Outlaw X-13s

[CB22]

I don't normally write very long posts like this but I think the X-13 deserves it. Spent just about the two whole day with the X-13 and here's my findings.


Big boxes indeed. Very glad my friend helped me out. I thought it would only be fair to give the FedEx drive a bottle of water and some snacks for the road.

When I set up, I re-ran ARC and played around with bass management. This is what I ultimately ended up at:

Put a rubber matter under so I could slide it around a bit easier:

Thought the rubber might be messing with the bass. Sure enough, it was, when I removed it I could immediately tell an improvement in SQ.

These subs do very well with deep bass. I felt like I was at a movie theater. No joke. I was running them in EQ 1 mode with 1 port open and then EQ 2 mode 2 ports open (This is the THX ultra mode). I could not hear a lot of difference between one port open and two ports open when watching movies. It seemed like the THX mode may produce a little more bass but not enough for me to be able to tell a big difference. Here are some of the movies I went through that have fun bass content:

I was watching the Dark Knight. There is the scene where the Joker blows up Gotham hospital towards the end of the movie. So when the second hospital explosion right before the Joker hopped on the bus, my empty bottle of water rattled off the table. Craned both subs up to max when watching live, die, repeat, intro. WHoooooo. They handled it fine. Rewatched, some of these scenes in EQ 2 mode with both ports sealed I think I've found the sweet spot. Really like this configuration and it's what I think I'm gonna stick with for a while. Powerful deep bass that hits hard and doesn't distort in the least.


Tweaks/ Acoustic Problems: I now truly understand why people spend a lot of money on bass traps. When watching the U-571 I could totally tell the bass getting overloaded in the right corner of the room and sounded bad. (You guys don't have to tell me my room is an acoustic nightmare, I know) I was able to tell the that bass on the right was running hotter than on the left. (So due to the fact that this room isn't a perfect rectangle, there is a little kitchen area behind where I'm taking the pics.) A lot of the bass gets thrown back there from the left sub. And since the right sub is right by the corner it naturally has a lot more gain. Getting a balance was a bit tricky. So the sub on the right I turned down by ~-8 dB. I could still hear the bass being more localized on the right...a long time goes by............ Ultimately landed here: -18dB on the right + phase 180 | +1dB on the left + phase 0 . Two things got me thinking here since there is such a big difference in gain. #1 Bad sub placement. #2. May get an RCA splitter and get the HSU back in the mix and try running 3 subs. Next weekend I might try pulling the left X-13 so it's directly to the left of my listing position.

Music: my favorite specs for the subs for music are EQ1 mode with both ports sealed. Listened to jazz, classical, rock, rap, etc.. I think rap/ hip hop/ electronic sounds best on these subwoofers. Since these things are so big I found that the soundstage of the music improved a good bit. Since the speakers are now about 1/2 ft + further off the wall. I have no problem with tweeter hight. It's about ~1 foot above my ear whereas on the Sanus 22" stands the RAALs were ear level.

@shadyJ listed to "Flight of the Cosmic Hippo" and would, for the most part, agree with what you wrote. However, I feel like the X-13 doesn't handle the changes in bass notes as "smoothly" as the USL MK2.

My initial thoughts are I think the X-13s are amazing home theater subwoofers. Good thing, I like movies and video games because there's no returning these as I got them b-stock. I think they do a great job with deep bass but it seems hard to find a sweet spot for mid range bass so far. A good example of this mid-range bass that I'm referring to would be the song, "mellow mood" by Wes Montgomery. Take a listen to it. I think the MK2 does a better job at re-producing up-right bass, in a way that tighter and more refined. I wish the X-13 had some sort of "Q-control" similar to the MK2. However, I think the HSU MK2 is a more music inclined subwoofer, especially in the mid bass region. I think jazz/ classical sounds better on the MK2. If you're into for two channel only I don't think I'd recommend these. IMO, the bass on the MK2 is more controlled and pronounced than on the X-13's, even with both ports sealed. Basically, if you have teenagers that live in your home that like sh*tttty electro music you do NOT want them to have even one X-13. I feel like I just brought 250 pounds of glorious rap, electro, and deep movie bass into my house. Here's how I'd visually describe it:

All and all, good two thousand dollar speaker stands that hit hard but I think if I were to do it over again I would have got the VTF-15H MK2 DualDrive Package because it has the "Q control" and I now believe that the HSU subs are more musically inclined because of this. All this got me thinking about my future plans. I think the X-13s were a major upgrade on the HT side of this and a downgrade on the musical side of things. I don't think I'm doing justice to classical and jazz with X-13s. May do the bedroom set up with the BMRs and ULS- MK2 and do some other "wall of sound" type HT speakers to pair with the X-13s when $ permits.

My ratings:
Home theater: A
Music: C+
Value: A

 

[CB22]

@Danzilla31 @snakeeyes Here you go fellas

 

[ryanosaur]

I guess that's the meaning of YMMV! Bummed to hear you're not getting out of them what I am. Perhaps acoustics... dunno. I'm finding mine to be doing just fine with upright bass and small jazz combos.

Thanks for the share, CB!

 

[shadyJ]

Very nice review, CB22! One thing that I would add, having a lot of experience with both the X13 and ULS-15 mk2, is that I think the difference you are hearing is the ULS-15 mk2's emphasis on midbass frequencies (if you run it in EQ2 mode). I think if you ran the ULS-15 mk2 in EQ1 mode and the Outlaw X13 in sealed configuration and set to the THX EQ, you would find the situation flipped around.

 

[CB22]

I think if you ran the ULS-15 mk2 in EQ1 mode and the Outlaw X13 in sealed configuration and set to the THX EQ, you would find the situation flipped around.

Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a shot.

 

[Danzilla31]

@Danzilla31 @snakeeyes Here you go fellas

Excellent review! Hope you get the midbass issue worked out

 

[speakerman39]

@CB22 excellent write-up! At one time like back in 2008 or so I had dual Outlaw LFM1 Pluses. They were placed in a very small room and at times I thought that the room was going to be ripped apart. The Pluses were more similar to the X-12's than the 13's. So, I know you have one very nice setup. Thanks for taking the time to do this. It should be very helpful to those" on the fence" so to speak.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[KEW]

I don't normally write very long posts like this but I think the X-13 deserves it. Spent just about the two whole day with the X-13 and here's my findings.


Big boxes indeed. Very glad my friend helped me out. I thought it would only be fair to give the FedEx drive a bottle of water and some snacks for the road.

View attachment 28162


When I set up, I re-ran ARC and played around with bass management. This is what I ultimately ended up at:

View attachment 28163

Put a rubber matter under so I could slide it around a bit easier:
View attachment 28164

Thought the rubber might be messing with the bass. Sure enough, it was, when I removed it I could immediately tell an improvement in SQ.

These subs do very well with deep bass. I felt like I was at a movie theater. No joke. I was running them in EQ 1 mode with 1 port open and then EQ 2 mode 2 ports open (This is the THX ultra mode). I could not hear a lot of difference between one port open and two ports open when watching movies. It seemed like the THX mode may produce a little more bass but not enough for me to be able to tell a big difference. Here are some of the movies I went through that have fun bass content:

View attachment 28165

I was watching the Dark Knight. There is the scene where the Joker blows up Gotham hospital towards the end of the movie. So when the second hospital explosion right before the Joker hopped on the bus, my empty bottle of water rattled off the table. Craned both subs up to max when watching live, die, repeat, intro. WHoooooo. They handled it fine. Rewatched, some of these scenes in EQ 2 mode with both ports sealed I think I've found the sweet spot. Really like this configuration and it's what I think I'm gonna stick with for a while. Powerful deep bass that hits hard and doesn't distort in the least.


Tweaks/ Acoustic Problems: I now truly understand why people spend a lot of money on bass traps. When watching the U-571 I could totally tell the bass getting overloaded in the right corner of the room and sounded bad. (You guys don't have to tell me my room is an acoustic nightmare, I know) I was able to tell the that bass on the right was running hotter than on the left. (So due to the fact that this room isn't a perfect rectangle, there is a little kitchen area behind where I'm taking the pics.) A lot of the bass gets thrown back there from the left sub. And since the right sub is right by the corner it naturally has a lot more gain. Getting a balance was a bit tricky. So the sub on the right I turned down by ~-8 dB. I could still hear the bass being more localized on the right...a long time goes by............ Ultimately landed here: -18dB on the right + phase 180 | +1dB on the left + phase 0 . Two things got me thinking here since there is such a big difference in gain. #1 Bad sub placement. #2. May get an RCA splitter and get the HSU back in the mix and try running 3 subs. Next weekend I might try pulling the left X-13 so it's directly to the left of my listing position.

Music: my favorite specs for the subs for music are EQ1 mode with both ports sealed. Listened to jazz, classical, rock, rap, etc.. I think rap/ hip hop/ electronic sounds best on these subwoofers. Since these things are so big I found that the soundstage of the music improved a good bit. Since the speakers are now about 1/2 ft + further off the wall. I have no problem with tweeter hight. It's about ~1 foot above my ear whereas on the Sanus 22" stands the RAALs were ear level.

@shadyJ listed to "Flight of the Cosmic Hippo" and would, for the most part, agree with what you wrote. However, I feel like the X-13 doesn't handle the changes in bass notes as "smoothly" as the USL MK2.

View attachment 28166



My initial thoughts are I think the X-13s are amazing home theater subwoofers. Good thing, I like movies and video games because there's no returning these as I got them b-stock. I think they do a great job with deep bass but it seems hard to find a sweet spot for mid range bass so far. A good example of this mid-range bass that I'm referring to would be the song, "mellow mood" by Wes Montgomery. Take a listen to it. I think the MK2 does a better job at re-producing up-right bass, in a way that tighter and more refined. I wish the X-13 had some sort of "Q-control" similar to the MK2. However, I think the HSU MK2 is a more music inclined subwoofer, especially in the mid bass region. I think jazz/ classical sounds better on the MK2. If you're into for two channel only I don't think I'd recommend these. IMO, the bass on the MK2 is more controlled and pronounced than on the X-13's, even with both ports sealed. Basically, if you have teenagers that live in your home that like sh*tttty electro music you do NOT want them to have even one X-13. I feel like I just brought 250 pounds of glorious rap, electro, and deep movie bass into my house. Here's how I'd visually describe it:


View attachment 28167


All and all, good two thousand dollar speaker stands that hit hard but I think if I were to do it over again I would have got the VTF-15H MK2 DualDrive Package because it has the "Q control" and I now believe that the HSU subs are more musically inclined because of this. All this got me thinking about my future plans. I think the X-13s were a major upgrade on the HT side of this and a downgrade on the musical side of things. I don't think I'm doing justice to classical and jazz with X-13s. May do the bedroom set up with the BMRs and ULS- MK2 and do some other "wall of sound" type HT speakers to pair with the X-13s when $ permits.

My ratings:
Home theater: A
Music: C+
Value: A
View attachment 28168

Great post!
I am very curious how the suggestion James made will work out!
I was of the mind that these have enough tuning options to be able to mimic the performance of a good sealed sub for use with music.
Depending on your results, I like the idea of the dedicated music system.
I see you have Klipsch RP surrounds. I don't know if that is what you had before the BMR's, but I, personally like the nature of the Klipsch speakers for a dedicated HT system, and the BMR are perfect for music.
The Klipsch add a bit of excitement to any action movie that I like to have!

 

[speakerman39]

@CB22 my Pluses were very good w/music and HT. Perhaps the X13 is tuned lower giving up some upper midbass, no? IIRC, my room was very small like 160 ft^2. Perhaps, that may explain it. From Shady's review it is easy to see that the X13 is a much more capable sub than that of the LFM-1Plus. The glass top sure was nice.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[shadyJ]

The X13's might be loading the room a bit differently than the ULS-15 mk2 as well, since they are down-firing. In that way the floor is adding a new design element to the sub, if only slightly, that will inevitably lower the system resonant frequency. What will really tell the tale is measurements; what kind of response did the ULS have vs the response of the X13s? My guess is that the X13s are really promoting room gain around 40 to 50 Hz giving them a thicker sound than the ULS-15. I think it could be solved by equalization, but it would help to know the room response first.

 

[CB22]

I think if you ran the ULS-15 mk2 in EQ1 mode and the Outlaw X13 in sealed configuration and set to the THX EQ, you would find the situation flipped around.

Yes! Thx. this helped a lot. But I still the the ULS-15 has a sweeter mid bass. I'm still hearing that deeper bass.

the X13s are really promoting room gain around 40 to 50 Hz giving them a thicker sound than the ULS-15.

Yep, your spot on. "thicker" is a perfect word to describe it.

it would help to know the room response first.

How would I go about finding this? Then what would I use to EQ the bass? How would that work with my current AVR set up?

Perhaps the X13 is tuned lower giving up some upper midbass, no?

Perhaps it could be. IDK. Maybe that's how Outlaw made em.

I see you have Klipsch RP surrounds. I don't know if that is what you had before the BMR's, but I, personally like the nature of the Klipsch speakers for a dedicated HT system,

I actually sold off the last of the Klipsch two weeks ago. Currently running a 3.2. When I go back to surround it with be with dome tweeters. I actually became kinda turned off to horn loaded tweeter after owing them. IMO, their crazy treble heavy. The only pair of Klipsch that I'd like to own one day would the La Scala's. I hear their great for the late night Jazz, which I'm into and apparently do a super job with re-producing saxophones.

 

[Danzilla31]

Yes! Thx. this helped a lot. But I still the the ULS-15 has a sweeter mid bass. I'm still hearing that deeper bass.



Yep, your spot on. "thicker" is a perfect word to describe it.



How would I go about finding this? Then what would I use to EQ the bass? How would that work with my current AVR set up?



Perhaps it could be. IDK. Maybe that's how Outlaw made em.



I actually sold off the last of the Klipsch two weeks ago. Currently running a 3.2. When I go back to surround it with be with dome tweeters. I actually became kinda turned off to horn loaded tweeter after owing them. IMO, their crazy treble heavy. The only pair of Klipsch that I'd like to own one day would the La Scala's. I hear their great for the late night Jazz, which I'm into and apparently do a super job with re-producing saxophones.

That's interesting you just posted that I was at my audio store today demoing speakers about ready to purchase again and I had a shootout with the SVS prime towers and the Klipsch RP8000f. This was a straight up AB instant switching back and forth between each speaker even in the middle of songs. I was SHOCKED to find that I liked the Klipsch over the primes. They have them on sale right now for $480 a tower.

I still have to AB them at home before I can know for sure but I liked them enough to be considering a trial run in my house. Which my sales guy was cool with me doing. My only concern is I might like them at first but later on like you stated get tired of them if there too bright. So your comments on them were very interesting and insightful I'll have to keep that in mind when I go back Wednesday to shoot out a couple more speaker brands and give them a listen again

 

[snakeeyes]

Thanks for the detailed write up. It can take a while to integrate new subs so at 2 days, there’s still plenty of hope. I’m a big fan of HSU though and even my “little” HSU VTF2.5 subs have excellent mid bass.

 

[snakeeyes]

That's interesting you just posted that I was at my audio store today demoing speakers about ready to purchase again and I had a shootout with the SVS prime towers and the Klipsch RP8000f. This was a straight up AB instant switching back and forth between each speaker even in the middle of songs. I was SHOCKED to find that I liked the Klipsch over the primes. They have them on sale right now for $480 a tower.

I still have to AB them at home before I can know for sure but I liked them enough to be considering a trial run in my house. Which my sales guy was cool with me doing. My only concern is I might like them at first but later on like you stated get tired of them if there too bright. So your comments on them were very interesting and insightful I'll have to keep that in mind when I go back Wednesday to shoot out a couple more speaker brands and give them a listen again

Cool. What brands are you able to demo there at the same time?

 

[Danzilla31]

Cool. What brands are you able to demo there at the same time?

Anything they have I can shoot out they'll just pick one speaker set up and move it to the other room where the other set are at. Exceptions being the crazy big heavy speakers of course

The have golden ear B&W SVS Klipsch there's a best buy magnolia store the biggest one and they also have some other brands as well paradigm kef and one or two others in that store. Although they won't move speakers around and do a shootout like Bjorn's will.

 

[shadyJ]

Yes! Thx. this helped a lot. But I still the the ULS-15 has a sweeter mid bass. I'm still hearing that deeper bass.



Yep, your spot on. "thicker" is a perfect word to describe it.



How would I go about finding this? Then what would I use to EQ the bass? How would that work with my current AVR set up?



Perhaps it could be. IDK. Maybe that's how Outlaw made em.

Like I said, the down-firing design could be loading the room differently, even though both the Hsu and Outlaw subwoofers have a natively flat response. What you need to do is measure the response to see what is actually occurring. I would look at getting a USB measurement mic like a Umik-1 or something along those lines (it will need to be connected to a computer, and you will need to download Room EQ Wizard). Something like the MiniDSP could be used to equalize the response.

Something else that could be causing problems is that if you are running ARC, you simply might not like the target curve that it is using. Try turning off ARC and then adjusting the subs to taste.

 

[shadyJ]

That's interesting you just posted that I was at my audio store today demoing speakers about ready to purchase again and I had a shootout with the SVS prime towers and the Klipsch RP8000f. This was a straight up AB instant switching back and forth between each speaker even in the middle of songs. I was SHOCKED to find that I liked the Klipsch over the primes. They have them on sale right now for $480 a tower.

I still have to AB them at home before I can know for sure but I liked them enough to be considering a trial run in my house. Which my sales guy was cool with me doing. My only concern is I might like them at first but later on like you stated get tired of them if there too bright. So your comments on them were very interesting and insightful I'll have to keep that in mind when I go back Wednesday to shoot out a couple more speaker brands and give them a listen again

The RP-8000F IS surprising.. I don't want to say too much more since there is a review forthcoming, but all I will say is I am not surprised you like them so much...

 

[shadyJ]

Thanks for the detailed write up. It can take a while to integrate new subs so at 2 days, there’s still plenty of hope. I’m a big fan of HSU though and even my “little” HSU VTF2.5 subs have excellent mid bass.

Like you implied, the funny thing is most people wold consider the VTF-2s to be huge! Their mid-bass output is phenomenal for the cost, certainly.

 

[Danzilla31]

Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a shot.

Hey I also noticed that the LPF of your LFE on your screen saver for settings was set to 80hz. I thought that was supposed to be set to 120hz? Its a long shot but that might be an issue as well

 

[Danzilla31]

The RP-8000F IS surprising.. I don't want to say too much more since there is a review forthcoming, but all I will say is I am not surprised you like them so much...

Man that's cool! I won't say too much about what I experienced then till your review. But I'm glad to know it just wasn't in my head. What I'm really stoked about is that I really liked Klipsch when I was young my dad owned Klipsch and I grew up on them. But then they kind off went downhill except for the Super expensive top end of the line. These price points on there new line plus what I heard yesterday I may just have to return to my roots