All channels driven ratings

[AGC88]

Hi all,

I know Gene has done testing for some 2018 AVR's and has a chart for the true "all channels driven ratings". I couldn't find it. Not in his article where he names the top pics for 2018. Does any one have the link available? Did he do one for power amps of 2018? Listing the actual "5-ch driven wpc" or "all channels driven"?

Thanks.

In a YouTube video he showed the chart...the Marantz flagship was rated at 86 wpc 7-ch driven...

Wondered what the number is for the Denon AVR 8500H...also around 86-100 wpc all channels driven or 7/ch? From the same JP factory...

 

[everettT]

It's a meaningless spec.

 

[AGC88]

It's a meaningless spec.

How so? And, if so, why would Gene bother wasting his time??

 

[ryanosaur]

Real world power and the RMS stress testing are two different things! Apples and potatoes?

 

[AGC88]

It's a meaningless spec.

How so? And, if so, why would Gene bother wasting his time

 

[AGC88]

Real world power and the RMS stress testing are two different things! Apples and potatoes?

That's true. I guess Gene's testing wasn't real world. His 97 wpc @ 8ohms...

Odd no one has done real world testing using a SPL meter. I have one.

 

[ryanosaur]

Both of course are Pomme in French.
RMS is a stress test, as I understand it (mind I'm not an expert here)... perhaps a very gross oversimplification... but they are running sine waves, continuous tones, through the system up to a point of failure. Music Power is almost never like that... with momentary intense dynamic peaks that last fractions of a second and go away.
Your system should be able to output more than xxWRMS for those brief moments and then recover without problem.

 

[AGC88]

Both of course are Pomme in French.
RMS is a stress test, as I understand it (mind I'm not an expert here)... perhaps a very gross oversimplification... but they are running sine waves, continuous tones, through the system up to a point of failure. Music Power is almost never like that... with momentary intense dynamic peaks that last fractions of a second and go away.
Your system should be able to output more than xxWRMS for those brief moments and then recover without problem.

Also true. The "7ch driven wpc rating" is really just a general guide. Maybe a number that makes the owner feel like he bought an AVR with amps capable of outputting "enough wattage". There are no films where all 7-ch will output the same SPL. . It's usually either just the centre going all out followed by the LR...subs with their own power amp (unless some one opted for a passive)..Still, I am curious to know about the Denon 8500H's "7-ch driven wpc #"...now, more out of curiosity. Is it the same as the Marantz flagship ast 97 wpc inot 8 ohms?

Would a separates power amp like an Emotiva 5-ch output closer to manufacturer's claimed lab tested number than an AVR? Suppose it varies from brand to brand.

 

[everettT]

When would you ever have all channels playing exactly the same content. We only use a watt most of the time. It dosent mean a damn thing regardless of who tested it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You will see measurements for both Continuous all-channels, 2Ch, and Dynamic Power.

This is what Audioholics says about Dynamic Power:

• Dynamic PWR - 1kHz CEA-2006 Burst Method testing. This is a dynamic power measurement adopted from the car industry similar to IHF method, only a bit more difficult for an amplifier and more representative of real musical content.

 

[everettT]

How so? And, if so, why would Gene bother wasting his time??

As for wasting time, that's debatable. What 30 seconds?

 

[ryanosaur]

Also true. The "7ch driven wpc rating" is really just a general guide. Maybe a number that makes the owner feel like he bought an AVR with amps capable of outputting "enough wattage". There are no films where all 7-ch will output the same SPL. . It's usually either just the centre going all out followed by the LR...subs with their own power amp (unless some one opted for a passive)..Still, I am curious to know about the Denon 8500H's "7-ch driven wpc #"...now, more out of curiosity. Is it the same as the Marantz flagship ast 97 wpc inot 8 ohms?

Would a separates power amp like an Emotiva 5-ch output closer to manufacturer's claimed lab tested number than an AVR? Suppose it varies from brand to brand.

FWIW, I was told my SR6012 (rated at 110w, 8ohms, 2-chan) is probably outputting 60-70wpc. Nobody ever clarified if that was supposed to be wRMS or Music Power. I think the Marantz flagsip AVR is probably closer to 80, and the Denon 85... when running all channels. That said, some AVRs allow for more power to go specifically to the front 3 than to the surrounds/heights.

In terms of the Emo Amps, those are rated, as I'm sure you know, all channels driven, at least for the XPA Amps. Or in my case, I have 5 monoblocks.

Now as you talk SPL, more wattage allows for greater headroom, louder dynamic peaks, but 0 on your volume knob is still 0 with a 500wRMS/ch amp as it is without. If you turn it to "reference" SPL, you will still only be using 1w @1m (or thereabouts).

 

[everettT]

That's true. I guess Gene's testing wasn't real world. His 97 wpc @ 8ohms...

Odd no one has done real world testing using a SPL meter. I have one.

I'd spend some time researching things that matter, like sound. Understanding those will make you much happier than watts.

 

[AGC88]

When would you ever have all channels playing exactly the same content. We only use a watt most of the time. It dosent mean a damn thing regardless of who tested it.

I think irc reading about that fact years ago now. I suppose wpc numbers whether lab tested or not are just like 0-60 MPH times we read/hear about in car reviews. Numbers to help sell magazines and cars...product. In "real world driving" whether a car can do 0-60 in 3.5s means nothing...driven on the street, in traffic, along side drivers of different skill/judgment...cars of different abilities...in less than ideal conditions...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Both Audioholics and Sound & Vision did reviews on the Denon X8500, but there were no measurements.

 

[everettT]

I think irc reading about that fact years ago now. I suppose wpc numbers whether lab tested or not are just like 0-60 MPH times we read/hear about in car reviews. Numbers to help sell magazines and cars...product. In "real world driving" whether a car can do 0-60 in 3.5s means nothing...driven on the street, in traffic, along side drivers of different skill/judgment...cars of different abilities...in less than ideal conditions...

Most peoples SPL needs are small. More importantly a good amp should be able to drive low impedance medium sensitivity speakers. If you have a speaker that's over 90db sensitivity 5 watts is dangerously loud in most rooms.

 

[Verdinut]

I agree with everettT. Even if the surround channel amps rating is 50% of the rating of the left & right front channels, that is only 3dB less power.

In movies or any type of concert, most of the audio output comes from the three front channels and the power required for the surround is way less than that. Your question is irrelevant.
On the occasion where an object is moving to the back, there is more power required for the back channels but less from the front ones then.
There is no reason for concern.

 

[PENG]

Also true. The "7ch driven wpc rating" is really just a general guide. Maybe a number that makes the owner feel like he bought an AVR with amps capable of outputting "enough wattage". There are no films where all 7-ch will output the same SPL. . It's usually either just the centre going all out followed by the LR...subs with their own power amp (unless some one opted for a passive)..Still, I am curious to know about the Denon 8500H's "7-ch driven wpc #"...now, more out of curiosity. Is it the same as the Marantz flagship ast 97 wpc inot 8 ohms?

Would a separates power amp like an Emotiva 5-ch output closer to manufacturer's claimed lab tested number than an AVR? Suppose it varies from brand to brand.

It should be more, probably about 115 w x7, 125x5, just an educated guess. As mentioned, those numbers by themselves don't reflect real world performance. Other factors are 1, 2 channel output into 4 ohms, dynamic ratings, distortions at <1 w, and at rated output etc etc.. The Denon has a larger VA rating EI frame transformer (18 lbs) than the Marantz's toroidal one.

 

[PENG]

Audiovision.de measured both.

 

[Old Onkyo]

I’m so confused!

All I want is good clean sound that doesn’t deteriorate when pushed.

The more I read the dumber I get.