Help on the Crown XLS Drive Core Series

[Danzilla31]

Hey guys my dealer gave me a crazy good deal on the Golden Ear 5's for 3 towers

I'm going to give them a shot. Id like to order 2 crown XLS 1502's to drive them. You fellas know how much I like those amps. My question is this

They do cause some tweeter hum when not playing I'm aware this is normal. With the higher sensitivity on the golden ears and the fact they have that AMT tweeter would this be an issue? I'd like to stick with the Crown lineup but would I be better off going with a regular home theater amp?

Also when I turn the gain knob down from max this noise isn't as noticeable.

Turning the gain knob down simply means I need to turn the volume of the AVR up slightly to get the same output am I correct?

If you guys could help me clarify on this Id really appreciate it.

I really don't want to go back to heavy class AB amps that are just backbreaking to put in the racks if I don't have to thanks for your time

 

[ski2xblack]

Also when I turn the gain knob down from max this noise isn't as noticeable.

Turning the gain knob down simply means I need to turn the volume of the AVR up slightly to get the same output am I correct?

You've noticed that by reducing the gains on the amp (thus a hotter input signal required to achieve the same output) and pushing a hotter signal from the pre (thus improving the s/n) you have essentially buried the noise on the incoming signal. Welcome to gain staging. You may be able to completely eliminate residual noise from the tweeter if you further reduce the amp's gain controls, so long as your pre-amp doesn't end up clipping it's output. Usually it takes a genuinely high sensitivity speaker in order for noise (hiss) to be an issue, and yours aren't quite there.

Kinda makes you wonder why all amps don't have some sort of gain or input sensitivity control, doesn't it? Proper gain staging preserves headroom, reduces noise, helps you avoid a volume control with hair-trigger sensitivity, heck it can be used to "teenager-proof" your rig.

 

[Danzilla31]

You've noticed that by reducing the gains on the amp (thus a hotter input signal required to achieve the same output) and pushing a hotter signal from the pre (thus improving the s/n) you have essentially buried the noise on the incoming signal. Welcome to gain staging. You may be able to completely eliminate residual noise from the tweeter if you further reduce the amp's gain controls, so long as your pre-amp doesn't end up clipping it's output. Usually it takes a genuinely high sensitivity speaker in order for noise (hiss) to be an issue, and yours aren't quite there.

Kinda makes you wonder why all amps don't have some sort of gain or input sensitivity control, doesn't it? Proper gain staging preserves headroom, reduces noise, helps you avoid a volume control with hair-trigger sensitivity, heck it can be used to "teenager-proof" your rig.

It looks like I somehow stumbled into a moment of genius despite my ignorance Lol

Man thanks for clarifying that and that makes me feel a whole lot better because I went ahead and ordered 2 of the 1502's!

Thanks a bunch for your input!

 

[Danzilla31]

You've noticed that by reducing the gains on the amp (thus a hotter input signal required to achieve the same output) and pushing a hotter signal from the pre (thus improving the s/n) you have essentially buried the noise on the incoming signal. Welcome to gain staging. You may be able to completely eliminate residual noise from the tweeter if you further reduce the amp's gain controls, so long as your pre-amp doesn't end up clipping it's output. Usually it takes a genuinely high sensitivity speaker in order for noise (hiss) to be an issue, and yours aren't quite there.

Kinda makes you wonder why all amps don't have some sort of gain or input sensitivity control, doesn't it? Proper gain staging preserves headroom, reduces noise, helps you avoid a volume control with hair-trigger sensitivity, heck it can be used to "teenager-proof" your rig.

Man your right it makes you wonder why more companies don't do this. Well that's a good question for another thread!

 

[ski2xblack]

You still need to use caution with such powerful amps. Amplifying a clipped input can put your tweeters at risk just as a clipping amp would, so you don't want to take it too far.

All my amps have some sort of gain control. They're handy. Ubiquitous in the pro-audio realm, unfortunately rare on the consumer side.

 

[Danzilla31]

You still need to use caution with such powerful amps. Amplifying a clipped input can put your tweeters at risk just as a clipping amp would, so you don't want to take it too far.

All my amps have some sort of gain control. They're handy. Ubiquitous in the pro-audio realm, unfortunately rare on the consumer side.

Do you have any recommendations to help me avoid this. This is my first time learning how to utilize gain staging.

My denon X4400H can drive the 1002's I already own to effortless levels nowhere near reference I usually have it at 68 on the volume if I'm really into something 72.

The green lights on the bars barely even come on. I was told the denon X4400H has plenty of juice to drive the XLS series with the 1.4v setting

Any advice on how to properly use gain staging with the Denon and XLS 1502's to where I eliminate tweeter hum and noise but don't clip and destroy my new golden ear 5's tweeters?

Any tips you can give me would be great

 

[Danzilla31]

You still need to use caution with such powerful amps. Amplifying a clipped input can put your tweeters at risk just as a clipping amp would, so you don't want to take it too far.

All my amps have some sort of gain control. They're handy. Ubiquitous in the pro-audio realm, unfortunately rare on the consumer side.

Now I'm so scared I might just keep the gain turned up all the way and just live with the hum Lol

 

[ski2xblack]

I didn't mean to scare you with that last post. No, you should keep the gains at a position that reduces the noise IMO. If the input exhibited significant clipping, you would hear a distinct audible difference for the worse. This would occur at lower levels than a clipping amp so it's a bit less risky, but such conditions still apply more power than an unclipped signal would. If you hear audible loss of fidelity, immediately turn it down and readjust.

As long as your trims aren't tweaked into the positive range (on the Denon),you'll probably have enough voltage on your pre-outs to drive the amp to plenty ridiculous levels. I suspect your Denon's pre-outs have plenty of headroom, but that's a guess.

 

[Danzilla31]

I didn't mean to scare you with that last post. No, you should keep the gains at a position that reduces the noise IMO. If the input exhibited significant clipping, you would hear a distinct audible difference for the worse. This would occur at lower levels than a clipping amp so it's a bit less risky, but such conditions still apply more power than an unclipped signal would), at which point you would immediately turn it down and readjust.

As long as your trims aren't tweaked into the positive range (on the Denon), you'll probably have enough voltage on your pre-outs to drive the amp to plenty ridiculous levels. I suspect your Denon's pre-outs have plenty of headroom, but that's a guess.

Whew! Ok thanks yeah the only trim levels on the denon that are in the positive are the heights everything else is in the negative including subs so I think I'm good. The heights are positive but not a lot within a range of +2 db and they are actually being driven by an old Emotiva UPA - 7 that I have.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

Kinda makes you wonder why all amps don't have some sort of gain or input sensitivity control, doesn't it?

Man your right it makes you wonder why more companies don't do this. Well that's a good question for another thread!

They don’t do it because it really isn’t necessary with home audio equipment. A pro amp, on the other hand, may be driven by anything from a computer output, which has an output of probably less than 0 dBu, to a home theater processor, which can peak above +4 dBu, to a professional mixing console which can peak up to +26 dBu.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[lovinthehd]

Ran across this test of the 1502 today

 

[Danzilla31]

Ran across this test of the 1502 today

That was a very interesting article. Even more so where all the members feedback after. Thanks for the link!

 

[Danzilla31]

Ran across this test of the 1502 today

Hmmmm I Kind off agree with a lot of the members who used it full range in there system. If the measurements create a lot of issues I can't hear them. Someday though I might just go with some more traditional home theater amps more high end and see if I can hear a markable difference. But until then $550 bucks for 2 1502's off of EBay well I'm more then happy with the quality I'm getting vs what I paid for them. For now

 

[Danzilla31]

Ran across this test of the 1502 today

Well just to be on the safe side I ordered a emotiva XPA-3 Gen 3 as well. I'll AB them very closely on the golden ears when they get here and whichever wins the shootout the loser gets flipped for some cash back. I'll hit you up lovin after I AB them tell you what I think I'm curious about that new Emotiva line anyway want to see what it can do

 

[lovinthehd]

Hmmmm I Kind off agree with a lot of the members who used it full range in there system. If the measurements create a lot of issues I can't hear them. Someday though I might just go with some more traditional home theater amps more high end and see if I can hear a markable difference. But until then $550 bucks for 2 1502's off of EBay well I'm more then happy with the quality I'm getting vs what I paid for them. For now

I did it the other way, had a couple nice Carver amps and decided I wanted to check out all the fuss about pro amps, didn't miss a beat when I swapped the Crowns in. YMMV.

 

[Danzilla31]

I did it the other way, had a couple nice Carver amps and decided I wanted to check out all the fuss about pro amps, didn't miss a beat when I swapped the Crowns in. YMMV.

Hah hah! Nice!

 

[Danzilla31]

I didn't mean to scare you with that last post. No, you should keep the gains at a position that reduces the noise IMO. If the input exhibited significant clipping, you would hear a distinct audible difference for the worse. This would occur at lower levels than a clipping amp so it's a bit less risky, but such conditions still apply more power than an unclipped signal would. If you hear audible loss of fidelity, immediately turn it down and readjust.

As long as your trims aren't tweaked into the positive range (on the Denon),you'll probably have enough voltage on your pre-outs to drive the amp to plenty ridiculous levels. I suspect your Denon's pre-outs have plenty of headroom, but that's a guess.

I really really need to thank you for the advice you gave me on gain staging.

I followed your advice and turned the gains back to where the tweeter hum could not be heard.

And I was shocked at how much better the entire front 3 speakers sounded.

I could tell the surrounds and heights were a little out of balance so I trimmed those back to match the fronts.

And it's not night and day but a complete improvement on both highs and and midrange was very noticeable I can drive them up past any sane level Id ever want to listen to or keep them in the 68 to 72 range and they sound the whole system sounds better and much improved. Cleaner and clearer at any volume level

If been having a hard time with the highs on the SVS Primes and this adjustment completely corrected that issue. Just Cleaner at any volume level more detail

The only way to put it is it didn't feel like I was clipping the amp or signal but the system just sounds like it has more room to breath less compressed is the only way I know how to describe it.

Man your advice really helped out some issues I'd been having to the point that I don't think it may have been my prime towers that were the issue. But rather how I was not utilizing them properly with the amp. I can't even see the green bars at all on the clipping meter yet it sounds so clear and clean and composed at any level

I think I understand why but not quiet sure I do but thanks very much for the advice. It really helped

To the point that I may not need to pick up these golden ears on Thursday or Friday like I originally planned. Oh well it's not like I won't be buying more things from that store I may still pick them up and give them a shot tho. Who knows with better treatment of my amps and speakers if they sounded great in the store without proper setup who knows what they could sound like in the home

I'll keep you guys posted thanks again

 

[Kvn_Walker]

Ran across this test of the 1502 today

Thanks for that! @Irvrobinson I know you've been wanting to see some measurements.

Looks like the Ncore amps are leading the Class D pack at this point and time. Unfortunately the price per watt advantage is lost completely with what's on the market right now.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Thanks for that! @Irvrobinson I know you've been wanting to see some measurements.

Looks like the Ncore amps are leading the Class D pack at this point and time. Unfortunately the price per watt advantage is lost completely with what's on the market right now.

I've read their Hypex review. The results are still AES-17 filtered.

 

[Danzilla31]

I've read their Hypex review. The results are still AES-17 filtered.

Hey guys there's also a review and thread on home theater equipment.com from this guy Andrew Robinson that doesn't provide measurements but does provide excellent feedback from his actual use and from customers that use these in real world theater applications.

I don't know how to uplink the thread or I would it's titled I think Crown Drive Core XLS or something like that sorry I can't uplink it

Sounds like in the real world even with some picky users using high quality equipment they couldn't really hear a lot of issues in spite of the fact that these don't measure as well as class AB home theater counterparts

Interesting read to check out if you guys havent