Polk RTiA7 What am I missing?

[StrokerAce]

Okay, I had a Denon AVRS740H hooked up to 4 Bose cubes and a Klipsch 10" SW. I realized I was missing some body so I decided to upgrade on a limited budget. I spent a month reading reviews and settled on Polk Audio RTiA7s. I got them home and realized the AVRS740 didn't have enough power to push them but I had intended to bi-amp. I belatedly found this wasn't a feature of that receiver so I took it back to ABC and they allowed me to return it for AVRX3500H which I could use to bi-amp. After experimenting with placement I found that there were sounds missing on albums I had listened to dozens (100s) of times. It didn't have a lot of clarity in that high hats, cymbals, rides and some other mid to upper level tones I had heard with my previous set up. I still had 3 of the Bose cubes for surround applications but thought I would rather listen in 2 channel to music. Missed the thump of the bass so switched to 2.1 which helped with that but still missing highs and mids. In experimenting I switched to multi channel and all of the sounds that I was missing were suddenly there and it opened up the stage and imaging by quite a bit. I guess my question is whether the Polks aren't what they are cracked up to be? Is it wrong to bi-amp? I know people say it doesn't help much but it certainly couldn't hurt could it? Is it wrong to listen to music in multi channel when it sounds so much better? Do I have something not set up right on the AVR? Thanks for the help! P.S. I can't afford more than what I have right now, the wife has been patient but patience has it's limits!

 

[GrimSurfer]

I think what you experienced were the limits of certain AVRs. This has been a topic of much debate here with some saying it doesn't matter if the wattage is the same, and others saying that there are qualitative differences beyond amplifier wattage (such as current delivery and ability to drive difficult speaker loads).

I'll leave it for others to comment for the time being, but I do appreciate you sharing your observations... and congratulate you for having the courage to return gear that doesn't perform as needed.

 

[Leemix]

Nothing wrong with bi amping but is everything connected the right way without jumpers on speakers and setup to bi-amp in receiver?
Did you run the auto audyssey setup after changing speakers and did it sound right?
Have you tried both stereo and direct modes for 2 channel?
There could be something wrong with one or both speakers. Have you used your ear close to the tweeters and midrange to listen if they actually work on both speakers? For tweets just place a hand in front of but not touching the dome, remove and repeat a few times, does the sound change when you place hand or remove it on any of the polk speakers? (It should)

I have 0 experience with polk speakers so cant say how they sound compared to other speakers.


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[StrokerAce]

Nothing wrong with bi amping but is everything connected the right way without jumpers on speakers and setup to bi-amp in receiver?
Did you run the auto audyssey setup after changing speakers and did it sound right?
Have you tried both stereo and direct modes for 2 channel?
There could be something wrong with one or both speakers. Have you used your ear close to the tweeters and midrange to listen if they actually work on both speakers? For tweets just place a hand in front of but not touching the dome, remove and repeat a few times, does the sound change when you place hand or remove it on any of the polk speakers? (It should)

I have 0 experience with polk speakers so cant say how they sound compared to other speakers.


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I had the left and right channels running to the upper post which is what Denon told me to do, surrounds running to lower post, in correct phase, all tight. I set it to bi-amp in my receiver. I did run Audyssey which would adjust it for 5.1 but shouldn't have anything to do with 2.1 or multi channel if I'm understanding correctly. Since my original post I undid the bi-amp and it gave life to the Polk's , they sound pretty amazing now where I had been disappointed. In switching back and forth between 2.1 and multi channel I didn't hear any improvement in clarity this time where there was a leap before. My question now would be why the difference? I know bi-amping doesn't increase watts but gives the speakers their own source. I don't know what direct modes are. I had it on straight stereo and was switching back and forth between that and multi-channel. I did listen and check for sound on upper and lower speakers in each cabinet.

 

[Leemix]

I had the left and right channels running to the upper post which is what Denon told me to do, surrounds running to lower post, in correct phase, all tight. I set it to bi-amp in my receiver. I did run Audyssey which would adjust it for 5.1 but shouldn't have anything to do with 2.1 or multi channel if I'm understanding correctly. Since my original post I undid the bi-amp and it gave life to the Polk's , they sound pretty amazing now where I had been disappointed. In switching back and forth between 2.1 and multi channel I didn't hear any improvement in clarity this time where there was a leap before. My question now would be why the difference? I know bi-amping doesn't increase watts but gives the speakers their own source.

Must have been something wrong with connections or the setup for bi-amp.


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[Leemix]

The audessey setup matters for everything apart from the direct/pure direct sound modes. It also sets distance and channel volumes which i think are used no matter what. The Audyssey room correction etc you can turn on and off per input(unless direct/pure direct is used then its ignored along with bass management)


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[lovinthehd]

Passive bi-amping is mostly a waste of wire IMO, but as you said it shouldn't hurt if you connect correctly (or you can fry an amp if you do it badly). It might work as a placebo. You don't sound like you know much about Audyssey nor do you share how you particularly ran the routine....it can matter if you're going to use it (the alternative is setting up your system manually with an spl meter for example). Have no idea what your settings/sound modes being used are either. Lots of possibilities. Sounds like towards the end something changed for the better but hard to know from the description just what it may have been. Whether the avr amp is sufficient for your speakers can also have to do with the distance you are from the speakers and to what levels you're driving them. Could even have to do with how you've positioned your speakers to an extent.

 

[StrokerAce]

Passive bi-amping is mostly a waste of wire IMO, but as you said it shouldn't hurt if you connect correctly (or you can fry an amp if you do it badly). It might work as a placebo. You don't sound like you know much about Audyssey nor do you share how you particularly ran the routine....it can matter if you're going to use it (the alternative is setting up your system manually with an spl meter for example). Have no idea what your settings/sound modes being used are either. Lots of possibilities. Sounds like towards the end something changed for the better but hard to know from the description just what it may have been. Whether the avr amp is sufficient for your speakers can also have to do with the distance you are from the speakers and to what levels you're driving them. Could even have to do with how you've positioned your speakers to an extent.

I ran the Audyssey in all 8 positions. My settings were crossovers at 80hz for the fronts and 250hz for the Bose cubes. Straight stereo without sub then straight stereo with sub. In bi-amp was told to switch the Fronts (Polk's) to Small along with my cubes. Speaker position was experimented with (closer to the wall, farther from the wall, closer together, farther apart). Connecting straps between upper and lower post removed. All I know for sure is after taking off bi-amp the Polk's came to life. It really doesn't make sense to me because if nothing else it shouldn't have hurt it.

 

[StrokerAce]

Must have been something wrong with connections or the setup for bi-amp.


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I don't know what it could've been. I know the phase was right. I know the connections were tight. I know I switched it to bi-amp in the receiver. I know I ran Audyssey.

 

[slipperybidness]

I ran the Audyssey in all 8 positions. My settings were crossovers at 80hz for the fronts and 250hz for the Bose cubes. Straight stereo without sub then straight stereo with sub. In bi-amp was told to switch the Fronts (Polk's) to Small along with my cubes. Speaker position was experimented with (closer to the wall, farther from the wall, closer together, farther apart). Connecting straps between upper and lower post removed. All I know for sure is after taking off bi-amp the Polk's came to life. It really doesn't make sense to me because if nothing else it shouldn't have hurt it.

Were you using the Surround Channels? Or the Surround BACK channels when you had it hooked up to bi-amp???

Usually, I have seen the Bi-amp options in AVRs use the SB channels, not the surround channels.

But, you just learned a pitfall of Bi-wiring (you didn't really bi-amp it anyway)-- added complexity and more likely to make a mistake.

 

[StrokerAce]

Surround Backs

 

[lovinthehd]

I ran the Audyssey in all 8 positions. My settings were crossovers at 80hz for the fronts and 250hz for the Bose cubes. Straight stereo without sub then straight stereo with sub. In bi-amp was told to switch the Fronts (Polk's) to Small along with my cubes. Speaker position was experimented with (closer to the wall, farther from the wall, closer together, farther apart). Connecting straps between upper and lower post removed. All I know for sure is after taking off bi-amp the Polk's came to life. It really doesn't make sense to me because if nothing else it shouldn't have hurt it.

8 positions is good. At ear level and in what pattern? Audyssey set the levels/delays for each channel to what particularly? Did Audyssey set the crossovers to those values or did you after Audyssey? Not sure what you mean by straight stereo with and without a sub....straight/direct are terms some avrs use and that generally means 2.0 for stereo. Can we see a rough sketch of room dims, seating positions and speaker positions? Or pics? Did you rerun Audyssey each time you tried new speaker positions? As I said, passive bi-amping really isn't worth anything and if it works better without I'd just keep going and not worry about it.

 

[ryanosaur]

Were you using the Surround Channels? Or the Surround BACK channels when you had it hooked up to bi-amp???

Usually, I have seen the Bi-amp options in AVRs use the SB channels, not the surround channels.

But, you just learned a pitfall of Bi-wiring (you didn't really bi-amp it anyway)-- added complexity and more likely to make a mistake.

All you did was take a little more energy away from the overall system to apply to the second set of binding posts, actually decreasing the available watts per channel the AVR might deliver.
I completely agree that you are better off keeping the jumper installed and just powering your speakers conventionally: one cable to each speaker.

@StrokerAce , just to rule out a bum driver, did you do as @Leemix suggested and put your ear up to each driver and make certain they are all operational?

 

[-Jim-]

Rather than go back and waste time on bi-amping (I too see it as a marketing gimmick in most cases and a waste of effort); try changing the crossover set point for the Polk Audio RTiA7s to say 50 or 60 Hz (Polk says the Lower and Upper -3dB Limits are 35 Hz → 26,000 Hz) to help out the 10 inch Klipsch Sub. Getting that to blend in with your Polks will improve the overall sound quality. (Have you tried the Sub-woofer crawl to see where it is best positioned?)

 

[StrokerAce]

I had the left and right channels running to the upper post which is what Denon told me to do, surrounds running to lower post, in correct phase, all tight. I set it to bi-amp in my receiver. I did run Audyssey which would adjust it for 5.1 but shouldn't have anything to do with 2.1 or multi channel if I'm understanding correctly. Since my original post I undid the bi-amp and it gave life to the Polk's , they sound pretty amazing now where I had been disappointed. In switching back and forth between 2.1 and multi channel I didn't hear any improvement in clarity this time where there was a leap before. My question now would be why the difference? I know bi-amping doesn't increase watts but gives the speakers their own source.

All you did was take a little more energy away from the overall system to apply to the second set of binding posts, actually decreasing the available watts per channel the AVR might deliver.
I completely agree that you are better off keeping the jumper installed and just powering your speakers conventionally: one cable to each speaker.

@StrokerAce , just to rule out a bum driver, did you do as @Leemix suggested and put your ear up to each driver and make certain they are all operational?

Yes. They all seemed to be functioning.

 

[StrokerAce]

Rather than go back and waste time on bi-amping (I too see it as a marketing gimmick in most cases and a waste of effort); try changing the crossover set point for the Polk Audio RTiA7s to say 50 or 60 Hz (Polk says the Lower and Upper -3dB Limits are 35 Hz → 26,000 Hz) to help out the 10 inch Klipsch Sub. Getting that to blend in with your Polks will improve the overall sound quality. (Have you tried the Sub-woofer crawl to see where it is best positioned?)

It wasn't the mid to lows I was missing. This was an issue I was having while playing them on their own and in a 2.1 configuration. No, I haven't done the crawl yet but have read about it and plan on trying it out today. I have them not bi-amped right now and they sound as they are supposed to so I will probably stick with that. I do want to do some investigation though and find out why they sounded so poorly bi-amped. I know a lot of people said it doesn't really help but it really shouldn't hurt either. I briefly thought that I might have to reconfigure my speaker set up in my computer as that is where my music is stored but after undoing the bi-amp that doesn't seem to be the issue. Next question I have if you know the answer is should I fool around with the speaker config in my computer? Is there a way to bypass it as the AVR is doing the work? It is in 5.1 in the computer so is it stripping sounds when I'm playing in 2.1?

 

[StrokerAce]

8 positions is good. At ear level and in what pattern? Audyssey set the levels/delays for each channel to what particularly? Did Audyssey set the crossovers to those values or did you after Audyssey? Not sure what you mean by straight stereo with and without a sub....straight/direct are terms some avrs use and that generally means 2.0 for stereo. Can we see a rough sketch of room dims, seating positions and speaker positions? Or pics? Did you rerun Audyssey each time you tried new speaker positions? As I said, passive bi-amping really isn't worth anything and if it works better without I'd just keep going and not worry about it.

Straight stereo- just the Polk's, then 2.1 Polk's with the subs. Audyssey set the crossovers. Yes I reran Audyssey after each time but haven't done it again since I stopped bi amping, that is on the agenda today. They sound much better but want to make sure I'm getting everything out of them I can and should be getting.

 

[Leemix]

Its probably up to 5.1 from computer i suppose. You can see how many input channels are active on the front display if thats chosen, or just hit the info button on the remote to see which channels are active for different source signals like movies and music when you play them. You can also hit the direct button to bypass most signal processing and listen which speakers have sound. With direct it will be without sub (bass management is turned off) unless there is an LFE channel active in the signal.


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[Leemix]

Also if a multichannel signal is sent to the receiver and you have stereo as sound mode it wont strip the extra channels, the receiver mixes them into the 2 stereo channels so you wont lose anything.


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[ryanosaur]

I do want to do some investigation though and find out why they sounded so poorly bi-amped. I know a lot of people said it doesn't really help but it really shouldn't hurt either.

Correct: it shouldn’t hurt anything. Simplest solution is something wasn’t set up properly. In your descriptions, you kept mentioning that you had them connected to the Surrounds. Specifically, did you have the Rear/Back posts connected (which are the assignable ones)? Likewise, have you tried connecting any speakers to them at all, say as Zone2 stereo and testing to make certain something in the amp stage isnt wonky?

Hypothetically, your best bet for playing around with passive bi-amping would involve having two external stereo amplifiers, four monoblocks, or one 5-channel amp (like Emotiva or Outlaw, for example, where each amp channel is rated to put out a ‘true’ xxx w per channel, all channels driven)... If you were to do this, take a y-splitter from your L-Front pre-out, plug in to amp channel 1 and 2, remove the speaker jumpers, and connect amp channel 1 to the HF terminal, and amp channel 2 to the LF. Repeat for the R-Front and amp channels 3,4.
If you decide to seriously follow this endeavor, keep your amps matching, and for each speaker, make certain your speaker wires are the same length (left and right can each be different lengths, but left HF and left LF MUST be the same).
Mind, I’ve kept that description on the simplified side, without even bringing in the value of bi-amping a matching center. Needless to say, you already know how most of us feel about passive bi-amping. It won’t hurt anything if you do it right, and if there is anything to be gained from it... it is generally considered to be very minimal and not really audible.
But using the AVR to do it, as I mentioned above, only takes juice away from all the other speaker terminals as you plug in more sources.

Hope that helps.