Outlaw X-13s

[everettT]

Chest bass is a bit higher frequencies. One interesting thing is that if you really want that punch-in-the-chest feeling, simply open your mouth. That creates a air passage that resonates the air in your lungs which creates that sensation.

The rifle test shot in The Dark Knight is sweet for some kick, albeit short

 

[snakeeyes]

Chest bass is a bit higher frequencies. One interesting thing is that if you really want that punch-in-the-chest feeling, simply open your mouth. That creates a air passage that resonates the air in your lungs which creates that sensation.

100hz!!! You are making a strong case for bookshelves.

 

[ryanosaur]

@shadyJ : Is there such a thing as two-way subs... where two different drivers are employed, one for extension, and one for mid-bass presence? I know it seems silly in a way, but I'm pretty certain I've seen a large sub somewhere with an extra 8-10" driver or two. Just blanking on where, now.
But the question stands: Foolish?; Feasible, but untested?; or Genius Concept???

 

[Danzilla31]

Cabinet gets my vote... big difference between sealed and ported boxes. Its all tradeoffs. I might build a sealed sub just to try out and see what happens. I can always sell it to recoup cog's then build ported if I can't get it to perform...
I'd like to go all ported on my Philharmonic rig, and maybe build the speakers for the greatroom, all sealed.
For the Phil rig, that would mean getting crossover designs from Dennis to redo my sealed mini-phils, then buy the vented cab and crossover parts... should be doable.
Regardless, that sealed box gives a shallow rolloff and better mid-bass. no two ways about it...

...unless you could make a two-way subwoofer with its own mid-bass woofer built in... hmmmm....

edit: though if I understand it correctly, with multiple sealed subs in a closed room, you will not only get output bonus but also extension bonus from room-gain

Okay the great room is your big room right? I might have missed that but if it's your big room Id have that room all ported the smaller room all sealed

Those Philharmonics are so badass. Would love to hear them someday.

 

[Danzilla31]

@shadyJ : Is there such a thing as two-way subs... where two different drivers are employed, one for extension, and one for mid-bass presence? I know it seems silly in a way, but I'm pretty certain I've seen a large sub somewhere with an extra 8-10" driver or two. Just blanking on where, now.
But the question stands: Foolish?; Feasible, but untested?; or Genius Concept???

Maybe genius in our own minds? Lol

 

[shadyJ]

@shadyJ : Is there such a thing as two-way subs... where two different drivers are employed, one for extension, and one for mid-bass presence? I know it seems silly in a way, but I'm pretty certain I've seen a large sub somewhere with an extra 8-10" driver or two. Just blanking on where, now.
But the question stands: Foolish?; Feasible, but untested?; or Genius Concept???

There was the Velodyne 1812. It used a light, high-sensitivity 12" for the mids, and a heavy, low-Fs 18" for the deep bass. Very cool idea, but Velodyne made it stupid expensive, like 15 or 20k if I remember right. I think there is merit in this approach, but Velodyne's didn't execute it with any practicality on account of its pricing.

Hsu had the MBM-12s which would kind of turn the subwoofers into a 1.5-way system by using the MBM-12s for mids alone, and having their regular subs take the deep bass as well as mid bass too. The idea was that corner-loading the subs tends to bring out deep bass frequencies big time, and near-field seems to bring out the punchiness, so Hsu wanted the user to position their regular subs in the corner and MBMs in the near-field, preferably right behind the listening position. This was especially useful when Hsu was using XBL^2 woofers on their VTF-3 HO and ULS-15 mk1 which didn't have very good midbass sensitivity but very good deep bass performance. Hsu discontinued it because it was a bit complicated to set up, and their move to their current 15"s basically nullified it since their current drivers are so good at everything that they don't have any real weaknesses at all.

 

[ryanosaur]

Maybe genius in our own minds? Lol

genius in our own mind and foolish are oftentimes synonymous.

 

[snakeeyes]

There was the Velodyne 1812. It used a light, high-sensitivity 12" for the mids, and a heavy, low-Fs 18" for the deep bass. Very cool idea, but Velodyne made it stupid expensive, like 15 or 20k if I remember right. I think there is merit in this approach, but Velodyne's didn't execute it with any practicality on account of its pricing.

Hsu had the MBM-12s which would kind of turn the subwoofers into a 1.5-way system by using the MBM-12s for mids alone, and having their regular subs take the deep bass as well as mid bass too. The idea was that corner-loading the subs tends to bring out deep bass frequencies big time, and near-field seems to bring out the punchiness, so Hsu wanted the user to position their regular subs in the corner and MBMs in the near-field, preferably right behind the listening position. This was especially useful when Hsu was using XBL^2 woofers on their VTF-3 HO and ULS-15 mk1 which didn't have very good midbass sensitivity but very good deep bass performance. Hsu discontinued it because it was a bit complicated to set up, and their move to their current 15"s basically nullified it since their current drivers are so good at everything that they don't have any real weaknesses at all.

The VTF3 or VTF15?

 

[snakeeyes]

genius in our own mind and foolish are oftentimes synonymous.

All us reptiles are the same way

@Danzilla31

@ryanosaur

 

[ryanosaur]

Okay the great room is your big room right? I might have missed that but if it's your big room Id have that room all ported the smaller room all sealed

Those Philharmonics are so badass. Would love to hear them someday.

I get it... but building sealed is easier, as well as having better integration for all parts of the system. Ideally, if I could build a monster sealed box capable of 16hz extension and high output, I'd be stoked. But The Law says you can only have two: extension, efficiency, or size. Since I'm willing to sacrifice on size, I should be able to get extension. *fingers crossed.
My room is all about critical listening, and if I get good at building... Really good...
I see the Phils moving out there to the big room. They want space to really operate to their full potential. Thus that could be their home. And I could go sealed in my room. But, to get good extension, you need a bigger box if sealed, and the greatroom can handle that.
Or I find that won't work, and I learn ported and TLs!

 

[ryanosaur]

The VTF3 or VTF15?

Dunno about the older models, but the newer models are the same amps and drivers! Its just box size and tuning that separates them.

 

[ryanosaur]

There was the Velodyne 1812. It used a light, high-sensitivity 12" for the mids, and a heavy, low-Fs 18" for the deep bass. Very cool idea, but Velodyne made it stupid expensive, like 15 or 20k if I remember right. I think there is merit in this approach, but Velodyne's didn't execute it with any practicality on account of its pricing.

Hsu had the MBM-12s which would kind of turn the subwoofers into a 1.5-way system by using the MBM-12s for mids alone, and having their regular subs take the deep bass as well as mid bass too. The idea was that corner-loading the subs tends to bring out deep bass frequencies big time, and near-field seems to bring out the punchiness, so Hsu wanted the user to position their regular subs in the corner and MBMs in the near-field, preferably right behind the listening position. This was especially useful when Hsu was using XBL^2 woofers on their VTF-3 HO and ULS-15 mk1 which didn't have very good midbass sensitivity but very good deep bass performance. Hsu discontinued it because it was a bit complicated to set up, and their move to their current 15"s basically nullified it since their current drivers are so good at everything that they don't have any real weaknesses at all.

So first, I remembered what it was/where I saw it:
Brisance

 

[snakeeyes]

I get it... but building sealed is easier, as well as having better integration for all parts of the system. Ideally, if I could build a monster sealed box capable of 16hz extension and high output, I'd be stoked. But The Law says you can only have two: extension, efficiency, or size. Since I'm willing to sacrifice on size, I should be able to get extension. *fingers crossed.
My room is all about critical listening, and if I get good at building... Really good...
I see the Phils moving out there to the big room. They want space to really operate to their full potential. Thus that could be their home. And I could go sealed in my room. But, to get good extension, you need a bigger box if sealed, and the greatroom can handle that.
Or I find that won't work, and I learn ported and TLs!

Ya you have multiple rooms so lots of possibilities.

 

[ryanosaur]

There was the Velodyne 1812. It used a light, high-sensitivity 12" for the mids, and a heavy, low-Fs 18" for the deep bass. Very cool idea, but Velodyne made it stupid expensive, like 15 or 20k if I remember right. I think there is merit in this approach, but Velodyne's didn't execute it with any practicality on account of its pricing.

Hsu had the MBM-12s which would kind of turn the subwoofers into a 1.5-way system by using the MBM-12s for mids alone, and having their regular subs take the deep bass as well as mid bass too. The idea was that corner-loading the subs tends to bring out deep bass frequencies big time, and near-field seems to bring out the punchiness, so Hsu wanted the user to position their regular subs in the corner and MBMs in the near-field, preferably right behind the listening position. This was especially useful when Hsu was using XBL^2 woofers on their VTF-3 HO and ULS-15 mk1 which didn't have very good midbass sensitivity but very good deep bass performance. Hsu discontinued it because it was a bit complicated to set up, and their move to their current 15"s basically nullified it since their current drivers are so good at everything that they don't have any real weaknesses at all.

So if one were to look at this: it seems an external amp with DSP might be the ideal... being able to power it and use an active crossover might give you more control.
But that said, if you were to go with a built in system, I'm guessing you would have to choose the drivers super carefully to avoid crossing them too close to their resonant frequency which could be tricky since we're talking about such a narrow LF range. Obviously, this would really only be pertinent for systems with less than full range speakers... like B&W 600s or a lot of standmounts come to mind.

But 15K+???!!!!! WTF! You can get Funk for 5-8K. I wonder if Steve81 has mid-bass issues?

 

[shadyJ]

The VTF3 or VTF15?

The older VTF-3s were 12"s. One was the VTF-3 HO with was a 12 in a huge enclosure with massive ports. It used a XBL^2 driver which had a lot of linear throw, but not great sensitivity. That sub has great deep bass output, but not great mid-bass output. If I remember right, it was shortly succeeded by the VTF-3 mk3 which used a more typical driver topology, so decent deep bass and good mid-bass. Hsu still uses that driver platform in the VTF-2 mk5, by the way.

The original VTF15h had a good but not heavy-duty 15" driver that had a very linear response over a relatively wide-band. Its real +/- 3 dB window is basically like 25 Hz to 400 Hz. It was an extremely low-inductance woofer if I recall right and was very well-behaved over its entire operational bandwidth.

The following VTF-3 and VTF15h models that are available currently used the same driver, a heavy-duty 15". It doesn't have quite the bandwidth of the original VTF15h sub, but who cares since pretty much nobody will ever use their sub over 200 Hz, and the present 15"s can do up to 200 Hz fine. But the current 15"s have a ton of throw and extremely good behavior all around. I think if more people understood how good that 15" is, Hsu would sell a lot more than they do now. It's crazy to find a driver that good in subs at those price points.

 

[shadyJ]

So first, I remembered what it was/where I saw it:
Brisance

That is a strange sub, and I have to wonder how well it actually works. The patent it refers to is crazy nonsense. It looks like a poor man's Velodyne 1812. I think there is better potential for a two-way subwoofer design out there.

 

[ryanosaur]

Ya you have multiple rooms so lots of possibilities.

And I have no expectation or misguided delusion that I will beat Dennis at is own game anytime in the next 10yrs. So really, I'm just building for the greatroom.
Admittedly, I just want to experiment with sealed and see what they are capable of. The existing HTIB is sealed... but the reciever is already slated for a reboot. The lady is down for anything not Marantz. she doesn't like the minimal layout. Might be able to get her into Yamaha... but its not gonna be a big deal out there... so maybe 5.x system only... we'll see.

 

[ryanosaur]

That is a strange sub, and I have to wonder how well it actually works. The patent it refers to is crazy nonsense. It looks like a poor man's Velodyne 1812. I think there is better potential for a two-way subwoofer design out there.

And Eric is really sparse on details... but something tells me he's using it in a similar manner... overtone and harmonic transducers? He's gotta be doing mid-bass from that. When I was asking questions about the Double Immpacts, he said I wouldn't need that sub, as the DIs are full range. In retrospect, that's part of my statement above: better suited for speakers that start losing it around 50Hz or higher.

 

[shadyJ]

Here is my idea for a two-way sub: A sealed enclosure with 2 low Fs 12"s or 15"s in a dual opposed alignment that take bass from low frequencies to maybe 50 or 60 Hz. Then a light 10" or 12" mounted in the front that takes over at that point up to 200 or 300 Hz. Such a subwoofer would be very efficient because the power would be divided between ranges where the drivers are most sensitive, instead of pushing power into a driver where there is diminishing returns. The mid-bass driver would probably need to be in an isolated compartment so it doesn't turn into a unintended passive radiator for the deep bass drivers. The 1812 kind of does this, but in a ridiculous way.

 

[ryanosaur]

Here is my idea for a two-way sub: A sealed enclosure with 2 low Fs 12"s or 15"s in a dual opposed alignment that take bass from low frequencies to maybe 50 or 60 Hz. Then a light 10" or 12" mounted in the front that takes over at that point up to 200 or 300 Hz. Such a subwoofer would be very efficient because the power would be divided between ranges where the drivers are most sensitive, instead of pushing power into a driver where there is diminishing returns. The mid-bass driver would probably need to be in an isolated compartment so it doesn't turn into a unintended passive radiator for the deep bass drivers. The 1812 kind of does this, but in a ridiculous way.

Clamshell alignment, or mag-to-mag? I wasn't thinking that, but it makes sense.
All in one cabinet?, but two compartments... exactly what I was thinking, if so.