Mid level Integrated Amp

[BriReeves629]

I am looking for a mid-level Integrated amp for my bedroom to drive a pair of Golden Ear Triton 5 speakers. Room is 15x18 with 11’ ceiling. My main focus will be on sound stage and detail. I am a singer so I listen mostly to vocals and how they are voiced. Any recommendations will help. Budget is $1500.00. Here is my short list so far:

Arcam SA20
Rotel A12

Features required are Bluetooth and Optical Inputs.


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[WaynePflughaupt]

NAD and Yamaha also make integrated amps. You can always get an outboard Bluetooth receiver if one you’re considering doesn’t have one built-in.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[everettT]

The outlaw audio unit gets high marks.
https://outlawaudio.com/products/rr2160.html
Add bluetooth and go. Another route is seperates from emotiva or outlaw in your budget.

 

[PENG]

I am looking for a mid-level Integrated amp for my bedroom to drive a pair of Golden Ear Triton 5 speakers. Room is 15x18 with 11’ ceiling. My main focus will be on sound stage and detail. I am a singer so I listen mostly to vocals and how they are voiced. Any recommendations will help. Budget is $1500.00. Here is my short list so far:

Arcam SA20
Rotel A12

Features required are Bluetooth and Optical Inputs.


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Between the two I'll take the Arcam for sure but a simple all analog integrated amp + a $200 to $300 external Dac will likely offer higher performance based on specs.

 

[BriReeves629]

Between the two I'll take the Arcam for sure but a simple all analog integrated amp + a $200 to $300 external Dac will likely offer higher performance based on specs.

Any recommendations on external DAC?


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[ryanosaur]

Not a user but have heard good things about Schiit Audio. One guy I know swears by his Yggdrasil... but thats a good chunk of change. They have less expensive models, too.

 

[BriReeves629]

Not a user but have heard good things about Schiit Audio. One guy I know swears by his Yggdrasil... but thats a good chunk of change. They have less expensive models, too.

I heard they sound like Schiit... couldn’t resist!


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[PENG]

Any recommendations on external DAC?
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There are many choices, below are just some examples, from $120 (Topping) to $480 (Mojo):

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073TRVL46/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1550707727&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=TOPPING+D30+DSD&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/Dilvpoetry-TOPPING-Decoding-ES9038Q2M-Amplifier/dp/B07BGTHF79/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1550707099&sr=8-13&keywords=topping+dsd+dac
http://www.xduoo.com/xduoo/En/ProductView.Asp?ID=17
http://www.fiio.net/en/products/83/parameters
https://www.project-audio.com/en/product/pre-box-s2-digital/
https://www.amazon.com/Pro-Ject-Pre-Box-S2-Digital/dp/B073WCRZ79/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1550705628&sr=8-13&keywords=usb+dac+es9038
https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/mojo/

They are quite portable, and have near flag ship or flag ship Sabre ES DACs or AKM's ex-flag ship AK4490, and are therefore native DSD capable, often up to DSD512. Many of the DACs build into the $1000-$1500 integrated amps don't have near flagship DAC chips onboard, and the OPAs used in the implementation are likely not as good as those used in the ones I listed above. IMO, integrated amps with onboard DACs in the $700-$1200 range are not good values, I know of at least on that has some of the same ICs used in multichannel receivers. Nothing wrong I guess, but then may as well buy a receiver, even 7.1 AVR, and pretends it has only two channels. The Arcam SA20 seems exceptional, it has the flag ship Sabre DAC, the well regarded ES9038 onboard.

I have the Xduoo XD-5 and chord Mojo, as well as a couple of the much more expensive Oppo's. The $199 Xduoo's sound quality is just as good as the more expensive ones. I also like their socket mounted OPA so you can upgrade it easily, not that it would sound better, but it is fun to swap OP amp.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My main focus will be on sound stage and detail.

There is not going to be a sound quality difference between a mid integrated amp (IA) vs AVR - soundstage/details will be the same in Direct/Through/Bypass mode.

The big pro with IA might be reliability, however I’ve seen Yamaha and Sony AVR lasting 20 years.

The big cons with IA is the weaker power - most AVR will have more power especially in 2CH mode.

And ext DAC is a waste of money since they won’t sound any better than the DAC inside AVR.

 

[PENG]

And ext DAC is a waste of money since they won’t sound any better than the DAC inside AVR.

Imo, integrated amps are relatively poor values yet people (even some experts) believe they, as a rule, "sound" better than receivers, when you and I know that is false. I use my one and only for my desk top system, only because it suit that purpose. You probably noticed that I have used the term you invented, "avr derived" a few times, to describe the Yamaha A-S series low cost integrated amps, first after I read the service manual eargiant posted a while back. Those are practically over priced because of the availability of the deeply discounted cousins (AVRs), but for people who insists on "form follows function", they are the affordable alternatives. Being bias, I wish they had excluded the internal DACs that can compare to many external, even portable ones for under $200.

I would agree external DACs were waste of money because they are typically not the bottleneck for sound quality, but I cannot agree to that as a general statement or rule. I think for some people they are worth having because aside from being portable (many of them), most integrated amps and AVR's build in DACs are not capable to play all forms of available digital files such as DSD512, or even 256, or PCM 384/24. I do NOT believe those highest resolutions are necessary either or would make any audible difference, but I also do not want to limit my choice of recordings/mastering unfortunately. To me, it is sad but true that the top 2 PCM and DSD resolution files have much better chance to be derived from better recordings. If the recording is not good, nothing good can come out of the electronic gear and speakers, period. I do realize that this may not be an important point for people who don't listen to classical music or other genres that are more sensitive to the quality of recordings, so like most things, it depends.

 

[BriReeves629]

Another user recommended a stereo receiver. What are everyone’s thoughts on how something like this Integra would compare to a Rotel or Arcam Integrated Amplifier:

https://g.co/kgs/hR41oU

Certainly from reading the specs, it actually seems like it has more muscle, more connection capabilities including WiFi and more power.


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[John Parks]

Another user recommended a stereo receiver. What are everyone’s thoughts on how something like this Integra would compare to a Rotel or Arcam Integrated Amplifier:

https://g.co/kgs/hR41oU

Certainly from reading the specs, it actually seems like it has more muscle, more connection capabilities including WiFi and more power.


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Yeah, I was thinking about that or the Onkyo if you wanted to stay in the same family. Of the two you put forth, my personal preference would be the Arcam. Also, of late, I have been really interested in the Yamaha R-N803: https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/hifi_components/r-n803/index.html It has a ton of networking features and, simply enough, I am kind of partial towards Yamaha right now as I think my A-S801 integrated amp is superb.

 

[PENG]

Another user recommended a stereo receiver. What are everyone’s thoughts on how something like this Integra would compare to a Rotel or Arcam Integrated Amplifier:

https://g.co/kgs/hR41oU

Certainly from reading the specs, it actually seems like it has more muscle, more connection capabilities including WiFi and more power.


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I have said enough already in this and your other thread, so I'll just say this one more time. That is, as long as it has the features you need, if your goal is sound quality, the the quality of recordings and speakers are far more important than the quality of the electronics between the receivers you have listed so far. So if it was my money, I would focus on acquiring the best available recordings whether they are in cd, sacds, pcm, dsd, mqa etc., and choose the receiver, integrated amp or whatever, based on feature set, reliability track record, price, and obviously the style you preferred. That's just my opinion so hopefully you will get a lot more from other more experienced and knowledgeable members.

 

[BriReeves629]

I have said enough already in this and your other thread, so I'll just say this one more time. That is, as long as it has the features you need, if your goal is sound quality, the the quality of recordings and speakers are far more important than the quality of the electronics between the receivers you have listed so far. So if it was my money, I would focus on acquiring the best available recordings whether they are in cd, sacds, pcm, dsd, mqa etc., and choose the receiver, integrated amp or whatever, based on feature set, reliability track record, price, and obviously the style you preferred. That's just my opinion so hopefully you will get a lot more from other more experienced and knowledgeable members.

Thanks for your input. At the end of the day, I just want to get the most out of my speakers. There seems to be a lot of options out there for 2 channel in the way of electronics.


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[ryanosaur]

Thanks for your input. At the end of the day, I just want to get the most out of my speakers. There seems to be a lot of options out there for 2 channel in the way of electronics.


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What are your speakers? Doesn’t look like they were included in above posts.
I agree with PENG, though, as far as I can tell you aren’t going to find an earth-shattering difference in performance from these electronics, rather focus on getting the right features for your needs, ergonomics, budget, and style.

 

[BriReeves629]

What are your speakers? Doesn’t look like they were included in above posts.
I agree with PENG, though, as far as I can tell you aren’t going to find an earth-shattering difference in performance from these electronics, rather focus on getting the right features for your needs, ergonomics, budget, and style.

GoldenEar Triton 5


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[AcuDefTechGuy]

At the end of the day, whether you use Integrated Amp, Stereo Receiver, AVR, Pre-pro + Amp, Preamp + Amp, in DIRECT or THROUGH or BYPASS mode, the sound will be UNCHANGED and sound extremely similar (insignificant difference).

If you are willing to pay more for a certain brand or type, that's okay too.

One thing I find extremely funny is the power outputs of these high-end integrated amps vs AVR.

For example, the Yamaha RX-A1070 (retails $1300) has a Dynamic Power output of 210W into 4 ohms and 280W into 2 ohms x 2 Channels.

The Yamaha A-S1100 (retails $3,000) has a Dynamic Power of 190W into 4 ohms and 220W into 2 ohms x 2 Channels.

The Integra DTM-6's Dynamic Power is 160W into 4 ohms (vs 210W on Yamaha RX-A1070). There is a dynamic power of 180W into 3 ohms, but no power data for 2 ohms, whereas the Yamaha RX-A1070 can do 280W into 2 ohms.

Assessment: Comparable price (even lower price) AVR's have more power output than their integrated amp and stereo receiver counterparts. The sound quality is equal in Direct/Through/Bypass mode.

Recommendation: Buy an AVR.

 

[ryanosaur]

Ha! Of course right after you re-posted it, I saw it!. Hate using my phone sometimes.

Are you concerned about the Amp stage having enough power? Considering their sensitivity, you only need ~32w to clear reference level peak dynamic range @1m. I can't listen that loud. Is there something else you are concerned with?

 

[BriReeves629]

Ha! Of course right after you re-posted it, I saw it!. Hate using my phone sometimes.

Are you concerned about the Amp stage having enough power? Considering their sensitivity, you only need ~32w to clear reference level peak dynamic range @1m. I can't listen that loud. Is there something else you are concerned with?

I suppose I am concerned with losing sound quality by filtering through too many devices, dongles, etc. I auditioned my speakers on Arcam products so I know they pair extremely well, but do not have the Bluetooth connectivity I am wanting. I listen to most all of my music through my phone, but my wife and I are also planning to get into vinyl.


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[ryanosaur]

OK... but the electronics don't have a 'sound'. Good quality recievers, amps, etc are all supposed to process signal without changing it. They don't add coloration, flavor, or smells... they are designed to preserve the source signal.
The only thing that is going to affect the sound are the transducers: your speakers. And yes, this includes members here saying that they couldn't hear the difference between expensive external DACs vs what came stock in their AVRs or Processors.
I listened to the speakers I bought on a First Watt Amp and a $2400 DAC. I didn't buy those so I could enjoy my speakers when I get them. I'm going to run them through my Marantz and some Outlaw 2200 Amps. And they will sound just as amazing as what I heard in my audition.

For Bluetooth, whether its internal or external, its still a link in the chain. I used a Rocketfish Bluetooth receiver for years... still have it... has analog and digital outs. Cost maybe $20-30. Works fine. I only use it now in a work room to listen to audible, pandora or apple music.
But you say you are worried about signal degradation and want to stream bluetooth over your phone. Sorry, but those two statements are at odds with each other. Your best signal would come over Ethernet direct from your router, then wifi, then bluetooth.

There are already a lot of product recommendations here. I won't try adding to them. But the features, ergonomics, and style are things that only you can determine for yourself. If none of these work for you, then consider going back to the drawing board. Maybe a Stereo Preamp with full features and an External Amplifer would be better suited for your needs. Or an AVR. You don't need to get one with 13-channels, but the feature sets can be very well developed, including bluetooth and a phono stage, as well as good DACs, network connectivity, etc.

Cheers!