Monolith by Monoprice HTP-1 16 Channel Dolby Atmos & DTS:X Home Theater Processor w/Dirac & Alexa Compatibility

[AcuDefTechGuy]

OK post storm coming ...
So on another site I read a technical discussion pertaining to room correction. My takeaway was that in spite of how much I've spent on very hi res music streaming and processing once I switch on the room correction in the proc all those delightful bits and sample rates and word lengths go out the window and my out put basically defaults to cd quality. The reason has something to do with the chips doing the correction are not up to the job. ' a bit disconcerting.
Also I have understood that the most important correction might be bass (system specific) which sort of points to Dirac live and if that includes the Dirac bass management module.
Further if bass might be the most significant problem wouldn't a solution like DSpeaker Anti Node be the best solution beyond proper placement of bass devices

1. Like everything else, some people like Room Correction (RC) and some don't. I've never cared for RC (Audyssey XT32, YPAO, ARC, DIRAC, Lyngdorf) because I never thought it improved the Sound. If I were getting the HTP-1 or ATP-16, I would leave the DIRAC off.

2. The only EQ I use is the manual Parametric EQ (PEQ) for the Subwoofers. I don't mess with anything above 100Hz.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well Thetas Procs (Casablanca) are future proof, with them you can take an old chassis and upgrade with any number of new circuit boards several of which cost more than this unit alone. ....so there you have it.

I don't know. Anyone who buys a $20K AVP can probably buy one every year.

But I think the people buying the $4-5K AVPs are in a different tax bracket.

 

[Verdinut]

Maybe @M Code can confirm the cost of DIRAC.

It may be true, but the $100 cost of Dirac seems really low.

See Post #23 of following thread:

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/monolith-by-monoprice-htp-1-16-channel-dolby-atmos-dts-x-home-theater-processor-w-dirac-alexa-compatibility.113559/page-2#post-1291265

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

See Post #23 of following thread:

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/monolith-by-monoprice-htp-1-16-channel-dolby-atmos-dts-x-home-theater-processor-w-dirac-alexa-compatibility.113559/page-2#post-1291265

I saw that post weeks ago, but was looking for a confirmation from M Code.

I wonder if the cost ($100 per unit or different) is the same if they make 1,000 units vs 100,000 units.

 

[M Code]

Maybe @M Code can confirm the cost of DIRAC.

It may be true, but the $100 cost of Dirac seems really low.

When calculating the cost of Dirac U need to consider (2) parts, 1st is the additive cost of enough DSP horsepower (hardware) to process Dirac and 2nd the software royalty cost. Dirac Live in its multi-channel format requires significant DSP horsepower and to my knowledge the present multi-channel products incorporating Dirac Live are using Analog Devices Sharc processors... But note that the DSP processors are also doing the Dolby Atmos, DTS-EX, Logic 7, bass management, the subject multi-channel product may use up to (4) of the Sharc processors. Note that the cost of Sharc DSPs is very dependent upon unit volume, its cost can vary widely if the unit volume is in the 00s' vs 000s'. But the most expensive cost of Dirac is the royalty per unit and # of channels. Since, as of now multi-channel Dirac is used only in higher-end products that have low unit sales volume, the royalty cost per unit is expensive. Keep in mind that the $ pricing we are discussing are @ the prime FOB cost level and will be multipled 3X or 4X up to the final retail price.

In conclusion...
The $100 is on the high side...
If U consider the incremental, additional DSP Sharc cost as U need so much DSP horsepower just for the basic Dolby, DTS surround/audio modes. The biggest $ would be the royalty cost, and this can vary by up to 250% depending upon # of units sold and their respective # of processing channels.

Just my $0.02...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

When calculating the cost of Dirac U need to consider (2) parts, 1st is the additive cost of enough DSP horsepower (hardware) to process Dirac and 2nd the software royalty cost. Dirac Live in its multi-channel format requires significant DSP horsepower and to my knowledge the present multi-channel products incorporating Dirac Live are using Analog Devices Sharc processors... But note that the DSP processors are also doing the Dolby Atmos, DTS-EX, Logic 7, bass management, the subject multi-channel product may use up to (4) of the Sharc processors. Note that the cost of Sharc DSPs is very dependent upon unit volume, its cost can vary widely if the unit volume is in the 00s' vs 000s'. But the most expensive cost of Dirac is the royalty per unit and # of channels. Since, as of now multi-channel Dirac is used only in higher-end products that have low unit sales volume, the royalty cost per unit is expensive. Keep in mind that the $ pricing we are discussing are @ the prime FOB cost level and will be multipled 3X or 4X up to the final retail price.

In conclusion...
The $100 is on the high side...
If U consider the incremental, additional DSP Sharc cost as U need so much DSP horsepower just for the basic Dolby, DTS surround/audio modes. The biggest $ would be the royalty cost, and this can vary by up to 250% depending upon # of units sold and their respective # of processing channels.

Just my $0.02...

So Dirac actual manufacturing cost could total (royalty and incremental) $100-$250 per unit and final retail could be $500-$1000 per unit?

And if they didn’t use Dirac or any other room correction, retail price could be $500-$1000 less per unit?

 

[M Code]

So Dirac actual manufacturing cost could total (royalty and incremental) $100-$250 per unit and final retail could be $500-$1000 per unit?

And if they didn’t use Dirac or any other room correction, retail price could be $500-$1000 less per unit?

As I posted... The cost of Dirac is largely dependent upon unit sales volume & # of processing channels, considering the low sales volume of high-end components $100 per unit is a max. Calculating this cost increment into the final selling price depends upon each brand's internal requirements for ROI, but for high-end separate A/Vcomponents this is very significant. However 1 should note the total $ cost for developing an AVR or A/V component is very significant and well into $0,000,000.

For a reference point, as many are aware we have developed/sourced AVRs for certain major brands here are some basic numbers for an AVR project that we did a few years back....
Total tooling/development $ budget was $2,200,000 for the AVR platform, derived (3) models from the platform, total sales quantity sold was 47,000 equating to an amortization of $46 per unit just to recover the tooling/development costs.

Just my $0.02...

 

[Matthew J Poes]

IIRC, in another thread, @Matthew J Poes mentioned that the addition of Dirac cost about $100.

The full version. It comes with a bandwidth limited version that only works in the bass. Then upgrading to the full version is usually around $100.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

So Dirac actual manufacturing cost could total (royalty and incremental) $100-$250 per unit and final retail could be $500-$1000 per unit?

And if they didn’t use Dirac or any other room correction, retail price could be $500-$1000 less per unit?

I don’t think that is necessarily true. I don’t really know exactly how much cost it adds. I know a few companies who build processors and didn’t use Dirac indicated to me that it only added a small cost to the unit. Maybe about $100. These are low margin companies so maybe a company like D&M would mark up more. Not $1000.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don’t think that is necessarily true. I don’t really know exactly how much cost it adds. I know a few companies who build processors and didn’t use Dirac indicated to me that it only added a small cost to the unit. Maybe about $100. These are low margin companies so maybe a company like D&M would mark up more. Not $1000.

I don’t understand why it seems like only expensive AVP get Dirac if the total cost is only $100 per unit. Couldn’t the manufacturers make up this $100 easily?

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I don’t understand why it seems like only expensive AVP get Dirac if the total cost is only $100 per unit. Couldn’t the manufacturers make up this $100 easily?

I know some folks I can ask, but I have my own opinion.

First, it still adds a lot of cost and the market research suggests that most customers don’t use or want sophisticated room correction. We are a niche. Market research on AV receiver use found most people don’t even set them up, never run the automatic setup procedure. Why add significant cost for a feature only a small fraction of the customer base wants?

Second, Dirac is harder to use that other correction systems. I think it works better than many others, but being hard to use is a real problem. ARC used to be the same way. People who used it loved it, but it was hard to use and many people comaplained it setup problems.

Third, many big players have adopted what they have adopted, are probably under license, and won’t change. D&M probably won’t shift away from audyssey until that partnership falls apart. Pioneer/Onkyo believes their proprietary solution is adequate, as does Yamaha. Yes we know they are wrong, but I get why they think that. Onkyo really was made to look like they were caught with their pants down when the fake scandal arose over Audyssey resampling everything to 48khz. They had been marketing their products as HD quality and I think between the bad press and cost, it made sense to switch. Well....guess what...most implementations of Dirac also resample to 48khz. Why? Because it takes a ton more processing power to handle 96khz or 192khz and that would increase the cost too much. Dirac doesn’t even know if any current receivers can do it, they aren’t sure that Datasat operates that way.

That last point is especially vexing for me. Customers are hung up on features that don’t matter at the expense of features that do. Room correction itself falls into that category, even though I think it is a worthy feature. It’s often used as a bandaid to fix a larger problem it can’t fix. Most consumers don’t take the time to setup their systems correctly in the first place. Most consumers don’t have speakers of sufficient quality. Most people’s rooms are suboptimal. Those three facts provide room correction with a poor pallet on which to work. There will never be a totally automated fix for this either. MIMO correction may help, it can at least fix the acoustics, but it will never change where someone or the speakers or improve the quality of the speakers.

A lot of consumers would benefit from a) buying better speakers including use or multiple subs, b) spending more time optimizing the basic setup including both the bass management settings and speaker placement, c) at least minimally treating the room, and then d) worrying about room correction.

All of that makes a far bigger difference in the perception of good sound (in that order) than does worrying about what sampling rate the system operates at (which itself at least matters as compared to dumb things like speaker wire and thermonuclear isolation pods).

 

[mars2k]

I don't know. Anyone who buys a $20K AVP can probably buy one every year.

But I think the people buying the $4-5K AVPs are in a different tax bracket.

Point taken ...however ....to clarify. I think the original question was more along the line of "why can't a lower priced model be future proof?" My response was essentially "future proof is more expensive" your point would be more along the lines of diminishing returns vs wallet size....I would take the larger wallet every time if I could
Also, a really good gear head ..could buy an older Theta chassis and do some judicious upgrades to get something approximating current spec without paying the "Brand New" premium.

BTW, spoke to my ATI insider who said...."Monolith HTP-1 is where all the ATI dev is going and the ATI proc may not hit the shelves until much much late (if at all)"

 

[mars2k]

I don’t understand why it seems like only expensive AVP get Dirac if the total cost is only $100 per unit. Couldn’t the manufacturers make up this $100 easily?

Well... when a company builds and markets a product its pretty much basic accounting that when it comes to retail price its 4 X parts cost ...otherwise no profits. So buying in Dirac may cost $100 for them to buy then they still have to design it in, develop its use in their product, manufacture it, distribute it, and sell it to retailers who then have to sell it to the public and everyone has to make enough money to eat. But then I'm no business major so for what its worth...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well... when a company builds and markets a product its pretty much basic accounting that when it comes to retail price its 4 X parts cost ...otherwise no profits. So buying in Dirac may cost $100 for them to buy then they still have to design it in, develop its use in their product, manufacture it, distribute it, and sell it to retailers who then have to sell it to the public and everyone has to make enough money to eat. But then I'm no business major so for what its worth...

4 x $100 parts cost is still only $400.

It seems like if people (not me) want Dirac, they have to pay at least $2.5K on AVPs.

I think anyone who wants Dirac would be more than willing to pay an extra $400.

As for people like me who couldn't care less about Dirac, we wouldn't mind saving $400.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Point taken ...however ....to clarify. I think the original question was more along the line of "why can't a lower priced model be future proof?" My response was essentially "future proof is more expensive" your point would be more along the lines of diminishing returns vs wallet size....I would take the larger wallet every time if I could
Also, a really good gear head ..could buy an older Theta chassis and do some judicious upgrades to get something approximating current spec without paying the "Brand New" premium.

BTW, spoke to my ATI insider who said...."Monolith HTP-1 is where all the ATI dev is going and the ATI proc may not hit the shelves until much much late (if at all)"

Maybe the question is, will the $4K Monolith HTP-1 be future proof/Modular?

Could ATI/DataSat replace the Video Circuit Board and Audio Circuit Board for future AV formats (HDMI-X, Dolby ATMOS-X)?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

At any rate, the $4K Monolith HTP-1 sure looks a lot better than the $6K NAD pre-pro.

 

[Phase 2]

A lot of money for a processor that'll be outdated in a couple years, 8K out now.

 

[Verdinut]

My response was essentially "future proof is more expensive" your point would be more along the lines of diminishing returns vs wallet size....I would take the larger wallet every time if I could
"

Even expensive high-end gear is not future proof. There are too many gadgets and features being added almost every year, so paying more doesn't mean a guaranty of the product being future proof.
Paying for expensive boutique A/V gear is following the path of diminishing returns.

 

[PENG]

A lot of money for a processor that'll be outdated in a couple years, 8K out now.

Agreed. Even the so called modular approach can only help to a point. Things are changing too much, too fast..

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

A lot of money for a processor that'll be outdated in a couple years, 8K out now.

Yeah. I think when 4K was starting to come out, I recall some people were saying they had no interest in 4K. Now everything is pretty much 4K.

Now that 8K is in the early phase, I hear the same kind of talk - they don't care about 8K.

So I wonder if in 5 years everything will be 8K and all these $5K - $10K pre-pros and 4K Projectors will be outdated again.

I sure would be very reluctant to spend $4,000 on any 4K Pre-pros now.