Need a 5 channel amp.

[ryanosaur]

- If you do try and use power consumption to do calculate current, do not based on Watts/Voltage, but multiply it by at least 1.25, that is 1.25 X Power consumption in watts/Voltage. You can skip the multiplication factor if the consumption is given in VA (volt-amp). That is because the power factor (cosine of the phase angle between the voltage and current phasors) for class AB amps typically should be between 0.7 to 0.85 (my guessimate only).

OK.
Not ashamed to say: this is over my head. My dad is the EE. I'm a Saxophonist and Chef. AND... this is why I like chatting with you!
What is the Power factor? Almost seems like a measure of operating efficiency? So in that case, multiply watts of power consumption x1.25, then divide by 120 to get the amps drawn? If I do that to the Monolith 5, I get 18.75a, not 15. (hence why I ask for clarification, please.) I did read about it, but that bit of theory was a little deep for me right now. *blushes
Also, as I look over the three amps (m2200, xpa5, mono5) what are the benefits of each type of amp? They are all AB as the base, right? But the Outlaw is AB-G, and the Emo is AB-H. What about the benefit of just giving each speaker its own power supply, does that really make a difference?

Thanks all!

 

[PENG]

OK.
Not ashamed to say: this is over my head. My dad is the EE. I'm a Saxophonist and Chef. AND... this is why I like chatting with you!
What is the Power factor? Almost seems like a measure of operating efficiency? So in that case, multiply watts of power consumption x1.25, then divide by 120 to get the amps drawn? If I do that to the Monolith 5, I get 18.75a, not 15. (hence why I ask for clarification, please.) I did read about it, but that bit of theory was a little deep for me right now. *blushes
Also, as I look over the three amps (m2200, xpa5, mono5) what are the benefits of each type of amp? They are all AB as the base, right? But the Outlaw is AB-G, and the Emo is AB-H. What about the benefit of just giving each speaker its own power supply, does that really make a difference?

Thanks all!

As someone pointed out in another post, the Monolith 5X200 has a 1025 VA and a 800 VA transformer, the 1250 VA in their advertised spec appeared to be an error but you would have to ask Monolith to confirm that if you want to be sure.

Using the transformer VA rating to calculate the rated current does not involve power factor because:

VA = Voltage (V) X Current (A),so Current (A) = VA/V, for the Monolith 5X, if the transformers are in fact rated 1025 VA and 800 VA, then (1025+800)/120 = 15.21 A.

Using Watt (W) to calculate current, does require the power factor, because:

Watt (W) = Voltage (V) X Current (A) X power factor, more accurately speaking, there is a distortion factor too but in most cases we can ignore that one, at least for conversations on forum such as this.

There are complications in both cases described above.

Using VA
1. Manufacturers don't normally tell you the rated VA of the transformers used. Monolith is among the very few that do, but I high doubt their accuracy, as evident in the Monolith 5X specs.

2. Even if they provided accurate VA rating of the transformers, in general they have fantastic overload capability, but some are better than others so it is hard to apply any rule of thumb. For example, a transformer rated for 5 A, 600 VA, 120 V can sustain 7-8 A for some time, and even much higher for short duration such as seconds.

Using W (watt)
1. Manufacturers typically provide some sort of power consumption figures in watts, but they never tell you their measurement protocol and/or standards they follow, at least I have never seen one.

For example:
Denon AVR-X4400H and Marantz SR-7012 specified power consumption...........710 W
Yamaha RX-A2070.....................................................................................................400 W (Maximum 1210 W)

So how would you like to compare the two?

And by the way, if you search for the images of the back of the Monolith amps, there are inconsistencies, some Monolith 2X shows 960 W, some 1800 W, I found similar confusion in the circuit breaker, e.g. the 5X, 7X, both have 15 A breakers. Enough examples already??

Now, you are bring fusing into the pictures and that's more confusion for sure because:

1. There are many types of fuses, some are fast acting, others are designed for different delay characteristics.
2. Same for circuit breakers, but in additional to over current time/current characteristics, some of them also offer thermal protection and therefore also have more complicated time/current characteristics.
3. There are standard sizes of fuse and circuit breakers. Just because a transformer is rated to 14A, does not mean it will be protected by a 14 A breaker, because the nearest standard size is 15 A.

From the above cited reasons (there are others),it means the choice of different fuses or circuit breakers will affect and determine the fuse sizes and circuit breaker ratings. Electrical authorities recognize that, and so they do allow a range. For example, if the transformer is rated for 10 A, you may use fuses rated anywhere between as low as 10 and may be as high as 25 A, depending on the application and other factors.

Lastly, you asked about power factor, I don't really like length posts but to answer your questions it seems necessary, but for the definition of power factor you can simply Google it. Below is just a link to a simple explanation, one of many many....

https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/accircuits/power-triangle.html

It is better for you to read up on the internet first, and come back with specific questions after..

 

[ryanosaur]

Lastly, you asked about power factor, I don't really like length posts but to answer your questions it seems necessary, but for the definition of power factor you can simply Google it. Below is just a link to a simple explanation, one of many many....

https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/accircuits/power-triangle.html

It is better for you to read up on the internet first, and come back with specific questions after..

I did. And will some more. Thank you for taking the time to go over so much. I keep learning. and will keep learning. Cheers, Peng

 

[snakeeyes]

The WAF changed from a go on the big room. So it’s my smaller “office” at about 2000’3.
For the first 5-6 mos... I’m using BMRs up front, Sealed Mini Phil on the sides and old style AAs as rears. The center BMR will stay, but everything else is going to move around back a channel when the 3’s arrive. And I’ll get one more pair of AAs to round out .4 Atmos.
Since all agree that the front three speakers should be voice- and even amp- matched, I figured I’d do what I can to keep that going for 5.1 audio application.
Might be overkill, but I’m much heavier into music listening than I am HT. Just like the two x13s are potentially overkill. But organ and percussion will kill on this rig.
And as I explore more HT by getting into Atmos, I’ll get to experience the whole of it.
Take the Phil 3s out of the equation, and the basic rig I’m buying is probably the best value hi-fi starter set I could put together.
The amp is the last part of the puzzle.

I don’t have any external amps but the Outlaw is the one I would try. The front 3 could be Outlaw M2200 monoblocks. I think your receiver might do ok running the rest on its own and if not, add more M2200 amps later. (Might need an extra circuit from your breaker panel though) And that would be a lot of power cords if it takes 5 instead of 3 amps

As far as Atmos, I would do 4 in ceiling speakers. Good luck!

Edit: I would assume it would be wise to install an extra circuit or 2 regardless of what amp you end up with. The subs are beefy as well.

 

[ryanosaur]

I don’t have any external amps but the Outlaw is the one I would try. The front 3 could be Outlaw M2200 monoblocks. I think your receiver might do ok running the rest on its own and if not, add more M2200 amps later. (Might need an extra circuit from your breaker panel though) And that would be a lot of power cords if it takes 5 instead of 3 amps

As far as Atmos, I would do 4 in ceiling speakers. Good luck!

Ya... wooden cathedral ceiling. Well, 1/2-cathedral, sloping upwards from North to South, with clerestory windows. So I'm using hardware to hang the Affordable Accuracys. but that'll be 6 mos out.

Amps, if I can get the dedicated lines, I ain't scared of the spaghetti.
I know the Emo will give me a litle extra juice over the others. The Outlaws will give each speaker their own power, which I like the idea of.
Still need to grok the difference between the G and H classes better.
The Monolith is a strong contender but even though I don't have XLR on my 6012, its a shift I see making when the upgrade bug bites... so balanced inputs...
Saw the discussion about them re: monolith just having the inputs but not being tru balanced... Are the other two truly balanced?

 

[snakeeyes]

Ya... wooden cathedral ceiling. Well, 1/2-cathedral, sloping upwards from North to South, with clerestory windows. So I'm using hardware to hang the Affordable Accuracys. but that'll be 6 mos out.

Amps, if I can get the dedicated lines, I ain't scared of the spaghetti.
I know the Emo will give me a litle extra juice over the others. The Outlaws will give each speaker their own power, which I like the idea of.
Still need to grok the difference between the G and H classes better.
The Monolith is a strong contender but even though I don't have XLR on my 6012, its a shift I see making when the upgrade bug bites... so balanced inputs...
Saw the discussion about them re: monolith just having the inputs but not being tru balanced... Are the other two truly balanced?

If you can successfully add external amps and not introduce any noticeable hiss, you are winning.

 

[PENG]

The Monolith is a strong contender but even though I don't have XLR on my 6012, its a shift I see making when the upgrade bug bites... so balanced inputs...
Saw the discussion about them re: monolith just having the inputs but not being tru balanced... Are the other two truly balanced?

In my opinion, the so called truly/fully balanced thing is theoretically advantages if done right, but also introduce more parts and complexity for no audible benefits. It also does not even mean a low cost fully balanced amp will test better on the test bench. I used to recommend Monolith amps unconditionally based on price/performance ratio. Recently I am becoming more and more skeptical, and think they are unnecessarily heavy, just like their maker. As always, YMMV..

 

[ryanosaur]

In my opinion, the so called truly/fully balanced thing is theoretically advantages if done right, but also introduce more parts and complexity for no audible benefits. It also does not even mean a low cost fully balanced amp will test better on the test bench. I used to recommend Monolith amps unconditionally based on price/performance ratio. Recently I am becoming more and more skeptical, and think they are unnecessarily heavy, just like their maker. As always, YMMV..

Again, thank you for the input.

Are you still happy with your 2200?

 

[PENG]

Again, thank you for the input.

Are you still happy with your 2200?

I am, runs cool and quiet.

 

[AVTNY]

Hello group!

This is what I have now:
McIntosh MX135, pre amp with RCA/XLR outs.
McIntosh MC126, amplifier 80 watts x 6
B&W 683 fronts, HTM61, 684 rear, Supercube reference x 2.
I want to replace that amp, it sounds great to me, but it's not very powerful. (I can not bridge it to 275w x 3 because B&W go as low as 3ohms)
I cant afford a MC205.
So what is there that is not going to break the bank?
I really like how my MC126 sounds, specially when listening to stereo sound, its really good. (To me)
Rotel 1585?
Monolith 200x5??
Emotiva???
Old Parasound or old Krell????
Or do I have to wait and try to get a Mcintosh amp?

Thank you!!

Hi all,
My first post here.
I have same issue as OP I was researching on.
Did you figure out & tested a good matching amp for your configuration?

I have bought a Denon X4500H AVR & 5 X B&W 683 S2 Speakers and more 684 Bookshelf speakers. I did a temporary test. AVR connected with 3 X 683 S2 units as front L/C/R and 2 X 684 as Surrounds in a bit larger room in my basement. I feel that I need to run volume of AVR to about level 85 to get good level defined audio. After operating for 15 minutes I feel AVR is fairly warm. Also thinking that AVR is not operating upto the potential of the speakers. This will probaby get worse once other channels and ATMOS connected. Lot of B&W owners talk about speakers being too picky for amplifier brands. If I want to run at least front L/C/R or more on separate Amps,

Appreciate input from all had such experience.

 

[everettT]

Hi all,
My first post here.
I have same issue as OP I was researching on.
Did you figure out & tested a good matching amp for your configuration?

I have bought a Denon X4500H AVR & 5 X B&W 683 S2 Speakers and more 684 Bookshelf speakers. I did a temporary test. AVR connected with 3 X 683 S2 units as front L/C/R and 2 X 684 as Surrounds in a bit larger room in my basement. I feel that I need to run volume of AVR to about level 85 to get good level defined audio. After operating for 15 minutes I feel AVR is fairly warm. Also thinking that AVR is not operating upto the potential of the speakers. This will probaby get worse once other channels and ATMOS connected. Lot of B&W owners talk about speakers being too picky for amplifier brands. If I want to run at least front L/C/R or more on separate Amps,

Appreciate input from all had such experience.

Always a good idea to start a new thread fyi.

How large is your room how and far do you sit from the speakers? AVRs run warm, as thats normal. How much clearance do you have above it?

85 on the volume scale is relative, so that may be fine for you situation.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

As for B&W owners having external amps, I'm sure a lot of it is not necessary. If you really want to improve your setup consider new speakers

 

[AVTNY]

Always a good idea to start a new thread fyi.

How large is your room how and far do you sit from the speakers? AVRs run warm, as thats normal. How much clearance do you have above it?

85 on the volume scale is relative, so that may be fine for you situation.

As for B&W owners having external amps, I'm sure a lot of it is not necessary. If you really want to improve your setup consider new speakers

Thanks for the link to the calculator.
Original thread was started for the very same question I had.
Given the quality of sounds from B&W speakers, I do not want to change them. I am trying to make them work changing other equipment if necessary.
Issue is that, I do not have my dedicated room walls completed yet. So I am testing them in a large space in the basement. So it is hard to get finished product feeling at this time.
A lot of people talk about Rotel amps being a good match for B&W. However I am not sure whether it is worth the price to pay for them.
AVR is sitting on a completely open space for testing.

 

[everettT]

Thanks for the link to the calculator.
Original thread was started for the very same question I had.
Given the quality of sounds from B&W speakers, I do not want to change them. I am trying to make them work changing other equipment if necessary.
Issue is that, I do not have my dedicated room walls completed yet. So I am testing them in a large space in the basement. So it is hard to get finished product feeling at this time.
A lot of people talk about Rotel amps being a good match for B&W. However I am not sure whether it is worth the price to pay for them.
AVR is sitting on a completely open space for testing.

I have nothing against Rotel, but amps matching certain speakers is rubbish. Since BW and Rotel are aligned in distribution, your gonna hear that. If you want to off load some of the burden I'd look a Monoprice Monolith for value (made by ati) outlaw audio, ati, pro amps like QSC cinema series. Dont over spend on power by name, unless you are buying for looks

The reason for a new thread is you situation is different, regardless of some of the gear being the same. It keeps things clean and is beneficial to all.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

1. I feel that I need to run volume of AVR to about level 85.
2. After operating for 15 minutes I feel AVR is fairly warm.
3. Also thinking that AVR is not operating up to the potential of the speakers.
4. This will probably get worse once other channels and ATMOS connected.
5. Lot of B&W owners talk about speakers being too picky for amplifier brands.

1. Does NOT mean you need more power.
2. Dose NOT mean you need more power. Just add two 120mm fans atop the AVR.
3. How do you know?
4. Probably not, since surround speakers (especially small ceiling Atmos speakers) don't require or can even handle much power.
5. A lot of nonsense out there. If their speakers suck, don't blame it on the amps.

 

[lovinthehd]

Hi all,
My first post here.
I have same issue as OP I was researching on.
Did you figure out & tested a good matching amp for your configuration?

I have bought a Denon X4500H AVR & 5 X B&W 683 S2 Speakers and more 684 Bookshelf speakers. I did a temporary test. AVR connected with 3 X 683 S2 units as front L/C/R and 2 X 684 as Surrounds in a bit larger room in my basement. I feel that I need to run volume of AVR to about level 85 to get good level defined audio. After operating for 15 minutes I feel AVR is fairly warm. Also thinking that AVR is not operating upto the potential of the speakers. This will probaby get worse once other channels and ATMOS connected. Lot of B&W owners talk about speakers being too picky for amplifier brands. If I want to run at least front L/C/R or more on separate Amps,

Appreciate input from all had such experience.

Welcome to the forums. Hard to know if your issue is really the same and a new thread for your own unique situation is probably better.

Will you not be using subs? How large is the room you're testing in? Once built, what size room will it be? What temperature is "warm" for the avr? Warm isn't a bad thing, hot could be though, but specifics would probably help. Did you calibrate the avr? Is the volume level of 85 a minimum for what you call "good level defined audio"? If so how much louder would you like it to be?

Might consider using the relative rather than absolute scale for comparisons, here's an article on it https://denon.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/136/~/relative-and-absolute-volume-ranges.

A power amp might be something to consider but sounds a bit pre-mature now. The Rotel marketing angle with B&W can safely be ignored as was mentioned, lots of good amplification out there with a variety of brands. The whole pairing nonsense I guess came from wine sales.

 

[ryanosaur]

Sound is the purview of the transducers... the speakers. Everything else is just an electrical signal. If you don't like the sound, a new amp or avr or $1000 cables won't change that.

This seems like the fifth time in just the last two months I've seen this basic question posed by people with B&Ws. Hmmmm.

Do you have a different room you can set your rig up in, temporarily, to just test your mains. and see how they perform for you in a normal room? (At least it sounds like you have them in your basement right now, so if you have concrete floor, exposed studs or joists... or just a large open space... (can't really tell if its acoustics or not.)

Regardless, these other cats have pretty much covered it all.

 

[PENG]

This seems like the fifth time in just the last two months I've seen this basic question posed by people with B&Ws. Hmmmm.

I think there are at least two reasons for that..

1) After spending $2K on those speakers, it is easier for people to think that the 24-30 lbs 7-9 channel AVRs are to blame especially after they quickly learnt later via hearsay, about the impedance dips of most B&W tower speakers.

2) Some of their owners sit 10-12 ft, listen to spl >80 dB would naturally find themselves having to crank the volume right up to around the 0/80 (relative/absolute scale) mark, and may therefore think that they are starving those speakers a little.

The fact is, as we all should know, the AVR-X4500/SR7013 can deal with 200W rms or 400 W peaks at 0.1% THD, driving a 4 ohm load as confirmed by various bench tests, or at least 150 W rms, 300 W peaks when the impedance dip to about 3 ohms.

While adding a 200W/300W, 8/4 ohm power amp may gain them 3 dB of headroom, unless the users actually turn the volume up 3 dB more, the unused juice will just be sitting there with no audible effects in theory.

That being said, as ADTG suggested, they should place one 120 mm, or two 80 mm fans on top instead of relying on the build in fans that I suspect has their temperature set point set so high that they won't do anything for longevity, but for protection within the 3 year warranty period.

 

[snakeeyes]

I think there are at least two reasons for that..

1) After spending $2K on those speakers, it is easier for people to think that the 24-30 lbs 7-9 channel AVRs are to blame especially after they quickly learnt later via hearsay, about the impedance dips of most B&W tower speakers.

2) Some of their owners sit 10-12 ft, listen to spl >80 dB would naturally find themselves having to crank the volume right up to around the 0/80 (relative/absolute scale) mark, and may therefore think that they are starving those speakers a little.

The fact is, as we all should know, the AVR-X4500/SR7013 can deal with 200W rms or 400 W peaks at 0.1% THD, driving a 4 ohm load as confirmed by various bench tests, or at least 150 W rms, 300 W peaks when the impedance dip to about 3 ohms.

While adding a 200W/300W, 8/4 ohm power amp may gain them 3 dB of headroom, unless the users actually turn the volume up 3 dB more, the unused juice will just be sitting there with no audible effects in theory.

That being said, as ADTG suggested, they should place one 120 mm, or two 80 mm fans on top instead of relying on the build in fans that I suspect has their temperature set point set so high that they won't do anything for longevity, but for protection within the 3 year warranty period.

The Denons and Marantz run hot. Dual fans are necessary to draw out the hot air.

I think if you power all the channels with an external amp, there is a setting that uses less power maybe that might reduce some of the heat. Not entirely sure though since I read that and don’t have firsthand experience with those brands.

 

[ryanosaur]

@PENG
Agreed. After buying my receiver in the Plug'n'Play mentality... I took great care in learning about the basics of amps, subs, and the interactions between the various components in our systems. Fortunately, I chose a good AVR. And even though I spent a great deal of time researching speakers... that was actually the easy part. And auditioning them was FUN!
Moreover, I enjoy sharing and helping people, as was done with me... by yourself, as well as our other friends above... and more still. Always: my gratitude!!!

 

[ryanosaur]

The Denons and Marantz run hot. Dual fans are necessary to draw out the hot air.

I think if you power all the channels with an external amp, there is a setting that uses less power maybe that might reduce some of the heat. Not entirely sure though since I read that and don’t have firsthand experience with those brands.

Mine still gets hot.
AC Infinity all the way; T series. Don't need it for my amps, just my AVR. Vented to suit your situation. Rear, Top, or Front (if you have to put it in a cabinet). Looks clean and easy to control.