is the idea of that making people scream right now?
2. With the understanding that I need to do a sub woofer crawl, and taking the towers into consideration, where would be a good general placement for a 3rd of 4th sub woofer.
3. Is there a strong possibility of me being able to localize new better sub/s since they will likely produce lower frequencies and better sound than my current subs.

I am looking for a good balance and I'm looking for some opinions out there to help me make an educated decision. Below is a list of my equipment and a diagram of the room.

Everything is Definitive technology:
1X CS9040 - Center about 2.5' from floor.
2X BP8020ST - Towers - floor level
2X SR9040 - Surround LH/RH - mounting 7' from floor
2X DT6.5R - Ovehead LH/RH - In ceiling
2X Pro Monitor 800 Rear LH/RH - mounted about 7.5' from floor level.

The wall between the couch and stairs 3.5' tall.
I will also heavy curtains on the LH and RH sides of the room.


Thank You!

 

[shadyJ]

If you want deep bass, go for the PB-1000, not the SB-1000. The SB-1000 is likely going to be very limited below 30 Hz, whereas the PB-1000 should be pretty strong down to 20 Hz.

Since you already have the two subs going on with your tower speakers, its probably a bit more difficult to establish an optimal place for the stand-alone sub. I would put it in a corner where deeper bass tends to get a bigger boost. You will just have to experiment with placement and keep it where it sounds best to you.

As for localization, that happens with upper bass frequencies, not deep bass. I wouldn't worry about localization since you are not likely to be using a high crossover frequency. Keep the crossover at 80 Hz or below if that is an issue for you.

 

[HTfreak2004]

2 SVS pb1000’s is the better choice for your setup. You could even crossover your 8020’s at 40-80 hz and use the subs for 60 hz and under with LFE at 120hz to the pb1000 subs only! I found crossing my system mains 1 octave above there low frequency point not the port tuning point best. In my situation 44 hz low for mains and 60 hz for my centre & surrounds made me set a 80 hz crossover for the 5 channels to my sub. Keep in mind the low frequency range of your centre channel , surrounds, and rears. Generally it is better to use a single crossover for bass management to sum the bass to your sub(s) a bit more smoothly. Nothing wrong with placing the one sub behind you if you find the bass meets your taste. You may need to set the phase of the sub 180 degrees out of phase with the screen channels to smooth out your system but until your setup and try it will have to wait to hear! Your room is fairly large by your picture. Maybe 2800-3400 cubic feet depending on the height which wasn’t available from your picture. Two pb1000 subs will probably give you a better spl and overall balance. Maybe demo them for s month and then you will have your answer!


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[mtrycrafts]

Welcome to AH.

As you are doing this fresh, I'd suggest using 4 ceiling speakers for Atmos, not 2.

 

[Andrein]

If size is a concern then svs sb2000 might be a good choice. Comparable to pb1000 in terms of spl at 20-25 hz probably due to newer driver but in smaller box.

 

[Jungle Squirrel]

If you want deep bass, go for the PB-1000, not the SB-1000. The SB-1000 is likely going to be very limited below 30 Hz, whereas the PB-1000 should be pretty strong down to 20 Hz.

Since you already have the two subs going on with your tower speakers, its probably a bit more difficult to establish an optimal place for the stand-alone sub. I would put it in a corner where deeper bass tends to get a bigger boost. You will just have to experiment with placement and keep it where it sounds best to you.

As for localization, that happens with upper bass frequencies, not deep bass. I wouldn't worry about localization since you are not likely to be using a high crossover frequency. Keep the crossover at 80 Hz or below if that is an issue for you.

Thanks for the response! I think I will begin with 1 sub and likely the PB as you suggested due to the lower freq response. That is good information on the localization as it was one of my main concerns. I was worried that having a more superior sub/subs would create a condition in which I am hearing bas fro different directions.

 

[Jungle Squirrel]

2 SVS pb1000’s is the better choice for your setup. You could even crossover your 8020’s at 40-80 hz and use the subs for 60 hz and under with LFE at 120hz to the pb1000 subs only! I found crossing my system mains 1 octave above there low frequency point not the port tuning point best. In my situation 44 hz low for mains and 60 hz for my centre & surrounds made me set a 80 hz crossover for the 5 channels to my sub. Keep in mind the low frequency range of your centre channel , surrounds, and rears. Generally it is better to use a single crossover for bass management to sum the bass to your sub(s) a bit more smoothly. Nothing wrong with placing the one sub behind you if you find the bass meets your taste. You may need to set the phase of the sub 180 degrees out of phase with the screen channels to smooth out your system but until your setup and try it will have to wait to hear! Your room is fairly large by your picture. Maybe 2800-3400 cubic feet depending on the height which wasn’t available from your picture. Two pb1000 subs will probably give you a better spl and overall balance. Maybe demo them for s month and then you will have your answer!


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Thank you for responding! This is all great information. I will likely start with one sub, but I have a strong feeling I will end up adding 2. The only thing I'm not capable of doing is adding the LFE as my receiver (Yamaha RX2070) does not have LFE output. It's a great receiver though and I got a killer deal for it. In a couple of weeks when I hook all of this up I will definetly refer to this information. Thank you for taking the time to respond!

 

[Jungle Squirrel]

Welcome to AH.

As you are doing this fresh, I'd suggest using 4 ceiling speakers for Atmos, not 2.

That is a super cool setup! I have definetely thought over the 4 ceiling speakers for the Atmos and it would be ideal for the Atmos environment; however, given the limited movies available in Atmos and that I'm limited to 9 channels, I'm holding off on that for now. I want to make sure I have 7 channels for surround and build upon that. I believe 2 or 3 years down the road I will likely upgrade the receiver and add 2 more ceiling speakers. As far as routing more wire, patching holes, etc... I'm handy and that won't be a problem for me at all. Thanks for your response!

 

[Jungle Squirrel]

If size is a concern then svs sb2000 might be a good choice. Comparable to pb1000 in terms of spl at 20-25 hz probably due to newer driver but in smaller box.

Size really isn't a concern unless it's just something massive. I have thought about the 2000s. Only drawback is budget. If I go with the 1000's I get 2 if needed. Thanks for the response!

 

[HTfreak2004]

By selecting your speaker size either large or small will impact which speakers will receive a full range signal and which ones will not. In 5 channel surround all channels are full range. The .LFE is a discrete channel for the sub(s) not played by the other 5 or more channels. Your receiver has a default setting for 80hz crossover to any speaker set to small. Any speaker set to large will play full range. No discrete .LFE will be sent to those assigned as large. You would need to use the rca sub outs on your receiver to send your 8020s the .LFE channel if it has rca inputs. From my point of view your 8020s will be optimized if your playing them from a small assignment allowing the pb1000 sub to get the frequencies below 80hz. I would trim the sub -6 db since it isn’t a beast and will probably clip on big explosions. Usually the .LFE discreet channel is -10 db and will get back those dbs from the crossover sum of all speakers set to small. If you set the volume of the sub to match your other channels using the test tone built into your receiver that is generally the way it’s done. After you can use your receiver to boost or trim your sub by -6db up to +6db if your not satisfied with the bass level. I “would not” use the bass gain option however because that defeats the purpose of the recording and demands higher amp power at lower playback volumes compromising sound quantity and coherence. Since your starting with only one subwoofer consider corner loading it until your able to purchase the second one. Two subs generally increase spl peaks up to 6db. You can make your own sub platform using styrofoam wrapped in rug. That will reduce unwanted floor vibrations and smooth the bass with your other channels sometimes quite noticeably. That a cheap solution verses sub dude platform. I made mine for $21.00 for 3 inches of styrofoam 1 inch each 2’x2’ and one $15 small rug wrapped around the styrofoam. My paradigm sub 15 raddled the floating laminate floor so my DIY platform addressed that beautifully. It still shakes my house. But what would you expect from a 15” sub @1700 watts rms 3400 watts peak?



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[PENG]

The only thing I'm not capable of doing is adding the LFE as my receiver (Yamaha RX2070) does not have LFE output.

Did you mean RX-A2070? If it is, then it should have two subwoofer output RCA connectors.

 

[Jungle Squirrel]

By selecting your speaker size either large or small will impact which speakers will receive a full range signal and which ones will not. In 5 channel surround all channels are full range. The .LFE is a discrete channel for the sub(s) not played by the other 5 or more channels. Your receiver has a default setting for 80hz crossover to any speaker set to small. Any speaker set to large will play full range. No discrete .LFE will be sent to those assigned as large. You would need to use the rca sub outs on your receiver to send your 8020s the .LFE channel if it has rca inputs. From my point of view your 8020s will be optimized if your playing them from a small assignment allowing the pb1000 sub to get the frequencies below 80hz. I would trim the sub -6 db since it isn’t a beast and will probably clip on big explosions. Usually the .LFE discreet channel is -10 db and will get back those dbs from the crossover sum of all speakers set to small. If you set the volume of the sub to match your other channels using the test tone built into your receiver that is generally the way it’s done. After you can use your receiver to boost or trim your sub by -6db up to +6db if your not satisfied with the bass level. I “would not” use the bass gain option however because that defeats the purpose of the recording and demands higher amp power at lower playback volumes compromising sound quantity and coherence. Since your starting with only one subwoofer consider corner loading it until your able to purchase the second one. Two subs generally increase spl peaks up to 6db. You can make your own sub platform using styrofoam wrapped in rug. That will reduce unwanted floor vibrations and smooth the bass with your other channels sometimes quite noticeably. That a cheap solution verses sub dude platform. I made mine for $21.00 for 3 inches of styrofoam 1 inch each 2’x2’ and one $15 small rug wrapped around the styrofoam. My paradigm sub 15 raddled the floating laminate floor so my DIY platform addressed that beautifully. It still shakes my house. But what would you expect from a 15” sub @1700 watts rms 3400 watts peak?



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So, I'm going start asking some LFE questions so I can gain a better understanding. The 8020s have normal -/+ terminals and 1 LFE input. There is no RCA input. Keeping in mind that I have no LFE output on the receiver, I originally had the sub woofer pre-out connected to the LFE. After learning more about LFE over the past few weeks, I started to wonder if having the pre-out to the LFE even mattered. I contacted Definitive Technology tech support and the rep told me I only needed to connect the -/+ terminals and set the fronts to large. He said the LFE discrete signals would be played through the subs. Are you saying this will not happen?

I have 2 sub pre-outs total (no problem splitting if needed) front and rear. Would you still run the sub pre outs to the 8020s? If so, I will just split the front signal to the 8020s and sned the rear signals to the new sub/s.

BTW, that's an awesome idea for the styrofoam platform that I am most definitely going to use.

I attached some pictures of the receiver and 8020 rears.

 

[highfigh]

First, I'd like to thank Audiohaulics for all they do. Second, If this question has been asked, please point me in the right direction as I have been unable to find a similar situation.Third, I am stuck with the system I have so please don't recommend I go out and buy all new speakers. I know there's a lot of better stuff out there. The wife won't allow it and I'm already in deep enough with all the crap she wants.

As a former avionics tech I have a decent understanding of electrical theory. I've been in management for a while and haven't used much of what I learned in Air Force basic electronic principles tech school back in 2001. Funny thing is, Audiohaulics website and videos have helped the light bulb finally turn on for some things I never completely understood.

I am moving into a new home in 2 weeks and I have and plan to use all the equipment from my previous home. The area I feel I has the most opportunity for improvement is bass. I have 2 Definitive Technology BP8020ST towers with built in 8" sub woofers operating at 150 watts RMS. These obviously do not hit lower frequencies that I am desiring to hear. This room is strictly for theater use.

I'm thinking of adding a 3rd or 4th sub and I'm leaning toward the SVS SB1000 or PB1000.

Questions:
1. Can I add 1 sub woofer to the rear or is the idea of that making people scream right now?
2. With the understanding that I need to do a sub woofer crawl, and taking the towers into consideration, where would be a good general placement for a 3rd of 4th sub woofer.
3. Is there a strong possibility of me being able to localize new better sub/s since they will likely produce lower frequencies and better sound than my current subs.

I am looking for a good balance and I'm looking for some opinions out there to help me make an educated decision. Below is a list of my equipment and a diagram of the room.

Everything is Definitive technology:
1X CS9040 - Center about 2.5' from floor.
2X BP8020ST - Towers - floor level
2X SR9040 - Surround LH/RH - mounting 7' from floor
2X DT6.5R - Ovehead LH/RH - In ceiling
2X Pro Monitor 800 Rear LH/RH - mounted about 7.5' from floor level.

The wall between the couch and stairs 3.5' tall.
I will also heavy curtains on the LH and RH sides of the room.


Thank You!



View attachment 29207

I would wait until you get into the new place to design a new system or make changes to what you have- the new place might just be more conducive to those low frequencies that you're not hearing now. You could be sitting in the wrong place, too. Walk or crawl around the room (when nobody else is at home, preferably) and listen to the low end- move the main seats back and forward, to make sure the sound isn't better in some other place. Remember- the new room won't 'sound' the same as the current one.

 

[Jungle Squirrel]

By selecting your speaker size either large or small will impact which speakers will receive a full range signal and which ones will not. In 5 channel surround all channels are full range. The .LFE is a discrete channel for the sub(s) not played by the other 5 or more channels. Your receiver has a default setting for 80hz crossover to any speaker set to small. Any speaker set to large will play full range. No discrete .LFE will be sent to those assigned as large. You would need to use the rca sub outs on your receiver to send your 8020s the .LFE channel if it has rca inputs. From my point of view your 8020s will be optimized if your playing them from a small assignment allowing the pb1000 sub to get the frequencies below 80hz. I would trim the sub -6 db since it isn’t a beast and will probably clip on big explosions. Usually the .LFE discreet channel is -10 db and will get back those dbs from the crossover sum of all speakers set to small. If you set the volume of the sub to match your other channels using the test tone built into your receiver that is generally the way it’s done. After you can use your receiver to boost or trim your sub by -6db up to +6db if your not satisfied with the bass level. I “would not” use the bass gain option however because that defeats the purpose of the recording and demands higher amp power at lower playback volumes compromising sound quantity and coherence. Since your starting with only one subwoofer consider corner loading it until your able to purchase the second one. Two subs generally increase spl peaks up to 6db. You can make your own sub platform using styrofoam wrapped in rug. That will reduce unwanted floor vibrations and smooth the bass with your other channels sometimes quite noticeably. That a cheap solution verses sub dude platform. I made mine for $21.00 for 3 inches of styrofoam 1 inch each 2’x2’ and one $15 small rug wrapped around the styrofoam. My paradigm sub 15 raddled the floating laminate floor so my DIY platform addressed that beautifully. It still shakes my house. But what would you expect from a 15” sub @1700 watts rms 3400 watts peak?



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Did you mean RX-A2070? If it is, then it should have two subwoofer output RCA connectors.

Yes, and it does have the two pre-outs for the subs. I thought these were different than LFE though?

 

[HTfreak2004]

Your receiver will send the mids and tweet power and the sub pre out will send the .LFE signal plus any bass from speakers set to small to the LFE input on the 8020s to be amplified internally. Your picture showing the back panel of the 8020s proves that. You will need to plug the 8020s in to use the built in amp. So yes you can get the discrete .1 LFE to the 8020s since the 8inch woofers are acting as active subwoofers. You cannot get the LFE channel to them using the binding posts on the back because that is a full range signal post that you crossover at the receiver end pre amplification so you can remove the frequencies that could damage your mid and tweet. A separate sub cable is an rca wire in this case from your receiver sub out 1 to the 8020s LFE input. I would recommend splitting the signal to each 8020 and not using both sub outs on the receiver. Save the second one for the PB1000 which you can split if you add a second later. Be sure to set the LFE/sub crossover to 120hz in your receiver. Set all your speakers to small will default your speakers to 80 hz and send the frequencies below 80hz to the sub in each of your 8020s. Set the 8020s to small as well that way your receiver will power the mid and tweet and send the frequencies below 80hz to the internally powered sub portion.


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[everettT]

I'd skip the .lfe input on the speakers. I'd cross them at or above 70hz.

 

[PENG]

So, I'm going start asking some LFE questions so I can gain a better understanding. The 8020s have normal -/+ terminals and 1 LFE input. There is no RCA input.

The LEF input as shown in your attached picture, is in fact a RCA input connector.

Keeping in mind that I have no LFE output on the receiver, I originally had the sub woofer pre-out connected to the LFE.

The "Subwoofer pre out" will output the LFE channel as long as in the RX-A2070 speaker setting you set the subwoofer 1&2 to "normal" (see owner's manual page 126)

I started to wonder if having the pre-out to the LFE even mattered. I contacted Definitive Technology tech support and the rep told me I only needed to connect the -/+ terminals and set the fronts to large. He said the LFE discrete signals would be played through the subs. Are you saying this will not happen?

He was correct but only if you set the RX-A2070 subwoofer setting to "none". If you want to add external subwoofers, then you obviously have to set the subwoofer setting to "normal", so in that case you have to use the "LFE Subwoofer Input", and connect it to the RX-A2070's Subwoofer pre out (use either one with a splitter in order to feed the left and right BP8020ST.

I have 2 sub pre-outs total (no problem splitting if needed) front and rear. Would you still run the sub pre outs to the 8020s? If so, I will just split the front signal to the 8020s and sned the rear signals to the new sub/s.

Yes, that is the right way to do it if you want the BP8020ST to receive the LFE channel, otherwise skip it as suggested by everetT. You can try both ways to find out which way sounds better to you. Skipping it would likely get you flatter bass response though.

Edit: I just noticed your room seems too big for 1 or even two PB1000. If two PB2000 exceeds your budget then you probably should get one (the PB2000) for now, and keep the option to add a second one later.

 

[Jungle Squirrel]

Your receiver will send the mids and tweet power and the sub pre out will send the .LFE signal plus any bass from speakers set to small to the LFE input on the 8020s to be amplified internally. Your picture showing the back panel of the 8020s proves that. You will need to plug the 8020s in to use the built in amp. So yes you can get the discrete .1 LFE to the 8020s since the 8inch woofers are acting as active subwoofers. You cannot get the LFE channel to them using the binding posts on the back because that is a full range signal post that you crossover at the receiver end pre amplification so you can remove the frequencies that could damage your mid and tweet. A separate sub cable is an rca wire in this case from your receiver sub out 1 to the 8020s LFE input. I would recommend splitting the signal to each 8020 and not using both sub outs on the receiver. Save the second one for the PB1000 which you can split if you add a second later. Be sure to set the LFE/sub crossover to 120hz in your receiver. Set all your speakers to small will default your speakers to 80 hz and send the frequencies below 80hz to the sub in each of your 8020s. Set the 8020s to small as well that way your receiver will power the mid and tweet and send the frequencies below 80hz to the internally powered sub portion.


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Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[Jungle Squirrel]

The LEF input as shown in your attached picture, is in fact a RCA input connector.



The "Subwoofer pre out" will output the LFE channel as long as in the RX-A2070 speaker setting you set the subwoofer 1&2 to "normal" (see owner's manual page 126)



He was correct but only if you set the RX-A2070 subwoofer setting to "none". If you want to add external subwoofers, then you obviously have to set the subwoofer setting to "normal", so in that case you have to use the "LFE Subwoofer Input", and connect it to the RX-A2070's Subwoofer pre out (use either one with a splitter in order to feed the left and right BP8020ST.



Yes, that is the right way to do it if you want the BP8020ST to receive the LFE channel, otherwise skip it as suggested by everetT. You can try both ways to find out which way sounds better to you. Skipping it would likely get you flatter bass response though.

Thank you very much for the response!

 

[HTfreak2004]

I bet the tech you spoke to at definitive confused the LFE input portion of your 8020s with the full range signal sent through the speaker wire from the receiver amplifier to the 8020s. It is possible that the woofer simply acts as a bass driver when using the binding post without receiving any .LFE information and when you plug in the 8020s the internal amp provides additional power for the .LFE signal similar to bi-amping. I thought I read they are bi-amped internally only when plugged in. Obviously the pb1000 will be a great addition to this setup which will provide real sub performance and the second one will be the icing on the cake. The only downside of the 8020s is the bass driver are really not suited to handle the additional .LFE signal at high output. Probably why they were designed with a side firing woofer to use the corner boundaries as an additional gain to overall SPL. There are always trade offs but still a very practical design when you think about it! I’ve never heard them so my guess is keeping them away from the corners will provide the best music quality and closer to the corners will be better suited for HT. They may be a bit boomy on music if corner loaded with a side firing woofer. You could reverse setup them so the woofer fire towards each other instead of at the walls just for the experience. The speaker doesn’t say I’m a right channel or left. That is up to you to play around with that. How much you place them into the room and the amount of toe in/out will all create a different experience for you. Once you add the pb1000 sub your going to have a lot of critical listening again to dial in your expectations!


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