Bits are not bits

[haraldo]

I disagree, at least when it comes to electronics and digital audio. In fact, the opposite is true; we can measure differences that are not audible. There are questions sometimes about whether measured differences are audible, and other questions about whether DBT and ABX testing are sufficiently resolving with humans to determine audibility, but measuring equipment is a lot better than our ear-brain systems.

and I agree with you that many of these guys refute scientific testing, so nothing would please me more than if we could get a scientific backrgounder on these things..... I don't buy into the cable thing, which is crazy crazy and I simply refuse to throw money into cables.... so much unscientific rubbish here ....

One example: Well, I think you saw intervju with Bent Holter of Hegel, somewhere else around here, he suggests there is distortion not caught by metrics we do today, which is the foundation for the Sound Engine.... there are dynamic artifacts that we don't capture so well.
We can hear but don't measure....

Another example: Why do the original Edison scrolls sound significantly better when digitized to 192KHz than on 44KHz, the bandwidth of these scrolls are only about 8KHz, and so it shoud not make a scientific difference, but it does.... what are we missing? (Stated by John Atkinson in Stereophile)
We can hear but don't measure....
I will look for the URL on this one

 

[haraldo]

No offense, but your experience doesn't warrant the hypothesis that the phenomena is escaping our current understanding of acoustics or signal processing theory. If you can reproduce your experience in blind testing above statistical chance in a controlled situation, and it is not explainable by current scientific models, than yes, let's look at alternative models, but you are a loooong way from that, given your single personal experience.

I may be a long way from this yes, but there is differences between digital sources and I am not sure I have seen scientific explanations on this... I can eaily hear difference between my CD player and Squeezebox going into the same dac, very easily... and it's the same bits.... so what am I missing?

 

[shadyJ]

I may be a long way from this yes, but there is differences between digital sources and I am not sure I have seen scientific explanations on this... I can eaily hear difference between my CD player and Squeezebox going into the same dac, very easily... and it's the same bits.... so what am I missing?

What you are missing is controlled test conditions. Removing variables so that result scan be repeatable. Your own knowledge is a variable that has to be removed because it influences the result.

 

[haraldo]

What you are missing is controlled test conditions. Removing variables so that result scan be repeatable. Your own knowledge is a variable that has to be removed because it influences the result.

I am not sure how this is supported by tests....
My squeezebox works best to the dac with optical cable
My CD player works best to the dac with spdif cable
Squeezebox sounds less "harsh" than CD player
- I have no idea why but I have repeated this many times and each time I always end up with the same preference being as objective as possible, it's what musically works best

I have no idea how this would be measured???????
So how could I make this into a repeatable test setup?

Again, bits are not bits.....

 

[haraldo]

Your tests at home will be the same. You will probably 'hear a difference' because you are including your eyes in the testing procedure.

And glad to hear you are doing well. Someday I hope to visit Norway.

Here is view from veranda last morning

 

[shadyJ]

I am not sure how this is supported by tests....
My squeezebox works best to the dac with optical cable
My CD player works best to the dac with spdif cable
- I have no idea why but I have repeated this many times and each time I always end up with the same preference being as objective as possible, it's what musically works best

I have no idea how this would be measured???????
So how could I make this into a repeatbele test setup?

How do you know there isn't some signal processing going on in either unit? How do you know the music files are exactly the same? First you have to make sure the recording is the same. You have to compare the digital files to see if there are any differences. Then you have to record the output signals from the different processors to make sure that the units aren't doing additional processing. Then, to be sure it isn't in your imagination, you have to have a way of comparing sources when you don't know which is playing, and something to record your results against the actual test conditions. My hunch is that file encoding parameters could cause the differences you are hearing.

 

[haraldo]

How do you know there isn't some signal processing going on in either unit? How do you know the music files are exactly the same? First you have to make sure the recording is the same. You have to compare the digital files to see if there are any differences. Then you have to record the output signals from the different processors to make sure that the units aren't doing additional processing. Then, to be sure it isn't in your imagination, you have to have a way of comparing sources when you don't know which is playing, and something to record your results against the actual test conditions. My hunch is that file encoding parameters could cause the differences you are hearing.

it is very important points because there are very many steps we don't have control on....
- I use Exact Audio Copy to rip music to flac
- I am now doing a re rip of everything to flac uncompressed to make sure there is mininal processing
- There is still some things going on in the ripper and if accuraterip tells it's ok it probably is, but maybe not?
- There is always some processing going on in the logitech media server and the squeezebox, there is noise from the network, nosie from the power supply, how does that affect it all?
- There is a lot of things that can alter the signal, even if it being digtal......

I guess you can never be 100% sure that the CD you are playing is the same signal as what you are playing through a streamed device, and especially if you use a streaming service like tidal

But what I'd really like to find out, best practice on how to get maximum musical pleasure out of a digital source, whether it be a cd player or a streamer with files locally. Jogn Darko now suggests CD players are better maybe because they have less induced noise because they don't need network functionality (he said that in review of Hegel Mohikan)

So is that somewhere along in the sreamer the digital stream is affected audibly by the network functions?
(In my case streamer is better than legacy CD player)

 

[shadyJ]

it is very important points because there are very many steps we don't have control on....
- I use Exact Audio Copy to rip music to flac
- I am now doing a re rip of everything to flac uncompressed to make sure there is mininal processing
- There is still some things going on in the ripper and if accuraterip tells it's ok it probably is, but maybe not?
- There is always some processing going on in the logitech media server and the squeezebox, there is noise from the network, nosie from the power supply, how does that affect it all?
- There is a lot of things that can alter the signal, even if it being digtal......

I guess you can never be 100% sure that the CD you are playing is the same signal as what you are playing through a streamed device, and especially if you use a streaming service like tidal

But what I'd really like to find out, best practice on how to get maximum musical pleasure out of a digital source, whether it be a cd player or a streamer with files locally. Jogn Darko now suggests CD players are better maybe because they have less induced noise because they don't need network functionality (he said that in review of Hegel Mohikan)

So is that somewhere along in the sreamer the digital stream is affected audibly by the network functions?
(In my case streamer is better than legacy CD player)

There are ways to compare the files as well as the device output signals. I don't have time to get into all of that now, but you could find out with a little bit of googling. As for network functions reducing the fidelity of a source player compared to a CD player, I strongly doubt that.

 

[haraldo]

There are ways to compare the files as well as the device output signals. I don't have time to get into all of that now, but you could find out with a little bit of googling. As for network functions reducing the fidelity of a source player compared to a CD player, I strongly doubt that.

Thx but.... when I come to think about it .... every single streamer and / or networked player I ever auditioned do have some sort og "glare" attached to it, it is something that should not be there that makes the music sound less like real genuine music. I also auditioned the Auralic Aries G2 streamer and dac with external Leo clock at $30K and it does not convince me because there are some very strange unmusical artifacts that should not be there ... is that the network functions of the streamer, how come a $30K streamer sounds synthetic?

When I look back in time, all the best demos I evern been to has always been with CD players, never ever with a styreamer... I have never in my life been fully happy with a demo when there is a streamer. It is not a placebo thing, it is something I remember now, looking back in time, after reading John Darko's review of Hegel Mohikan.

I am not sure what is the available research that high frequency artifacts and noise related to network function can affect the digital stream.... maybe I am crazy.... I have never found anytthing reliable via google on this.

But I am starting to believe that a muic streamer only has a place where you want convenicence, when you want top fidelity, you may need to look elsewhere ... yes, people call me crazy, but I just want good music

 

[lovinthehd]

The only logical explanation is something is changing in you rather than the parlor tricks. Your testing method is rather meaningless, though. Maybe you should just buy the stuff and be happy with it. Maybe Ted Denney has branched out to europe...

 

[shadyJ]

Thx but.... when I come to think about it .... every single streamer and / or networked player I ever auditioned do have some sort og "glare" attached to it, it is something that should not be there that makes the music sound less like real genuine music. I also auditioned the Auralic Aries G2 streamer and dac with external Leo clock at $30K and it does not convince me because there are some very strange unmusical artifacts that should not be there ... is that the network functions of the streamer, how come a $30K streamer sounds synthetic?

When I look back in time, all the best demos I evern been to has always been with CD players, never ever with a styreamer... I have never in my life been fully happy with a demo when there is a streamer. It is not a placebo thing, it is something I remember now, looking back in time, after reading John Darko's review of Hegel Mohikan.

B

There is no way a streamer and DAC can justify a $30k price tag unless the chassis is made from gold. I wouldn't assume that just because its expensive that it is well-engineered. As for John Darko's review, it is irrelevant. Unless he published his findings in a peer-reviewed journal like the JEAS or an IEEE journal, I wouldn't pay attention to it. He can say anything he wants, because he isn't worried about being fact-checked by qualified experts.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Hegel Mohikan CD Player $5000.00
Hegel Music Systems, PB26, Blindern, 0314 Oslo, Norway

haraldo, do you really think it is worth that much with today's technology?

 

[Beave]

Must.Resist.Posting.A.Rant.

 

[haraldo]

There is no way a streamer and DAC can justify a $30k price tag unless the chassis is made from gold. I wouldn't assume that just because its expensive that it is well-engineered. As for John Darko's review, it is irrelevant. Unless he published his findings in a peer-reviewed journal like the JEAS or an IEEE journal, I wouldn't pay attention to it. He can say anything he wants, because he isn't worried about being fact-checked by qualified experts.

I am very open minded and try to see if it makes a difference... I am, however not convinced that the $30K streamer/dac/clock combo is better than a simple player connected to a Benchmark DAC, I have heard a simple combo of an Audionet CD player and a Benchmark DAC possibly outperform that $30 Auralic digital source. (but I can't say for sure)

 

[haraldo]

Hegel Mohikan CD Player $5000.00
Hegel Music Systems, PB26, Blindern, 0314 Oslo, Norway

haraldo, do you really think it is worth that much with today's technology?

I don't think Hegel is overpriced, remember that they do have a significant development facility in Norway, and it's not for free to develop what they do in this country. Remember also that when they made Airplay available they made their own implementation (in the H590 amplifier) because they believe they could make it sound better and supposedly they did.

When I am in Oslo I am "just around the corner" from Hegel facilities, I thought about the possibility to pay them a visit.

 

[haraldo]

The only logical explanation is something is changing in you rather than the parlor tricks. Your testing method is rather meaningless, though. Maybe you should just buy the stuff and be happy with it. Maybe Ted Denney has branched out to europe...

Testing by listening to music and see what you like and enjoy is meaningless???
The point of all of this is to have nice music......

I agree that we sholuld try to quantify by metrics, but you can't measure an experience.....

 

[lovinthehd]

Testing by listening to music and see what you like and enjoy is meaningless???
The point of all of this is to have nice music......

I agree that we sholuld try to quantify by metrics, but you can't measure an experience.....

For yourself and your own purposes this informal listening test is probably fine, but your test/report really means nothing to others particularly due it not really being a comparison of anything in a meaningful test but rather your report of an aural "experience" in your local hi fi store with some goofy products. I (and many others) don't put much stock into such anecdotal experiences let alone the efficacy of such products. Let alone having this odd shopping experience translate into this bits aren't bits thing. Am I remembering correctly that you claim to hear the difference between FLAC and WAV files or am I thinking of another golden ear?

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Here is view from veranda last morning
View attachment 29006

Absolutely beautiful!

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I don't think Hegel is overpriced, remember that they do have a significant development facility in Norway, and it's not for free to develop what they do in this country. Remember also that when they made Airplay available they made their own implementation (in the H590 amplifier) because they believe they could make it sound better and supposedly they did.

When I am in Oslo I am "just around the corner" from Hegel facilities, I thought about the possibility to pay them a visit.

You should visit their facility and then ask them why their products have to be so expensive.

 

[haraldo]

You should visit their facility and then ask them why their products have to be so expensive.

I don't have to visit them to answer the question, Norwegians are the only ones that can go to Switzerland thinking it's not expensive, we live in one of the most expensive countries in the world which means that products being developed here unfortunately becomes expensive. Look to any Swiss made products and they will be expensive.

I would rather have a product hand made in Norway or Switzerland by dedicated engineers than something made by children in South Korea or China ...