What is clipping? What causes it?

Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Why would anyone need more than a 100 watts? A good 100 watt X 2 into 8 Ohms will make your ears bleed at high volume levels. I had amps in the past 500 X 2, many 200 X 2 even monoblock amps. I have to say they really didn't make that much of a difference in sound quality if at all over the amp in my AVR.
Nowadays, 100 watts isn't much. In addition, it all depends on the sensitivity of the speaker to be driven, some speakers are very inefficient. The size of listening room, your listening distance from the speakers, the type of music you listen to are all factors. Classical music requires more dynamic range from amplifiers and speakers. I've heard of one opera recording with a dynamic peak of 35dB above average level, and that means an amplification requirement of over 2000 times the average output!
 
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Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
I'm not so sure about pop music, but most classical musical blu-rays come with DTS HD Master Audio tracks and that means uncompressed audio content. We are at present almost reaching the limit of acceptable dynamic range for home music listening.

Before long, audiophiles will be complaining about too wide dynamic ranges in recordings. They have been used in pro audio for quite a while, but I predict that some companies will be manufacturing audio compressors for home use, it's just a question of time.
 
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davidscott

davidscott

Audioholic Ninja
Nowadays, 100 watts isn't much. In addition, it all depends on the sensitivity of the speaker to be driven, some speakers are very inefficient. The size of listening room, your listening distance from the speakers, the type of music you listen to are all factors. Classical musical requires more dynamic range from amplifiers and speakers. I've heard of one opera recording with a dynamic peak of 35dB above average level, and that means an amplification requirement of over 2000 times the average output!
Yeah listen to the Telerac 1812 Overture with real recorded cannons. Probably needs much more power than you have and it is a real speaker buster. I know I have it on cd with 120 WPC and play it on very low volumes. It used to make my phono cart almost jump out of the grooves on my LP.
 
Old Onkyo

Old Onkyo

Audioholic General
I have my HT system set to what I believe is the best it has ever sounded. I know the numbers on the volume dial are relative to how the system is calibrated. My sweet spot for music playback is absolute ~65. If I turn the volume up to 75 the sound gets dirty/distorted.

What changes do I need to make in order to achieve cleaner sound at high volume levels?
6 months ago I would have said power, after reading this forum for awhile I am now thinking speakers.

HT system:
Onkyo 6.5 receiver
B&W DM 603 S3 - Mains
B&W DM 602 S3 - Surround
B&W LCR 60 S2 - Center
SVS PS1000 - Sub
Samsung UN65NU800D
Stereo system
Onkyo A-SV610 Pro Receiver
Klipsch 4.2 - Main
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
I have my HT system set to what I believe is the best it has ever sounded. I know the numbers on the volume dial are relative to how the system is calibrated. My sweet spot for music playback is absolute ~65. If I turn the volume up to 75 the sound gets dirty/distorted.

What changes do I need to make in order to achieve cleaner sound at high volume levels?
6 months ago I would have said power, after reading this forum for awhile I am now thinking speakers.

HT system:
Onkyo 6.5 receiver
B&W DM 603 S3 - Mains
B&W DM 602 S3 - Surround
B&W LCR 60 S2 - Center
SVS PS1000 - Sub
Samsung UN65NU800D
Stereo system
Onkyo A-SV610 Pro Receiver
Klipsch 4.2 - Main
The speakers aren't the problem. DM 602s and 603s are reasonably good, provided they haven't been damaged or overdriven. They should easily be capable of over 90 dB spl at 6-8 feet.

Granted, they are difficult to drive because of impedance, but their measured performance is quite good.

HT systems' power is only rated for two channels. Most HT systems fatigue under the load of 5 channels or more. So I'd look at ways to resolve that problem first with a HT receiver rated for a four ohm load (not sure what to say there, other than good luck).

Perhaps the HT experts here can point you in the right direction.
 
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Old Onkyo

Old Onkyo

Audioholic General
The speakers aren't the problem. DM 602s and 603s are reasonably good, provided they haven't been damaged or overdriven. They should easily be capable of over 90 dB spl at 6-8 feet.

HT systems' power is only rated for two channels. Most HT systems fatigue under the load of 5 channels or more. So I'd look at ways to resolve that problem first.
Thanks Grim, do I hear you saying more power? 5 channel amp, 200 epic all channels driven?
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Thanks Grim, do I hear you saying more power? 5 channel amp, 200 epic all channels driven?
Not more wattage. This kind of power is not the issue.

You need a HT receiver with an amplifier section capable of driving four ohm loads at low distortion levels. With this effectively in place, you should be able to cleanly deafen yourself in an average sized room with less than 50W per channel.

Dig into amp specs on current delivery. That's shorthand for what kind of grunt an amp has. Since most manufacturers don't advertise this specification much any more (mostly because their power stages are rather pitiful) look for power ratings at 8 ohm and 4 ohm. If the wattage at 4 ohm is double the 8 ohm rating, the amp has a good transformer and enough capacitors to handle heavy loads without fading.

If the amp is only rated down to 6 ohm, it may lack the grunt. If the 6 ohm figure is less than 50% more wattage than the 8 ohm rating, it will likely lack the grunt to make much of a difference in what you're already hearing. Even then, it may have trouble driving four B&Ws whose impedance dip to as low as 3.1 ohms at spots along the audio spectrum.

Think of it this way: You want a vehicle that can pull a heavily loaded trailer. A Ferrari has 600 horsepower (watts) but limited torque (current). A Ford sport truck has only 350 horsepower but gobs of torque. Which one do you think will best do the job? (A: The one with the blue oval).

I'm no HT expert and cannot point you towards a specific product. But amp power stages all work the same way, so what I've outlined above has good bases in fact.
 
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Old Onkyo

Old Onkyo

Audioholic General
Current receiver Onkyo Integra 6.5 claims 100 watts per channel 2channels driven st 8 ohms. Dynamic power, 170 watts 4 ohms front.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
Nowadays, 100 watts isn't much. In addition, it all depends on the sensitivity of the speaker to be driven, some speakers are very inefficient. The size of listening room, your listening distance from the speakers, the type of music you listen to are all factors. Classical musical requires more dynamic range from amplifiers and speakers. I've heard of one opera recording with a dynamic peak of 35dB above average level, and that means an amplification requirement of over 2000 times the average output!
Movies at or near reference can really drive this requirement up too. Average dialog levels are around -27dBfs, that means the loudest sound, be it a gunshot or explosion in a big action movies is going to be 27dB louder than the dialog.

You lose quite a bit of power over a distance, while it's not quite 6dB per doubling in a regular room it's still around 4dB in my experience. Many common home speakers are inefficient, and one caveat manufacturers always leave out is that most speakers experience their lowest impedance from the mid bass region to the lower mid-range (80hz-1khz). It just so happens most content falls in that range too, so in an 8 ohm nominal speaker the mid range may be falling around 6 ohms, requiring 1.5w. Only the best amps will manage to linearly increase power as impedance drops.

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Out of curiosity, and not trying to be difficult (just this once),how did you calculate the power delivered when an amp clips? And we'll assume the amp doesn't have soft clipping circuits.
I’ve heard other numbers also.

I read about the “twice power” from a few people and some online articles while searching about amp clipping and speaker damages.

I don’t think anyone gave a calculated number, just that it could be “twice the amp power”.

So perhaps PENG could give us a calculation.

The main reason I brought it up is because I would also like a definitive answer. :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Because quantity (watts, channels) sells to anyone who can count.

Quality? Neither well understood nor easy to sell because it requires understanding.
Give some examples of quality amps. Is Emotiva high quality?

ADCOM, Sunfire, Rotel?

Are all amps inside AVRs poor quality, including Denon X8500, AVR-5308, etc.? Or just the amps inside AVR that are under $2,000?
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Give some examples of quality amps. Is Emotiva high quality?

ADCOM, Sunfire, Rotel?

Are all amps inside AVRs poor quality, including Denon X8500, AVR-5308, etc.? Or just the amps inside AVR that are under $2,000?
This post demonstrates the lack of understanding of which I spoke. If you understood quality, you wouldn't have to ask.

P.S. It isn't price.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
How do you fix it? What does it sound like?
It happens when the amplifier can't increase it's level to match the music and it sounds like Pete Townsend, almost anywhere on Who's Next.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
You need a HT receiver with an amplifier section capable of driving four ohm loads at low distortion levels. With this effectively in place, you should be able to cleanly deafen yourself in an average sized room with less than 50W per channel.
How did you come to this conclusion, Grim? You have several imprecise terms here, so let's work this a bit. First of all, what are you assuming is an "average sized room"? I suspect you're in Canada, and I don't know what the average sized room would be there, but here in the US, I normally think of about 20x17 feet with a 9 foot ceiling as representative of average in a single family home. (I'm assuming that no one in their right mind listens at deafening levels in an apartment setting.) Assuming the display and the main speakers are on a short wall, I would guess the primary seating position would be about four meters from the display. Maybe a little less. Assuming 4-ohm speakers of average sensitivity - let's say 86db/2.83v/meter, and assuming the large majority of the volume is generated by the main speakers, and assuming a simple fall-off of 3db per doubling of distance, that means 2 watts at 4 ohms will generate about 80db at the listening seat.

Another imprecise term is "deafening", but for action movie HT use, let's say that requires a "loud" average level and peaks 20db higher than the average. (I'm making these numbers up, obviously, but I think they're realistic.) Let's also define "loud" as an 82db average level at the listening seat, so the peaks are 102db. That is quite loud, IMO, so I'll use that as "deafening". I realize average levels that high would only occur during "action scenes", but having endured a demo of a scene from The Expendables, I think this is what some people here have in mind. So, 102db peaks at the listening seat would mean 108db peaks at one meter, so that's about six or seven power doublings to get to 108db from 86db, so 2 watts at one meter becomes something like 256 watts on peaks to hit 102db at the listening seat, assuming seven doublings.

Personally, I don't listen to movies at these levels, but this is the web site where so many people seem to think a 20x17 room might need two 15" ported subwoofers for the LFE. [Half a smiley.]

What do you think of my calculations?
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Yeah listen to the Telerac 1812 Overture with real recorded cannons. Probably needs much more power than you have and it is a real speaker buster. I know I have it on cd with 120 WPC and play it on very low volumes. It used to make my phono cart almost jump out of the grooves on my LP.
If a track causes the stylus to leave the groove, it means the setup is wrong, or the cartridge and tonearm aren't a good match.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
How did you come to this conclusion, Grim? You have several imprecise terms here, so let's work this a bit. First of all, what are you assuming is an "average sized room"? I suspect you're in Canada, and I don't know what the average sized room would be there, but here in the US, I normally think of about 20x17 feet with a 9 foot ceiling as representative of average in a single family home. (I'm assuming that no one in their right mind listens at deafening levels in an apartment setting.) Assuming the display and the main speakers are on a short wall, I would guess the primary seating position would be about four meters from the display. Maybe a little less. Assuming 4-ohm speakers of average sensitivity - let's say 86db/2.83v/meter, and assuming the large majority of the volume is generated by the main speakers, and assuming a simple fall-off of 3db per doubling of distance, that means 2 watts at 4 ohms will generate about 80db at the listening seat.

Another imprecise term is "deafening", but for action movie HT use, let's say that requires a "loud" average level and peaks 20db higher than the average. (I'm making these numbers up, obviously, but I think they're realistic.) Let's also define "loud" as an 82db average level at the listening seat, so the peaks are 102db. That is quite loud, IMO, so I'll use that as "deafening". I realize average levels that high would only occur during "action scenes", but having endured a demo of a scene from The Expendables, I think this is what some people here have in mind. So, 102db peaks at the listening seat would mean 108db peaks at one meter, so that's about six or seven power doublings to get to 108db from 86db, so 2 watts at one meter becomes something like 256 watts on peaks to hit 102db at the listening seat, assuming seven doublings.

Personally, I don't listen to movies at these levels, but this is the web site where so many people seem to think a 20x17 room might need two 15" ported subwoofers for the LFE. [Half a smiley.]

What do you think of my calculations?
Ummm, not in Canada. Is that what my VPN shows, or is it that I occasionally use British spelling? Maybe I grew up in Australia, NZ, UK, India, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Ireland, Kenya, South Africa, etc. etc. :)

(For future reference the size the listening space in my yurt is 23' x 14' x 9', so we're on more or less the same wavelength when using the term "average room").

Let me try to explain using reasonably efficient speakers rated at 90 dB/W/m in a room of the dimensions you provided. When driven by one watt will deliver 90 dB at three feet. If we triple the distance to 9 feet, spl at 1 watt will drop by 12 dB.

Nine feet listening distance is actually too far back for a 20' room. Why would I say this? Because you'll want to place the mains at least one foot from the front wall. Since 9 + 1 = 10, this would put you in the middle of a 20' room, which would be terrible because of modes. One third distance from the front wall (~6.7-7.0 ft would ideal, but might be a bit close for comfortable 70" big screen screen viewing. So let's say 8 feet, but we'll round up to 9 ft to keep the math simple.

To maintain 90 dBA at that distance would require 100w of power. 30W would result in an spl of about 85 dBA from the front speakers. But since there are rear speakers too, one must consider the spl of these too.

The rear speakers in a HT system are typically placed a bit closer to the listener (it avoids nodes and notches, which could be quite significant if everything -- walls and speaker placement -- was symmetrical). So let's put the rear speakers at 3' from the seating position just to keep the math simple.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-distance.htm

Getting 90 dBA spl at 3' would require 1 watt of power. But you likely wouldn't want the rears to be louder than the front. So let's cut the volume down by half, or to 84 dB. So the combined effect of two front drivers @85 dBA + two rear drivers at 84dBA equals an spl of 89.1 dbA... and we haven't even counted the sub woofer into the equation. Nor am I accounting for room gain, which will almost certainly occur with the speaker placement I'm using.

http://www.noisemeters.ca/apps/db-calculator.asp

Since all of the power levels I ever use are Watts RMS (everything else is misleading BS),a quality amp with 30WRMS will have the headroom to reach 60-90 watts dynamically. That's roughly the ratio between RMS and dynamic power figures in most tests.

The National Institute of Safety and Health (NIOSH) claims that sustained listening at 85 dBA will cause permanent hearing damage in 8 hrs. NIOSH also says that 100 dBA will cause permanent hearing damage in 15 minutes or less. Now dBs are log values, but it's reasonable to suggest that 89 dB over three or four hours would cause permanent hearing damage everytime a full length movie was watched at this spl.

So there you have i!

If these calculations were done to a scientific standard, I'd be adding spl of each driver slightly differently using their trigonometric distance. I'd account for the additional spl of the sub and room gain. I'd base my calculations on 8 feet from the front drivers, which would drive spl higher. I'd also graph by frequency because, after all, one must consider Mssrs Fletcher and Munson. The results would show well on a 3D waterfall plot, had I the inclination to do so.

But I digress... the figures I've used do seem good enough to back up my earlier point, but I was off in my head by 1 dB. (I'm normally more off in my head than that, if you ask my friends!).

The trick is getting an amp that can reliably sustain 30W without clipping and with dynamic headroom. This requires a quality amp, which is why I talk quality and fall for the emptiness of a manufacturer's dynamic power rating.

I've provided the links so that you can do your own calculations. You can move the distances around -- there are undoubtedly distances you can use to minimize spl, but the ones I've used are reasonable.

So any reasonable placement of efficient speakers, when combined with a high quality amp capable of delivering and sustaining 30WRMS without clipping, will be able to deliver high sound pressure levels to an average size room.
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Ummm, not in Canada. Is that what my VPN shows, or is it that I'm using British spelling?

I'm not sure you calculated anything, so let me try...

90 dB/W/m speakers. When driven by one watt will deliver 90 dB at three feet. If we triple the distance to 9 feet, spl at 1 watt will drop by 12 dB.
I used 86db/2.83v/m because that's a more average sensitivity than 90db. I also used 4 ohm impedance, because you made a big deal in earlier posts about 4 ohms, and I think most speakers today are closer to 4 ohms than 8 ohms. I also used a 3db falloff factor per doubling of distance to account for room gain, because the 6db you used from the calculator you found is for anechoic measurements. I was also trying to reduce the estimated power required at the listening seat to inject a conservative-leaning fudge factor into my calculations.

9 feet listening distance is actually too far back for a 20' room (as a matter of record, mine is 23'). Why? Because you'll want to place the mains at least one foot from the front wall. Since 9 + 1 = 10, this would put you in the middle of a 20' room, which would be terrible because of modes. One third distance from the front wall (~6.7-7.0 ft would ideal, but might be a bit close for comfortable 70" big screen screen viewing. So let's say 8 feet, but we'll round up to 9 ft to keep the math simple.
Most home systems I've seen use a greater seating distance, so I used 4 meters, or a little less than 13 feet.

To maintain 90 dBA at that distance would require 100w of power.
You lost me here. How do speakers emitting 90db/2.83v/m/8 ohms need 100 watts of power for 90db at 9 feet?

30W would result in an spl of about 85 dBA from the front speakers. But since there are rear speakers too, one must consider the spl of these too.

The rear speakers in a HT system are typically placed a bit closer to the listener (it avoids nodes and notches, which could be quite significant if everything -- walls and speaker placement -- was symmetrical). So let's put the rear speakers at 3' from the seating position just to keep the math simple.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-distance.htm

90 dBA at 3' would require about a watt. But you likely wouldn't want the rears to be louder than the front. So let's cut the volume down by half, or to 84 dB. So the combined effect of two front drivers @85 dBA + two rear drivers at 84dBA equals an spl of 89.1 dbA... and we haven't even counted the sub woofer into the equation. Nor am I accounting for room gain, which will almost certainly occur with the speaker placement I'm using.

http://www.noisemeters.ca/apps/db-calculator.asp
I'm not sure what to do with this. Most side & rear systems I've heard (admittedly few, since I use a 2.0 system for movies) have a very low ratio between front and side/rear sound, so I discounted them in the calculations. 10db wouldn't surprise me, on average. Since sub usage in an HT system is highly variable, and often just an LFE channel, I just left it out. Also, most subs are powered these days.

Since all of the power levels I ever use are Watts RMS (everything else is misleading BS),a quality amp with 30WRMS will have the headroom to reach 60-90 watts dynamically. That's roughly the ratio between RMS and dynamic power figures in most tests.
Which 30w/ch amps can output 90w? There are "quality" 30w/ch amps sold? Where?

Sustained listening at 89 dbA will be deafening because, according to reputable sources. NIOSH claims that sustained listening at 85 dBA will cause permanent hearing damage in 8 hrs. 100 dBA will cause permanent hearing damage in 15 minutes or less. Now dBs are log values, but it's reasonable to suggest that 89 dB over three or four hours would cause permanent hearing damage everytime a full length movie was watched at this spl.

So there you have it. If these calculations were done to a scientific standard, I'd be adding spl of each driver slightly differently using trigonometry. I'd account for the additional spl of the sub and room gain. I'd base my calculations on 8 feet from the front drivers, which would drive spl higher. But the figures I've used are good enough for discussion purposes. Either way, a few WRMS go a long way when using reasonably efficient (90 dB/W/m) loudspeakers.
You've really gone off the rails here. 85db for eight hours? Who listens to 85db average ambient sound level in an HT system for eight hours? I have a relatively accurate sound level app in my phone (I've checked it against my calibrated mic system),and most people seem to listen in the mid-70s decibel range for dialog and movie music, but for action scenes that last several minutes low-to-mid 80s decibels are common. Throw in explosions and I've measured 100db or so, and most of that sound is produced by the L/R speakers. This is why I used 82db average as "very loud" and 20db peaks. This entire discussion you're making, which is based on noise levels and durations that would be mostly encountered in a workplace, seems irrelevant.

As for an 89db *average* level over an entire movie... you can't be serious. Does anyone do that?

I think your argument here, Grim, needs a re-do.
 
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