Tube Amps ........ No Love ?

KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
ski, again, I understand when you speak of 'ideal' so perhaps the euphoric, nostalgic whatever the description remains inside me .............. I still love vinyl as well !
I think I speak for most people here when I say "If you've got a penchant for tubes and the bucks to put behind it, go for it!"
I think it is pretty cool to see high quality tube gear being used in a quality system.

Where we have no love is if you come on here and start espousing how you switched from a mainstream SS amp to a tube amp and realized "night and day" improvements. As has been mentioned, we consider it a crime to spend extra money for tube gear when it could go somewhere useful (like speakers).
But if you already have speakers that you are 100% satisfied and are in the enviable position to toss money at a tube amp, more power to you!

I did have a tube amp for a little while, but I hated the idea of having components that I know are gradually and steadily burning out without the ability to easily test them. I remember going with my dad to the drugstore quarterly to test the tubes from his power amp and preamp to make sure they all fell within specification. It is hard now to imagine a world where most drugstores had a testing machine on the floor and sold replacement tubes!
 
Dave Blount

Dave Blount

Junior Audioholic
Kurt,

For the record I love both camps (SS and Tube) and when done right they both can sound like heaven. So when you use the term 'we' I'm assuming you're the forum spokesman ?? sorry, I couldn't resist, just busting your stones a wee bit !

As for the tube testing and going 'out of spec' on a quarterly basis, pretty much an urban myth , especially when it comes to the small signal tubes used in preamp / line stages. There aren't enough hours in a years qtr to accomplish that even if you left you system on (not recommended) 24/7.

FWIW, my amplification in my kit is Rogue M-180's (tube) and a Plinius SA-102 (SS)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Kurt,

For the record I love both camps (SS and Tube) and when done right they both can sound like heaven. So when you use the term 'we' I'm assuming you're the forum spokesman ?? sorry, I couldn't resist, just busting your stones a wee bit !

As for the tube testing and going 'out of spec' on a quarterly basis, pretty much an urban myth , especially when it comes to the small signal tubes used in preamp / line stages. There aren't enough hours in a years qtr to accomplish that even if you left you system on (not recommended) 24/7.

FWIW, my amplification in my kit is Rogue M-180's (tube) and a Plinius SA-102 (SS)
Power amps definitely need to have bias adjusted as tubes age. Not difficult with the right gear.

I agree about the preamp stage as current through the tube is low. However the EF 86 voltage amp tubes were an absolute pain in the neck. All off a sudden you would start hearing a shuffling sound from one speaker and say "EF 86 again!"
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I get the nostalgia part and admit the glow of valves takes me back to my youth and my parents Stromberg Carlson Console that I loved to peek inside !

Ok, so you love rock & roll and your favorite band still uses tube guitar amps does that mean their music is 'pointless' ? ....... far from it !
Comparing amplifiers that are used for pro-ducing the sound with amplifiers that need to repro-duce the sound is futile. In the first amp, distortion is a major part of the desired sound envelope and if you want the recording to sound its best, the system needs to add as little as possible.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Thanks TLSGuy and Dave for the info on the pre-amp tubes. I really don't remember exactly which ones he tested when. I was pretty young (under 10). His pre and amp were Heathkit units, which he built. I really don't know if he knew much about electronics vs simply having the patience and attitude to build a kit. He may have grabbed them all or maybe just the amp tubes.
When he switched to stereo, he went Marantz/solid state. That was a big step up from his 12" full range driver mono system, but the mono system sounded awfully good for that point in time.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
So when you use the term 'we' I'm assuming you're the forum spokesman ?? sorry, I couldn't resist, just busting your stones a wee bit!
I believe I have read enough similar threads here to recognize the general consensus. Moreover, I have absolute confidence that were my statements very far off from the sentiments here, I would get duly corrected/educated!:oops::)
This is an audio forum after all!
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
Exactly. Tubes only sound better than solid state amps when they are being pushed into distortion. There a multiple different guitar amps with different tube configurations. You wouldn't use the same amp for heavy metal that you'd use for jazz because they sound different. When it comes to purposely inaccurate equipment in the audio world, you run into the same problem. A warm sounding speaker with a fat mid bass might sound good with classic rock, but veiled an loose with classical. A "one note wonder" subwoofer that has a 12dB gain at 40hz might sound good with electronic music or rap, but boomy and sloppy with jazz.

An accurate system will sound excellent no matter what you play on it. As someone who's choice of music requires me to listen to lower budget recordings often, I can also say a poorly recorded track will sound better on an accurate system than an inaccurate one. When it comes to inaccurate equipment, you're taking a gamble with the source jiving with the system. I've also never heard a colored system resolve the same amount of detail as an accurate one, even brightly colored. Coloration to sound results from the equipment failing to reproduce the same input as the signal, it's told to do one thing and it does something else.

As far as I'm concerned coloration is a failure on the equipments part and is completely undesirable, even if it does sound good sometimes. It wasn't recorded that way, and the artists and producers didn't intend for it to be heard that way.

Sent from my SM-G360T1 using Tapatalk
 
Doge

Doge

Junior Audioholic
Rather than a new thread, I'd like to see if this one can light up. I am interested in Tube amps. I like classic cars, and have two historical homes. Point being, the stats don't matter as much to me as the other stuff..
It may also be my application. These are for my work computer. I sit 3 -5 feet from my speakers, and often use a nice headset. 1/4 turn is about the most I've ever turned up the volume.
I have several different sources from ss amps and DACs to the tube setup. I often use the headset. Right now, my amp is gone, being replaced. It feels like days without coffee. Rather than listening to music - I'm on this forum. If it was here, I wouldn't be. .
MyDesk.jpg
 
Ridire Fáin

Ridire Fáin

Audioholic Intern
Well for the what its worth department. I have owned a pair VTL 450 mono-blocks (Main 2 channel) and venerable Anthem integrated One (Office 2 channel ). Not the new Paradigm stuff, the product I had was made by Sonic Frontiers.

I can parrot all the concerns expressed here.

Nonetheless, If one wants to take the plunge for what many consider their sonic benefit, here is my list of caveats, derived from owning such pieces.

(Echoing others) One, it is expensive to get into. Even the most entry level integrated gear starts at nearly $2K. You can buy one hell of an AV receiver or SS integrated for half or I dare say quarter of that cost. In the two channel realm there are a lot of outstanding integrateds that can be had for a little over $500.00.

Two, look out for the weasel pieces touting themselves as a tube design but are in fact hybrids. Tubes may be in the signal path from the preamp section, but usually they do next to nothing, and are for all intents and purposes are only there for looks. These are nothing more than a SS design with jacked up prices. I consider some of these pieces to be an rip off.

Three, be prepared to always be forking out considerable sums for their upkeep. This is the most painful part of owning tube gear that the sales folk do not warn you of. Average tube life is about 3 years. If you run your system more than 4 hours a day like I do. Their service life can be cut nearly in half. To get an idea how expensive this gets. The pair of MB 450 that I owned. Uses 16 power output tubes.Total minimum cost for stock Sovtek 6550we $34.95 ea., total cost to replace an set for this pair of mono-blocks was $559.20. It costs even more, if you do not want to stick with the factory tube and roll up to an KT88. Needless to say I no longer own the MB 450.

Four, Biasing is an pain in the ass. With heavy use it has to be done every 3 months at a minimum. 6 months on average. I would recommend designs that auto-bias. VTL, Balanced Audio Technology are a couple of manufactures that come to mind. The other option is to go with an design that uses an tube like the EL84, that can self correct for changes in grid voltages. My little Anthem Integrated used them for that very reason. It did not even have pots to set the bias with.

Five, stick with notable brands and dealers that will provide support for their product. A lot of the budget tube gear from China have had a number of quality issues. If anyone wants to get into them, I cannot stress enough the need to deal with manufactures that will take care of you after the sale. One of the issues, is sometimes when a tube blows, they often take out resistors and protection fuses that are designed to fail in order to protect the component's other parts from frying. If something trips, you want to be able to take it to someone and get it fixed.

(Echoing again) Six, IMHO, well engineered tube gear sounds like SS. Well engineered SS amps sound a lot like tubes. When I went to audition equipment I listened to a number of things. It was an toss up between, Audio Research, McIntosh, VTL, and BAT. I auditioned an BAT SS amp prior to the MB-450. The first thing my audio-buddy said of the MB-450 (Tube) was it sounded like the BAT (Solid State).

That for me sums up the Tube versus SS debate .
 
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Out-Of-Phase

Out-Of-Phase

Audioholic General
Dave, I used to own a tube preamp over 20 years ago. I sold it and went back to solid-state components. It was a Mikado463. ;)
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Well for the what its worth department. I have owned a pair VTL 450 mono-blocks (Main 2 channel) and venerable Anthem integrated One (Office 2 channel ). Not the new Paradigm stuff, the product I had was made by Sonic Frontiers.

I can parrot all the concerns expressed here.

Nonetheless, If one wants to take the plunge for what many consider their sonic benefit, here is my list of caveats, derived from owning such pieces.

(Echoing others) One, it is expensive to get into. Even the most entry level integrated gear starts at nearly $2K. You can buy one hell of an AV receiver or SS integrated for half or I dare say quarter of that cost. In the two channel realm there are a lot of outstanding integrateds that can be had for a little over $500.00.

Two, look out for the weasel pieces touting themselves as a tube design but are in fact hybrids. Tubes may be in the signal path from the preamp section, but usually they do next to nothing, and are for all intents and purposes are only there for looks. These are nothing more than a SS design with jacked up prices. I consider some of these pieces to be an rip off.

Three, be prepared to always be forking out considerable sums for their upkeep. This is the most painful part of owning tube gear that the sales folk do not warn you of. Average tube life is about 3 years. If you run your system more than 4 hours a day like I do. Their service life can be cut nearly in half. To get an idea how expensive this gets. The pair of MB 450 that I owned. Uses 16 power output tubes.Total minimum cost for stock Sovtek 6550we $34.95 ea., total cost to replace an set for this pair of mono-blocks was $559.20. It costs even more, if you do not want to stick with the factory tube and roll up to an KT88. Needless to say I no longer own the MB 450.

Four, Biasing is an pain in the ass. With heavy use it has to be done every 3 months at a minimum. 6 months on average. I would recommend designs that auto-bias. VTL, Balanced Audio Technology are a couple of manufactures that come to mind. The other option is to go with an design that uses an tube like the EL84, that can self correct for changes in grid voltages. My little Anthem Integrated used them for that very reason. It did not even have pots to set the bias with.

Five, stick with notable brands and dealers that will provide support for their product. A lot of the budget tube gear from China have had a number of quality issues. If anyone wants to get into them, I cannot stress enough the need to deal with manufactures that will take care of you after the sale. One of the issues, is sometimes when a tube blows, they often take out resistors and protection fuses that are designed to fail in order to protect the component's other parts from frying. If something trips, you want to be able to take it someone and get it fixed.

(Echoing again) Six, IMHO, well engineered tube gear sounds like SS. Well engineered SS amps sound a lot like tubes. When I went to audition equipment I listened to a number of things. It was an toss up between, Audio Research, McIntosh, VTL, and BAT. I auditioned an BAT SS amp prior to the MB-450. The first thing my audio-buddy said of the MB-450 (Tube) was it sounded like the BAT (Solid State).

That for me sums up the Tube versus SS debate .
Great post, @Ridire Fáin.
 
Out-Of-Phase

Out-Of-Phase

Audioholic General
My old preamp. Are you a fan of Conrad Johnson?
 
Out-Of-Phase

Out-Of-Phase

Audioholic General
Did you like it? Back in the day when I spent money on separates, I was talked into it (tubes over transistors) by the audiophile Hi-Fi store. It had a phono section as well.
 
Doge

Doge

Junior Audioholic
Who on this forum uses/likes Tube amps?
I read the points from @Ridire Fáin

This is my 2nd one. First being a hybrid MonoPrice "Pure Tube Amp" $330. I sit 3-4 feet (picture in post #28) and rarely crank beyond 80dBA.

I sent my Cary for repair and it took a while, but the customer service was excellent. They sent me a new unit. Best I can tell, it was not their or the amp's issue in the first place. I got to talk to the folks that built it, that tested it. That is worth a lot. My reasons other than an A-B sound comparison I prefer the tubes are aesthetic. I like I can swap and play around with tubes. I have some different pre-amp tubes on order (<$200). A full re-tube to cheap stuff could be as low as $200 to -Western Electrics NOS - I was tempted, but we bought a house instead.
Replacing the stock tubes ~$400 every 3 years - maybe - IF I spend 4 hours a day with it on does not concern me.
Biasing takes 5 min.

I do have a 26 year old ss TEAC that works just fine. I just get no emotion from it.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
Not tube, but kind of in the same realm and well off the reservation of prevailing amplifier orthodoxy...several of us (myself, @MrBoat, and @PENG I think) have built the Pass designed ACA. It's (kind of, sort of) an inexpensive ss equivalent of a 300B SET. Very similar in terms of power, inherent lack of crossover distortion, somewhat high output impedance, and fairly high amounts of low order nonlinear distortion. Also very SET-like in their kooky crystalline clarity. Fun kit.
 
Ridire Fáin

Ridire Fáin

Audioholic Intern
@Doge e. Greetings and Salutations.

Who on this forum uses/likes Tube amps?
I still have a soft-spot for tube gear. But space constraints in my listening room, as well as my playing habits do not make them a good investment. I do regret trading in the Anthem Integrated One. However, when we relocated to a different location it did not have enough gas to work in a large room with 20 foot ceilings.


Biasing takes 5 min.
Keep in mind on a Cary with only two 300b output tubes it aint no thing. When you have a pair of mono-blocks with a total of 16 outputs tubes. Biasing is not going to happen in 5 minutes. I am so glad that VTL put auto-biasing in the current generation. But the MB-450's price jumped from around $7.5k to $20k. (Too rich for my blood.)
 
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