Need a 5 channel amp.

[PENG]

Yeah, I see lots of dynamic power ratings for 2 ohms and even 1 ohm (especially for pro amps). It is the FTC RMS watts rating at 2 ohms that astounded me (but it is not so astounding now that PENG pointed out the fallacy of it)!

Also, as I mentioned before, there don't seem to be any particular standard that manufacturers follow, when specifying power consumption. Denon used to provide the A (amperage, e.g. 8.1 A for the 4308, that is 972 VA) and switched to Watts in recent years. Still, no one would provide the conditions for the specified Watts, A, or VA in any details, or no details at all. At least Anthem provide the idling, typical, high/or maximum, not too useful in terms of using the info to project the transformer size (VA),but a lot better than nothing.

I just took a photo of my Bryston plate at the back and it shows 2100 VA and below are the figures from the manual. Quite different! And, sorry, don't know how to make them smaller.

 

[Pablo2k]

Theta Dreadnaught III 5 channel amp?


Hey guys I'm back.
It seems right now that my subs are overpowering my speakers.
Even thou I have the subs set to about 20-25%, the MC126 (80x6) cant keep up.
I also dial down the MX135 sub output all the way and it still a little too much.
That's what makes me think I need a better 5 channel amp.
I've been reading about the:
Theta Dreadnaught III 5 channel amp.
THD of 1%?? when everyone else claims 0.05% or better?
Dreadnaught III has XLR, fully balance and 250 x 5 monoblocks.
But its hard to find a lot of info on them, like reliability?
Thanks again!
Ps, by getting this amp, I can sell my MC126 and get some money back.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Theta Dreadnaught III 5 channel amp?

I’m sure you realize that ATI owns Theta and other brands and make amps for other companies.

So the beautiful Theta Digital amp would be an excellent amp as well.

 

[Pablo2k]

I’m sure you realize that ATI owns Theta and other brands and make amps for other companies.

So the beautiful Theta Digital amp would be an excellent amp as well.

Yes, ATI purchased Theta in 2007?
ATI also makes Monolith 5x which has XLR and I'm tempted to buy.
I just saw this Dreadnaught for sale and I got intrigued.
Maybe my low end speakers do not require this kind of amp (B&W 683)
Maybe I won't be able to tell the difference between the Theta and Monolith since I don't have a dedicated HT room.
But I figured Id ask.

 

[PENG]

Theta Dreadnaught III 5 channel amp?
I've been reading about the:
Theta Dreadnaught III 5 channel amp.
THD of 1%?? when everyone else claims 0.05% or better?
Dreadnaught III has XLR, fully balance and 250 x 5 monoblocks.
But its hard to find a lot of info on them, like reliability?
Thanks again!
Ps, by getting this amp, I can sell my MC126 and get some money back.

The first step should be to figure out your power requirements. Please use the calculator linked below to determine what you need.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

That calculator is based on speaker sensitivity of 8 ohms at 1W and your B&W specs are based on 2.83V and have impedance dips below 4 ohms. To allow for that, when you enter the information, for speaker sensitivity, subtract 3 dB (not exact, but will be on the conservative side) from the specs. That means for the 683, enter 83, and for the HTM61, inter 84.

If you prefer, simply provide your approx room dimensions (LXWXH) and sitting distance to the front speakers and I do the calculations. Again, it will help if you tell us the loudest spl (sound pressure level) you typically listen to. 85 dB is typically the average level you get in a movie cinema and you know how loud that is.

Lastly, what's the model number of your supercube subwoofers?

 

[Pablo2k]

The first step should be to figure out your power requirements. Please use the calculator linked below to determine what you need.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

That calculator is based on speaker sensitivity of 8 ohms at 1W and your B&W specs are based on 2.83V and have impedance dips below 4 ohms. To allow for that, when you enter the information, for speaker sensitivity, subtract 3 dB (not exact, but will be on the conservative side) from the specs. That means for the 683, enter 83, and for the HTM61, inter 84.

If you prefer, simply provide your approx room dimensions (LXWXH) and sitting distance to the front speakers and I do the calculations. Again, it will help if you tell us the loudest spl (sound pressure level) you typically listen to. 85 dB is typically the average level you get in a movie cinema and you know how loud that is.

Lastly, what's the model number of your supercube subwoofers?

Thank you for the reply.

I actually got a great deal on a new center channel, I always hated my HTM61.
I know my center doesn't match my fronts but here it goes.
683 fronts, HTM3S center, 683 rears.
Subwoofers are Definitive Technology "Supercube Reference" and they are located next to each front.
Room: 24 x 14' x 7' (7.3m x 4.2m x 2.1m)
For movies I sit at about 22', for music which is only 20% of the time I seat at about half the distance.

Thank you!

 

[PENG]

Thank you for the reply.

I actually got a great deal on a new center channel, I always hated my HTM61.
I know my center doesn't match my fronts but here it goes.
683 fronts, HTM3S center, 683 rears.
Subwoofers are Definitive Technology "Supercube Reference" and they are located next to each front.
Room: 24 x 14' x 7' (7.3m x 4.2m x 2.1m)
For movies I sit at about 22', for music which is only 20% of the time I seat at about half the distance.

Thank you!

The HTM3S is the good news as it has much better sensitivity.

For music, to hit reference level (most people find that way too loud), you would need a 4 ohm capable 200-300 WPC power amp. For movies, you will need the Mc1 kW monoblocks, but then they may fry your speakers if you try listening to reference level.

Something like the Monolith 5X should be able to get you 75-80 dB average when watching movies from 22 ft. Keep in mind that 200 W 8 ohm is already the upper limit of the recommended 25-200 W amplifier power for the 683. Those speakers are not designed to produce 85 dB average 105 dB peak at a distance of 22 ft, period..

 

[Pablo2k]

It looks like that Monolith is the way to go...
I'm guessing because its new, it has 5 year warranty, and half the price...
Emotiva vs Monoprice? lol I wont go there... that's another bag of headaches...
Ps, I know this is stupid, but I hate the way the Monolith looks...

 

[PENG]

It looks like that Monolith is the way to go...
I'm guessing because its new, it has 5 year warranty, and half the price...
Emotiva vs Monoprice? lol I wont go there... that's another bag of headaches...
Ps, I know this is stupid, but I hate the way the Monolith looks...

Do you like the Emo look better?

Or the Outlaw 7700, for $2499

 

[ruffman]

i went with 5 outlaw 2200 monos (less than $1600 which includes the shipping) and the marantz 7704 and couldn't be happier.

 

[M Code]

Also, as I mentioned before, there don't seem to be any particular standard that manufacturers follow, when specifying power consumption. Denon used to provide the A (amperage, e.g. 8.1 A for the 4308, that is 972 VA) and switched to Watts in recent years. Still, no one would provide the conditions for the specified Watts, A, or VA in any details, or no details at all. At least Anthem provide the idling, typical, high/or maximum, not too useful in terms of using the info to project the transformer size (VA),but a lot better than nothing.

I just took a photo of my Bryston plate at the back and it shows 2100 VA and below are the figures from the manual. Quite different! And, sorry, don't know how to make them smaller.

View attachment 25951
View attachment 25952

There are multiple variables when discussing rear panel markings for maximum power consumption of an audio amplifier. These include:

• Type of amplifier application, consumer or industrial/commercial
• Input AC Power Voltage, 120V, 240V or 120-240V
• Geographic areas for product sales, as local Safety Agency Certifications by region will vary
• Primary line fuse rating, for example if the line fuse is 10 Amps into 120V then max spec would be 1200W
• Power consumption specification, based upon manufacturer's rated power output into lowest impedance

Just my $0.02...

 

[Pablo2k]

Do you like the Emo look better?

Or the Outlaw 7700, for $2499

If it was for looks only:
1 Emotiva
2 Monolith
3 Outlaw

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but the ADCOM GFA-5705 200x5 amp is another option.

The Adcom regional manager told me that "Adcom is a sister company of ATI".

I bet the street price for the Adcom is a lot less than the Outlaw 200x7 amp or close to five of the Outlaw 2200 or Monoprice 200x7, but the Monoprice 200x5 is cheaper.

Of course, the Adcom looks a lot better than any Emotiva, Outlaw, or Monoprice.

 

[PENG]

If it was for looks only:
1 Emotiva
2 Monolith
3 Outlaw

May as well go by the look. They are all going to sound transparent to humans, except those with golden ears.

 

[ryanosaur]

Little late to the party, but this is almost the conversation I need to have. I will be buying my first ever Amp, and im in the ~1600 or less range for 5 channels. @PENG, you've helped me out before, too... I'm comfortable with the list of Emoxpa5/Monolith5/Outlaw2200x5...
I guess I'm more concerned with how much circuit I need for any of these Amps. (For example, will 5 monoblocks need more current than either the XPA or Monolith?)

If my rudimentary understanding is correct, each 600w max consumption (Outlaw m2200) is equal to 5a, meaning potentially 25a max requiring a 40a breaker because 30a breaker is within the trigger parameter of 80% load. (And that would be a 120 line... if 240, a 20a breaker.)
Please, do I have that correct?
What about the other 2? If I'm reading correctly:
Emo screen shot of rear panel says 20a, but am not finding anything else in their manual that expresses power consumption. They do say 120/240 is OK and auto detected.
Monolith looks like it has a built-in 15a breaker, and AC power plug references 1800w (15a?) 120v only.

Other things in room: my Marantz SR6012 (680w power consumption / (5.7a?), 120v only)
2 x-13 subs (1000w amp, 120v only) (How much juice will these guys use? )
A TV, PS4, Blu-Ray, iMac and various other computer gadgets including router modem printer HDs)

And please, if my basic electrical knowledge is wrong... feel free to point and laugh like Nelson.

Thanks for your help guys!!!

 

[PENG]

Little late to the party, but this is almost the conversation I need to have. I will be buying my first ever Amp, and im in the ~1600 or less range for 5 channels. @PENG, you've helped me out before, too... I'm comfortable with the list of Emoxpa5/Monolith5/Outlaw2200x5...
I guess I'm more concerned with how much circuit I need for any of these Amps. (For example, will 5 monoblocks need more current than either the XPA or Monolith?)

If my rudimentary understanding is correct, each 600w max consumption (Outlaw m2200) is equal to 5a, meaning potentially 25a max requiring a 40a breaker because 30a breaker is within the trigger parameter of 80% load. (And that would be a 120 line... if 240, a 20a breaker.)
Please, do I have that correct?
What about the other 2? If I'm reading correctly:
Emo screen shot of rear panel says 20a, but am not finding anything else in their manual that expresses power consumption. They do say 120/240 is OK and auto detected.
Monolith looks like it has a built-in 15a breaker, and AC power plug references 1800w (15a?) 120v only.

Other things in room: my Marantz SR6012 (680w power consumption / (5.7a?), 120v only)
2 x-13 subs (1000w amp, 120v only) (How much juice will these guys use? )
A TV, PS4, Blu-Ray, iMac and various other computer gadgets including router modem printer HDs)

And please, if my basic electrical knowledge is wrong... feel free to point and laugh like Nelson.

Thanks for your help guys!!!

Below are a few quick points that may help you help yourself, as you seem quick willing and ready to tackle it yourself.

- You can only use the specified power consumption figure as reference, to compare the potential current draw, or power output between models of the same line by the same manufacturers, e.g. Denon to Denon to Marantz, Yamaha to Yamaha, but not Denon to Yamaha or Onkyo.

- If you do try and use power consumption to do calculate current, do not based on Watts/Voltage, but multiply it by at least 1.25, that is 1.25 X Power consumption in watts/Voltage. You can skip the multiplication factor if the consumption is given in VA (volt-amp). That is because the power factor (cosine of the phase angle between the voltage and current phasors) for class AB amps typically should be between 0.7 to 0.85 (my guessimate only).

- A 15 A circuit breaker will not trip immediately at 15 A or even 20A, there will be time delays and you need a time/current characteristic curve to figure it out. Suffice to say, for normal music and movie contents, if the amp is fused at 15 A, it should never trip your circuit breaker. Fuses have time delay too, and you if you have the fuse specs, and model number you may be able to download the curve online.

- The Monolith 5X200 watts supposedly has 2 transformers, 1230 and 1025 VA respectively. If true, regardless of the specs (that says 15 A circuit is fine), I would use a 20 A circuit, but someone on another thread told me he thought Monolith made a mistake/typo, that they actually are 1025 and 800 VA. That would make a lot more sense..

- If a reputable manufacturer tells you a 15 A circuit is good, then it should be good, especially those with a UL/CSA kind of labels at the back, but for any 5X200 W class AB amp, a 20 A circuit wouldn't hurt, though not necessary, especially for those Monolith amps that have a lot of storage capacitance. Again, music and move contents are not continuous, so superior "continuous" rating is not as important as excellent short duration momentary/peak rating, unless your favorite contents are of highly compressed nature and you listen to such at high spl.

In my opinion, of the 3 choices, the only one you may want to use a 20 A circuit or 2 separate 15 A circuits is the M2200 X5. You probably can get away with one 15 A circuit too, as I am quite sure they also have the "soft start" feature so you shouldn't need to worry about nuisance tripping. You can call their customer support if you want to be 100% sure. I understand there is a volume discount, but to me, you don't need external amps for the surround channels.

For 7.1.4 and on a relatively low budget, imo the best combination for you is a MCA 325 plus a MM8003. I have the MCA 20, and that's why I needed the M2200 after my GFA555 disappeared.

 

[2channel lover]

I'm not qualified from an electrical knowledge standpoint to answer that, but my brother in law is a licensed electrician and he's seen my setup.

Realizing the loft was going to be my HT space during construction I ran a 20 amp home run and a 15a homerun for the space, and he says I could run it all on the 20A, but overkill in this case is not bad....I've got 3 2200s, a 5 ch Emo, and a 8 spkr zone Emo amp, Pre/pro, source on the 20a...the subs and TV, room lights, outlets are on the 15a.

 

[ryanosaur]

I understand there is a volume discount, but to me, you don't need external amps for the surround channels.

Hi. Thank you. A lot for me to chew on. This I agree with... one of my goals is 5.1 audio. I’m going to be using BMRs for front three the first five months... then the Phil-3s should arrive. So I figure for a negligible few extra ducats, I’d keep all 5 amped equally, and let my Marantz handle the rears and Atmos. Seemed like the best division of labor for the speakers I’m gonna be using: 6ohm, 85 and 86 dB sensitivity all around and overhead.
Will definitely have some extra questions about some of the other electrical stuff. Want to take a moment and see if I can learn it before asking to have my hand held.
Thanks Peng!

 

[snakeeyes]

Hi. Thank you. A lot for me to chew on. This I agree with... one of my goals is 5.1 audio. I’m going to be using BMRs for front three the first five months... then the Phil-3s should arrive. So I figure for a negligible few extra ducats, I’d keep all 5 amped equally, and let my Marantz handle the rears and Atmos. Seemed like the best division of labor for the speakers I’m gonna be using: 6ohm, 85 and 86 dB sensitivity all around and overhead.
Will definitely have some extra questions about some of the other electrical stuff. Want to take a moment and see if I can learn it before asking to have my hand held.
Thanks Peng!

BMRs for side and back surround? The mini Phil could do that. I remember you have a huge room though.

 

[ryanosaur]

BMRs for side and back surround? The mini Phil could do that. I remember you have a huge room though.

The WAF changed from a go on the big room. So it’s my smaller “office” at about 2000’3.
For the first 5-6 mos... I’m using BMRs up front, Sealed Mini Phil on the sides and old style AAs as rears. The center BMR will stay, but everything else is going to move around back a channel when the 3’s arrive. And I’ll get one more pair of AAs to round out .4 Atmos.
Since all agree that the front three speakers should be voice- and even amp- matched, I figured I’d do what I can to keep that going for 5.1 audio application.
Might be overkill, but I’m much heavier into music listening than I am HT. Just like the two x13s are potentially overkill. But organ and percussion will kill on this rig.
And as I explore more HT by getting into Atmos, I’ll get to experience the whole of it.
Take the Phil 3s out of the equation, and the basic rig I’m buying is probably the best value hi-fi starter set I could put together.
The amp is the last part of the puzzle.