Desperate for Dollars - Manufacturer's Absurd Claims, Specs & Science

[lovinthehd]

Maybe, but I see forums as an ideal place to pass on such observations to those interested in considering them.

I suspect that many readers are mid-life audio nuts who see this as a long term hobby. So pointing them in a more logical direction could be very helpful.

The audio nuts seem to gravitate towards simpler two ch stuff anyways. Many have separate 2ch systems from their tv/movie watching systems. Forums are great places for lots of ways to go for consideration....but you need to base the recommendations on so many factors, just suggesting everyone get a pre-pro and stick with it's limitations as long as you can while adding piles of amps (from 2ch to 5ch to 7ch to 9ch to 13ch etc) doesn't always make sense.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Forgot you said psuedoscience and that's a lot more fun so how about a good ridiculous one praised by The Absolute Sound (Absolutely ridiculous, is what they should call themselves). https://www.synergisticresearch.com/acoustics/passive/uef-acoustic-dots/

ps You can't go wrong with psuedoscience at SR....they even made acoustic paint available! Quantum! LOL

LOL. Now that's what I'm talking about! This has to be a contender for pseudoscience abusurdity at its finest.

Can I buy the ones that light up in different color? Red for low frequencies, purple for high ones?

 

[GrimSurfer]

The audio nuts seem to gravitate towards simpler two ch stuff anyways. Many have separate 2ch systems from their tv/movie watching systems. Forums are great places for lots of ways to go for consideration....but you need to base the recommendations on so many factors, just suggesting everyone get a pre-pro and stick with it's limitations as long as you can while adding piles of amps (from 2ch to 5ch to 7ch to 9ch to 13ch etc) doesn't always make sense.

True, but I see a lot of ppl using their AVRs for HD music and Blu-Ray. Whether they wish to admit it or not, many two channel people see this as getting closer to the holy grail of audio -- life like immersive sound.

 

[lovinthehd]

LOL. Now that's what I'm talking about! This has to be a contender for pseudoscience abusurdity at its finest.

Can I buy the ones that light up in different color? Red for low frequencies, purple for high ones?

He (Ted Denney, owner/chief turd burglar) is the number one bullshitter in the biz at the moment I think. A favorite go to for stupid audio nonsense for the gullible.

 

[lovinthehd]

True, but I see a lot of ppl using their AVRs for HD music and Blu-Ray. Whether they wish to admit it or not, many two channel people see this as getting closer to the holy grail of audio -- life like immersive sound.

Nice to hear some of the staunch old 2ch guys are trying it out....I participate in quite a few audio fora/boards over the years and I get the idea very few 2ch fans actually are doing this but good for them. I'm one who discovered avrs are a great way to go for a variety of reasons beyond old 2ch analog gear (which I still have anyways). If they have some oddly hard to drive speakers to concert levels to start with they may not like avrs long, tho

 

[GrimSurfer]

He (Ted Denney, owner/chief turd burglar) is the number one bullshitter in the biz at the moment I think. A favorite go to for stupid audio nonsense for the gullible.

Will check him out. It would be great to read about something flakier than the Tekton patent.

<edit> Am through a few of Ted's YouTube videos already. Boy, did I waste a science degree. I haven't experienced such amazing products since using my RONCO pocket fisherman to land a record albacore tuna a few years back. Made a bundle in Japan on that one!

 

[GrimSurfer]

Nice to hear some of the staunch old 2ch guys are trying it out....I participate in quite a few audio fora/boards over the years and I get the idea very few 2ch fans actually are doing this but good for them. I'm one who discovered avrs are a great way to go for a variety of reasons beyond old 2ch analog gear (which I still have anyways). If they have some oddly hard to drive speakers to concert levels to start with they may not like avrs long, tho

That's an excellent point. I can see great opportunities for companies selling gear that fully serves both groups.

I think that this is what Anthem is trying to do with its MCA amp line, along with their AVM 60 and STR AV controller and preamp. An AVM 60, along with an MCA 525 could meet both needs rather well, regardless of the speaker loads (provided they're 4 ohms or above).

It's the merging of AV and audio technologies that offers the greatest hope to manufacturers and users. Scales of efficiency and reduced inventory are possible.

All manufacturers have to do is to honestly rate performance and let users decide how much they're willing to "pay to play".

But the key is standards... otherwise, consumers are seduced by a lot of stuff that will only meet momentary needs and whose usefulness wanes over time.

 

[lovinthehd]

That's an excellent point. I can see great opportunities for companies selling gear that fully serves both groups.

I think that this is what Anthem is trying to do with its MCA amp line, along with their AVM 60 and STR AV controller and preamp. An AVM 60, along with an MCA 525 could meet both needs rather well, regardless of the speaker loads (provided they're 4 ohms or above).

It's the merging of AV and audio technologies that offers the greatest hope to manufacturers and users. Scales of efficiency and reduced inventory are possible.

All manufacturers have to do is to honestly rate performance and let users decide how much they're willing to "pay to play".

But the key is standards... otherwise, consumers are seduced by a lot of stuff that will only meet momentary needs and whose usefulness wanes over time.

Anthem has nice stuff, but they're just not priced well for most. They're just not a major player (yet?) and it may be a field that if they simply wait it out they may survive this supposed transition to tv/smart bar combos?

Honest rating and consumers don't go together in many ways currently....and many consumers have no idea what the spec means let alone the basis of the spec. I do agree generally it's a good thing if the whole worldwide consumer electronics industry would agree on standards (and hopefully not canted too far to the marketing department's wishes),especially a fairly wide gamut of specs so that you could get a better picture of overall performance than the cherry-picked ones.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Here's another example of stupid specs, from the good people of Emotiva.

https://emotiva.com/products/xpa-dr2

The funny thing about this "copy" is that the amp actually looks quite good. It ticks many of the boxes: good power deliver at 4&8 ohms, reasonably low distortion, and an acknowledgement about the importance of a robust power supply.

Then the advertising department has to ruin it by saying something particularly stupid:

lightweight, powerful, intelligent design capable of delivering over 3 kW of continuous power..

Now, technically, this may be true because they're talking about the limits of the switched mode power supply and not what it actually delivers to the gain stages of the amp. Regardless, I challenge anyone to tell me how a product plugged into either a standard wall socket (15A, 1800W) or an upgraded wall socket (20A, 2400W) can deliver 3000W of continuous power.

The nonsensical nature of the 3kw claim is later qualified in the owner's manual...

"Also note that, while the exceptional sound quality of the XPA Gen3 modular power amplifier, and its two-channel continuous power rating, remain the same whether you choose to use a 120 VAC line or a 230 VAC line, the multi-channel power ratings are somewhat higher when you power the XPA Gen3 from a 230 VAC circuit."

Ummm, yeah. No kidding guys.

So, in other words, the 3kw power supply really only works near its rated capacity in Europe, or other places using a 230V circuit (of at least 13A, though, practically speaking, 15A would be required to prevent circuit breakers tripping from current inrush).

Now this might seem like picking fly sh!t from pepper but it's an example of how a good company with a really, really good product can get so absorbed by the numbers game that they make claims that tickle Pinocchio's nose.

I simply don't know why manufacturers do this sort of stupid stuff. People who know nothing about electricity won't understand what 3kw means. People who do will spot the meaningless hype right away. So really, what's to be gained (pun intended)?

 

[M Code]

Here's another example of stupid specs, from the good people of Emotiva.

https://emotiva.com/products/xpa-dr2

The funny thing about this "copy" is that the amp actually looks quite good. It ticks many of the boxes: good power deliver at 4&8 ohms, reasonably low distortion, and an acknowledgement about the importance of a robust power supply.

Then the advertising department has to ruin it by saying something particularly stupid:

lightweight, powerful, intelligent design capable of delivering over 3 kW of continuous power..

Now, technically, this may be true because they're talking about the limits of the switched mode power supply and not what it actually delivers to the gain stages of the amp. Regardless, I challenge anyone to tell me how a product plugged into either a standard wall socket (15A, 1800W) or an upgraded wall socket (20A, 2400W) can deliver 3000W of continuous power.

The nonsensical nature of the 3kw claim is later qualified in the owner's manual...

"Also note that, while the exceptional sound quality of the XPA Gen3 modular power amplifier, and its two-channel continuous power rating, remain the same whether you choose to use a 120 VAC line or a 230 VAC line, the multi-channel power ratings are somewhat higher when you power the XPA Gen3 from a 230 VAC circuit."

Ummm, yeah. No kidding guys.

So, in other words, the 3kw power supply really only works near its rated capacity in Europe, or other places using a 230V circuit (of at least 13A, though, practically speaking, 15A would be required to prevent circuit breakers tripping from current inrush).

Now this might seem like picking fly sh!t from pepper but it's an example of how a good company with a really, really good product can get so absorbed by the numbers game that they make claims that tickle Pinocchio's nose.

I simply don't know why manufacturers do this sort of stupid stuff. People who know nothing about electricity won't understand what 3kw means. People who do will spot the meaningless hype right away. So really, what's to be gained (pun intended)?

Pretty simple...
Recently we participated in a proprietary research project for a major CE/AVR brand that attempted to measure/quantify what variables were most influential in purchasing an AVR...
Below is a short breakout of the key points..

• Power output in watts, max total power was pertinent
• Lowest price, customer would visit neighborhood store for answers to questions then shop on-line
• Many customers mentioned the AVR with the most watts would pick up FM stations better
• Uncluttered front panel, indicated the AVR was easier to setup/use
• Remote control with back-lighting & larger buttons was easier to use
• Length/conditions for warranty
• Brand reputation for reliability/quality 1st then performance, features, technologies

Just my $0.02...

 

[GrimSurfer]

I like it... watts = FM reception. Ha ha.

 

[TankTop5]

https://www.costco.com/Yamaha-TSR-7850-7.2-Channel-Network-AV-Receiver.product.100456240.html

Costco is generally know for selling relatively high quality merchandise.

I found this today then came back to post only to see this thread had gone from 3 posts to 51. Yes I actually read them all.

Here’s my question, if you have a quality AVR that puts out 100 watts rms @ 8ohms into 7 channels, is the a way to even push it that hard (for more than an instant) outside of bench testing?


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[TankTop5]

Another question, I’m currently running a 40 watt stereo amp. For movies I generally have the volume knob set to about 25% power. Does that mean I’m running a minimum 10 Watts RMS or peak? Some movies vocals can hardly be heard and other movies action scenes my kids are coming out of their bedrooms asking me to turn it down, the volume knob almost seems meaningless. I wish someone came out with a 3/4 position volume switch, night mode, as recorded, theater and concert... whatever you want to call it.


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[GrimSurfer]

https://www.costco.com/Yamaha-TSR-7850-7.2-Channel-Network-AV-Receiver.product.100456240.html

Costco is generally know for selling relatively high quality merchandise.

I found this today then came back to post only to see this thread had gone from 3 posts to 51. Yes I actually read them all.

Here’s my question, if you have a quality AVR that puts out 100 watts rms @ 8ohms into 7 channels, is the a way to even push it that hard (for more than an instant) outside of bench testing?


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Yes there is. But before I get to that, I read the manual.

https://manual.yamaha.com/av/18/tsr7850/en-US/329936523.html

This AVR is rated for 130W IHF per channel @ 8 ohms. This roughly equates to ~60 Watts RMS. At 4 ohms, its 195 W IHF (~80 W RMS).

Yamaha says that these power ratings are for the two front channels only!

So what is the output for 7 channels? Anyone's guess because Yamaha doesn't specify that! But my guess is that it is likely going to drop output to an average of less than 30-40W RMS. (fronts may be higher and the rears certainly lower).

Now if you it up to four ohm speakers and crank up the volume, then my guess is that the amp will likely overheat and trip the circuit protection. That's fair, because the amp is not rated for 4 ohm loads.

The same thing may well happen with difficult to drive (insensitive, phase challenging) 6 ohm loads, especially when driving them at high volumes because you want to "feel" the sound of the movie you're watching.

If it doesn't, clipping is a real possibility, as Yamaha used 10% THD as the benchmark for this AVR's max output. So, with a 6 ohm load, my guess is that you'd tempt fate by cranking the volume past the 1/2 to 3/4 point.

This AVR would probably have no problem driving 8 ohm speakers to rather high volumes however.

I don't believe that Costco sells good audio equipment as much as I believe that they have competitive pricing on a limited range of consumer grade gear.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Another question, I’m currently running a 40 watt stereo amp. For movies I generally have the volume knob set to about 25% power. Does that mean I’m running a minimum 10 Watts RMS or peak? Some movies vocals can hardly be heard and other movies action scenes my kids are coming out of their bedrooms asking me to turn it down, the volume knob almost seems meaningless. I wish someone came out with a 3/4 position volume switch, night mode, as recorded, theater and concert... whatever you want to call it.


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Not necessarily. It depends on how the potentiometer (old equipment) is wound or the gain control (new equipment) is programmed. It's probably safe to say that the position of the dial is roughly representative of the amp's output... but if neither the volume control nor the amp operate in a linear manner then all bets are off.

But let's say it is, just for discussion's sake... because what follows helps form the underlying principles for the answer to your other questions.

Add five more speakers into the mix. What's going to happen? The volume of each will drop because they are all demanding power... and that 10W is going to be chopped up like a kilo of coke at Studio 54. So you'll need to crank the volume... and the amp will now have to work three times as hard to maintain the same output on a speaker by speaker basis.

Will your stereo be able to cope? Nope. Not a chance, because it doesn't have seven amplifiers, so you'll have to wire the extra speakers in series (which will KILL volume) or parallel (which will reduce impedance below 4 ohms and JACK the power needed to drive them).

An AVR will be able to do a better job for sure, as long as the demand of the same seven speakers don't exceed the amp's capacity to comfortably drive them... including a reserve for dynamic headroom.

Dynamic headroom, dynamic range and something called linearity is what allows an amp to be both musical and accurate. This means it can effectively reproduce that hoarse on-screen whisper "danger close" into a handset an instant before going full range when the artillery rounds start to impact a few feet away.

If you turn down the volume of a good amp and concentrate, you'll be able to hear the whisper without having explosions wake up the kids. If the amp is less capable, turning down the volume will make the whisper fade into the background while the explosions still wake the kids. Some of this is due to speaker performance but a good amp can go a long way in driving the most idiosyncratic loudspeakers to produce the faintest of sounds and loudest of sounds in rapid succession.

This is the qualitative aspect of amplification that is difficult to portray in a simple measurement such as a power rating.

On your other question...

Some amps do have calibrated volume controls. These typically express output in decibels below full scale (example -30 dBFS). The good ones are based on in room calibration that takes speaker sensitivity and listener distance into account. Either way, dBFS volume controls are associated with modern amps that use digital sources, circuitry and gain controls (this is a crude explanation, a better one can be found by looking up dBFS on Wikipedia).

Now I kind of see calibrated volume controls as being sort of useless outside of situations when you're comparing and testing gear or making finely tuned adjustments to make up for room gain etc., which very few people actually do.

But that's a values statement.

Truth be told, I'd certainly rather a calibrated volume control provided it's inclusion didn't come at the expense of a better transformer or better gain stages.

This is a very long winded reply, so I apologise for taking up so much bandwidth. Hopefully what I've written provides a little more insight into the quantitative and qualitative aspects of amplification.

 

[M Code]

Another question, I’m currently running a 40 watt stereo amp. For movies I generally have the volume knob set to about 25% power. Does that mean I’m running a minimum 10 Watts RMS or peak? Some movies vocals can hardly be heard and other movies action scenes my kids are coming out of their bedrooms asking me to turn it down, the volume knob almost seems meaningless. I wish someone came out with a 3/4 position volume switch, night mode, as recorded, theater and concert... whatever you want to call it.


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There is some logic to the dB scale for a typical AVR...
For example, they start @ -80dB & go up to +10dB. Note that 0dB is typically calibrated with a 1VRMS @1kHz input source signal and the AVR is putting out its rated power into 8 Ohms. However the display dB scale can vary depending upon number of factors including:

• Source input level
• Loudspeaker impedance/sensitivity

Also note that in an AVR the volume level(for all channels) is processed digitally, and if any channel trim is in a boost + mode whatever its setting... Now the max dB scale is decreased accordingly, for example if the Left/Right front channel trim levels are set @ +6dB now the max will +4dB. (10db minus 6 dB)

Just my $0.02...

 

[lovinthehd]

Another question, I’m currently running a 40 watt stereo amp. For movies I generally have the volume knob set to about 25% power. Does that mean I’m running a minimum 10 Watts RMS or peak? Some movies vocals can hardly be heard and other movies action scenes my kids are coming out of their bedrooms asking me to turn it down, the volume knob almost seems meaningless. I wish someone came out with a 3/4 position volume switch, night mode, as recorded, theater and concert... whatever you want to call it.


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Most likely you have no idea of the power output based on volume knob position. On a modern avr you actually can calibrate the volume knob to a movie standard reference, but it will be a logarithmic scale (dB) where percentages aren't obvious at all. What speakers and at what distance have a lot more to do with your wattage than a position of the volume knob. Try an spl calculator for wattage, altho that won't help a lot with the position of an uncalibrated volume control reading...http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html and even then it won't be directly relatable to a "percentage" of a particular power output level in terms of wattage.

 

[TankTop5]

Most likely you have no idea of the power output based on volume knob position. On a modern avr you actually can calibrate the volume knob to a movie standard reference, but it will be a logarithmic scale (dB) where percentages aren't obvious at all. What speakers and at what distance have a lot more to do with your wattage than a position of the volume knob. Try an spl calculator for wattage, altho that won't help a lot with the position of an uncalibrated volume control reading...http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html and even then it won't be directly relatable to a "percentage" of a particular power output level in terms of wattage.

Sounds like we are both right, I have no idea how a high end calibrated and room corrected volume works. I’m correct in that lower end receivers 1-10 or 1-30 (or whatever they may be) have no real meaning and I’m guessing are probably not even linear. What I did previously mean was I’m using my receiver with a quarter turn of the volume knob, depending on what I’m watching or listening to the actual spl can vary greatly.


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[lovinthehd]

Sounds like we are both right, I have no idea how a high end calibrated and room corrected volume works. I’m correct in that lower end receivers 1-10 or 1-30 (or whatever they may be) have no real meaning and I’m guessing are probably not even linear. What I did previously mean was I’m using my receiver with a quarter turn of the volume knob, depending on what I’m watching or listening to the actual spl can vary greatly.


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Many even "lower end" receivers now have the capability of being calibrated to the movie standard in both absolute and relative volume scales. It's not -30dB except for test tones usually, tho (0 or ref would be approx 85dB, or -20, average spl at the listening position with peaks of 20db, or 105dB, LFE channel 10dB more). A quarter turn on just about any system just means that, a quarter turn of the volume knob (which wouldn't get you but a couple dB on a few I have).

 

[TankTop5]

Many even "lower end" receivers now have the capability of being calibrated to the movie standard in both absolute and relative volume scales. It's not -30dB except for test tones usually, tho (0 or ref would be approx 85dB, or -20, average spl at the listening position with peaks of 20db, or 105dB, LFE channel 10dB more). A quarter turn on just about any system just means that, a quarter turn of the volume knob (which wouldn't get you but a couple dB on a few I have).

Looks like I’ve got lots to learn. Hi Fi has always been an itch but only recently have I had the ability to begin to scratch it. Well my wine glass is empty so I’m off to bed, goodnight .


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