Consumer Advisory:Emotiva

[highfigh]

Unlike most types of home entertainment equipment where circuitry, manufacturing & technology improvements mean that you're getting more for your money than ever before, speakers now cost much more (and give much less) than in the past. I know that price increases are coming april 1st for Klipsch's "Heritage" line(exact reproductions of vintage 1950's & 1960's models). Whether there will also be imminent price increases for the "Reference" line is unknown, but i couldn't risk it. As I may have explained many posts back, I'm also taking advantage of the fact that my state is (for now) 1 of only 19 states that does not have an internet tax (I.E. coercing merchants with no store, warehouse or sales office in the customer's state to collect tax). If I were to wait, and my state would opt to enact an internet tax, the sales tax on this speaker system would have been $670. A definite deterrent again the purchase of non-essential luxury goods. And add in possible price increases from Klipsch. Now was the time to act.

The only reason Klipsch re-issued the Heritage line is because so many people are looking for vintage equipment and are willing to pay a premium, as if that was some kind of Golden Age of Audio. Look at the Heresy- the rated frequency response is now 58-20KHZ, +/- 4dB. The original spec showed 50-17KHz, IIRC, but I don't remember if it they included +/- 3db, or 4dB- either way, that's not legendary. They sound good for some music but definitely not for all. I had someone call to ask if I could check a pair out because he thought they sounded dull- I ran pink noise through and used an RTA to see if they had any inherent issues- if 20KHz was the goal when they were designed (it wasn't), there was definitely an inherent issue- they don't do 20KHz. They did just what the label showed. The thing to remember is that they were designed in 1957 and the other equipment available at that time performed about as well as FM radio- 30Hz-15KHz, +/- 3dB with the added benefit of the design community and all of the experts thinking that was good enough. It's OK, as long as you're not comparing it with speakers that do better at both ends and the response is flatter.

I don't dislike all Klipsch, but I have never been a big fan of the Heresy.

I haven't heard a pair of the larger Klipsch speakers in a long time- they definitely had a sound that allowed them to make listening to music different from small speakers- the amount of air they move has a lot to do with it. I had a pair of Electrovoice 30 woofers and they did the same kind of thing.

WRT your comments about speakers being worse- not correct, by a long shot. Modern technology, manufacturing techniques and materials make it possible to create speakers that blow old ones out of the water.

 

[PhilCohen]

Well, Emo is museum grade and Monoprice is K-Mart grade.

Duh.

By "Museum Grade". I mean buying something to store in pristine condition, not to use it unless it becomes neccessary. And do Emotiva's lower priced competitos have XLR inputs? Probably not.

 

[R.Elder]

They are very nice but last I looked they didn’t have line balanced inputs.
https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/monoprice-monolith-7-channel-amplifier-review

 

[Alex2507]

dusts

Oh those dirty little dusts! LOL

Keeping anything clean is nothing but work

By "Museum Grade". I mean buying something to store in pristine condition, not to use it unless it becomes neccessary. And do Emotiva's lower priced competitos have XLR inputs? Probably not.

Click on the link and look at the pic's.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=14566

I believe ADTG about the build quality too.
.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

do Emotiva's lower priced competitos have XLR inputs?

Alex beat me to it, but the $1600 Monolith has Balanced XLR.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

By "Museum Grade". I mean buying something to store in pristine condition, not to use it unless it becomes neccessary.

It is understandable.

If I find a Yamaha CX-A5100 on sale for $1,000, I would buy another one as "museum grade" too.

 

[ryanosaur]

Alex beat me to it, but the $1600 Monolith has Balanced XLR.

I thought it was determined that the XLRs on the Monolith Amps were not balanced. Would love to have confirmation, either way!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I thought it was determined that the XLRs on the Monolith Amps were not balanced. Would love to have confirmation, either way!

It’s not fully balanced (input to output). But like the Yamaha MX-A5000 amp, it has balanced XLR connectors. As Gene’s measurements showed, The Balanced connectors achieved a 3dB improvement in SNR compared to the RCA Unbalanced connectors in the Yamaha amp.

 

[KEW]

That is a killer setup. One thing I would note is that I am not sure what a R-115SE could contribute to a setup like that. I hope you are using a really low crossover frequency, because the RF-7s will be so much more capable in midbass, and will have so much more to offer than that sub. As for the center speaker, the ultimate would have been another RF-7. For the RC-64 design, make sure you are sitting directly ahead of that center. It is bound to have some real nulls off to the sides.

LOL, you're not kidding about the bass output of the RF7, maybe I am reading between the lines too freely, but the way I read Mark Henninger's review is that after room gain the RF-7's had more bass than his room could deal with and he ended up crossing them to a subwoofer at 80Hz to help tone them down!!!
https://www.avsforum.com/review-klipsch-rf-7-iii-floorstanding-speakers-review/
Sounds like the RF-7's are ideally suited to a pretty large room!


I think of the RF-7's as a flagship model of sorts, so am inclined to agree that I would expect an extremely capable sub to be paired with it; but at the same time, I did want to point out that compared to most Klipsch subwoofers, the R-115se's are not bad! Brent Butterworth was impressed that they represented the rare subwoofer made by a mainstream speaker company that did not totally embarrass itself! Review with CEA data:
https://hometheaterreview.com/klipsch-r-115sw-subwoofer-reviewed/

It is nice to see Klipsch offering a competent subwoofer at a reasonable price for those that want the color coordinated "copper experience"!

 

[PhilCohen]

Museum Grade Full-size (49” x 18” x 14”) surround speakers for 5.1 music?

I have Museum Grade RBH SX-T2/R Reference Towers (62” x 20” x 13”) for 5.10.4 music (DTS-NeuralX).

In addition to playing 5.1 surround mixes, I'm also playing SACD's with vintage 4.0 "Quadraphonic" mixes. Since the center chanel speaker and subwoofer aren't in use when playing these 4.0 mixes, I must have rear speakers that can reproduce deep bass, hence full sized speakers in the rear. And, as I emphasized before, "Museum Grade" means buying duplicate/redundant things to keep in pristine condition...to use them only if my existing equipment breaks down and can no longer be repaired. I hope you now understand what I mean by "Museum Grade Condition". Anyhow, in the 1980's, the Yuppies had a slogan "You can have it all", but a few years ago, somebody posted a joke (from a comedian) on an internet forum, and it says "You can't have everything. Where would you put it?" I'm still grappling with which one of those statements is true...or closer to the truth.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I hope you now understand what I mean by "Museum Grade Condition"

Buying a duplicate of the AVR/AVP you love in case your current AVR/AVP fails in the future?

I feel the same way with my current Yamaha CX-A5100 AVP. If I could find a brand new CX-A5100 or CX-A5200 on clearance, I would buy one as a duplicate to keep in brand new condition just in case I need one.

So I assume you found a duplicate on clearance or great deal?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Since the center chanel speaker and subwoofer aren't in use when playing these 4.0 mixes, I must have rear speakers that can reproduce deep bass, hence full sized speakers in the rear.

You are referring to "Double Bass" or "LFE+Main" where the bass is sent to the MAIN FRONT L/R speakers?

The problem is that the bass is only sent to the FRONT main speakers, not the surround speakers. At least that's how I've seen it in the past.

For 4Ch and 5Ch SACD DSD mixes, I think the bass is sent to the Front 2 speakers, not the rear 2 speakers. Again, that's how I've seen it. I've owned full-range surround speakers for a long time. The full-range rear speakers don't get much subwoofer bass because that's how most sound engineers mixed the tracks - probably assuming most people don't have full-range surrounds.

 

[PhilCohen]

Buying a duplicate of the AVR/AVP you love in case your current AVR/AVP fails in the future?

I feel the same way with my current Yamaha CX-A5100 AVP. If I could find a brand new CX-A5100 or CX-A5200 on clearance, I would buy one as a duplicate to keep in brand new condition just in case I need one.

So I assume you found a duplicate on clearance or great deal?

I'm presently using an Integra DHC 9.9 A/V preamplifier. My "Museum Grade" A/V preamplifier is an Integra DRC R1.1 . It has many features that my older(10 years old) Integra doesn't have. Unfortunately, it's internet connectivity is not wireless, and my Modem/Router(which does both wireless & Ethernet) is in another room. Still, most of the DRC R 1.1's internet features involve music rental/streaming, which I have no interest in. I'm a collector of what the music industry calls "Physical Product".

 

[PhilCohen]

You are referring to "Double Bass" or "LFE+Main" where the bass is sent to the MAIN FRONT L/R speakers?

The problem is that the bass is only sent to the FRONT main speakers, not the surround speakers. At least that's how I've seen it in the past.

For 4Ch and 5Ch SACD DSD mixes, I think the bass is sent to the Front 2 speakers, not the rear 2 speakers. Again, that's how I've seen it. I've owned full-range surround speakers for a long time. The full-range rear speakers don't get much subwoofer bass because that's how most sound engineers mixed the tracks - probably assuming most people don't have full-range surrounds.

When I've encountered vintage Quadraphonic mixes on SACD, there have been two types of presentation:

Pure 4.0 where the center channel & subwoofer channels are not used

4.0 modified for 5.1 Where bass content is routed to the sub, and sounds heard on both the front left & front right are routed to the center channel.

I've encountered both approaches on SACD titles released by Sony in Japan.

On the pure 4.0 SACD's , there may indeed be some low frequency content on the rear channels.

 

[PhilCohen]

The only reason Klipsch re-issued the Heritage line is because so many people are looking for vintage equipment and are willing to pay a premium, as if that was some kind of Golden Age of Audio. Look at the Heresy- the rated frequency response is now 58-20KHZ, +/- 4dB. The original spec showed 50-17KHz, IIRC, but I don't remember if it they included +/- 3db, or 4dB- either way, that's not legendary. They sound good for some music but definitely not for all. I had someone call to ask if I could check a pair out because he thought they sounded dull- I ran pink noise through and used an RTA to see if they had any inherent issues- if 20KHz was the goal when they were designed (it wasn't), there was definitely an inherent issue- they don't do 20KHz. They did just what the label showed. The thing to remember is that they were designed in 1957 and the other equipment available at that time performed about as well as FM radio- 30Hz-15KHz, +/- 3dB with the added benefit of the design community and all of the experts thinking that was good enough. It's OK, as long as you're not comparing it with speakers that do better at both ends and the response is flatter.

I don't dislike all Klipsch, but I have never been a big fan of the Heresy.

I haven't heard a pair of the larger Klipsch speakers in a long time- they definitely had a sound that allowed them to make listening to music different from small speakers- the amount of air they move has a lot to do with it. I had a pair of Electrovoice 30 woofers and they did the same kind of thing.

WRT your comments about speakers being worse- not correct, by a long shot. Modern technology, manufacturing techniques and materials make it possible to create speakers that blow old ones out of the water.

As for my comment that speakers offer less value for the dollar than in the past, You'll note that at each specific price point that speaker manufacturers are giving the consumer smaller woofers than in the past. A representative of JBL told me that since floorstanding speakers would now be used with a subwoofer, that this was a "winning combination" (I.E. that could still provide satisfactory low frequency output despite the smaller woofers in the floorstanding speakers), and that the smaller woofers would make the floorstanding speakers more slender and "Spouse Friendly". There's no question that JBL is giving consumers less value per dollar than in the past. And as for their reissues of their "Classic" models, they are priced roughly TEN TIMES the price of the originals.

 

[highfigh]

As for my comment that speakers offer less value for the dollar than in the past, You'll note that at each specific price point that speaker manufacturers are giving the consumer smaller woofers than in the past. A representative of JBL told me that since floorstanding speakers would now be used with a subwoofer, that this was a "winning combination" (I.E. that could still provide satisfactory low frequency output despite the smaller woofers in the floorstanding speakers), and that the smaller woofers would make the floorstanding speakers more slender and "Spouse Friendly". There's no question that JBL is giving consumers less value per dollar than in the past. And as for their reissues of their "Classic" models, they are priced roughly TEN TIMES the price of the originals.

Big doesn't equal better, or even good. I was selling audio in '78 and most speakers didn't go much below 40Hz, if at all. Some did and they weren't cheap, but most didn't. Even with a 15" woofer, it was early days for computer modelling and a common reaction to hearing those was "Um, there's something odd about the sound". Yeah, they were tuned better than the crap that had come out before. Midrange was honky, treble was screetchy and the sound beamed badly, woofers were crossed over well above their useful range and it wasn't rare that you could find four-way speakers with terribly-designed crossovers.

Fast forward a few years and some companies, like JBL, came out with subwoofers for the consumer crowd. These didn't have an amplifier, either. Then, Sony and a few other Japanese brands came out with their first models and they were pretty crappy. Then, speakers started to produce actual bass frequencies on their own, with one or two smaller woofers, the crossovers became better and the days of $129/pr 12" three-way speakers were numbered.

Speaker manufacturers are happy to sell subwoofers- they move more units and make more money. Why is that hard to see? As far as smaller woofers- wives and interior detonators don't want to see speakers. They don't give a rat's butt about sound quality, they just don't want speakers to screw up their interior designs.

You can't use 1970s/1980s dollars to compare to today's speakers.