Bought a SC-LX901 on impulse, now I'm doing research. Accesories4Less told me...

[AustinOski]

First time caller here with overly long post...

Was at BB to get a new Harmony remote, saw an open box Pioneer SC-LX901 for $1299 and thought what the heck...Not normal for me. I research stuff. Now I'm getting wrapped around the axel.

I have a serviceable Yamaha Aventage RX-A1000, but want to move to 4k, etc. Have Martin Logan ESL's up front (and center), HSU sub and in-cieling surround (cheap, hidden compromise). But, I'm not claiming to be a big audiophile.

Wanting to replace my Epson projector with 4k and that's really driving the purchase. Got it home, listened a bit, didn't blow me away and thought I'd look around a bit. Going to go do some listening...Before I get the question, one quick antedate some might find interesting.

Was thinking of getting the Integra DRX-7.1 for HDBaseT ease of running 4k/HDR compatible cable, asked chat on A4Less about extended warranty. Guy said keep the Pioneer and that the Integra or Yamaha RX-A3080 would be downgrade. I said, well, Integra is probably similar, has newer DAC, etc. He fairly forcefully told me to keep the Pioneer (I didn't buy from them) and not to buy something else from them. He was very set on his opinion.

But based on specs/facts I can find and people's opinions here and elsewhere, it's to that clear-cut to me. Why is the guy so set on the Pioneer being so much better? Is there something I'm missing or does he just love Pioneer (and maybe the 901 in particular)?

I know the real answer is I need to go compare brands, listen (they have ESL's at my local BB and can test NAD and others where I bought the ESLs), etc.

But, had to ask the forum...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

A4Less... said keep the Pioneer and that the Integra or Yamaha RX-A3080 would be downgrade.

I would be thinking, "This guy doesn't know what he's talking about".

The Pioneer is 140W x 2Ch into 8 ohm.

The Yamaha is 150W x 2Ch into 8 ohm, 410W x 2Ch into 2 ohm Dynamic Power.

Yamaha is probably #1 in reliability.

It just depends on what features you use, how many channels you need, and what you are accustomed to.

In general, I would stick with Yamaha, Sony, Marantz/Denon.

 

[AustinOski]

@AudioRG - I was thinking same. Pioneer/Onkyo/Integra have had known issues (though many are fine). Is the Pioneer and Integra that different? Not if you look at the remote, app and back panel. They are all almost identical. They weigh almost the same. Power is the same, etc. I'm thinking the 7.1 is a sibling to the 801 (2 fewer channels than the 901). And, researching the DAC's a bit, the Integra has a newer and higher-end DAC than the 901 (not saying it sounds better, but on sheer- spec, it's a plus for the Integra).

My Aventage has had zero problems. Full transparency, that was another open box impulse buy! 1/2 off retail when they were out just a few months.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

@AudioRG - I was thinking same. Pioneer/Onkyo/Integra have had known issues (though many are fine). Is the Pioneer and Integra that different? Not if you look at the remote, app and back panel. They are all almost identical. They weigh almost the same. Power is the same, etc. I'm thinking the 7.1 is a sibling to the 801 (2 fewer channels than the 901). And, researching the DAC's a bit, the Integra has a newer and higher-end DAC than the 901 (not saying it sounds better, but on sheer- spec, it's a plus for the Integra).

My Aventage has had zero problems. Full transparency, that was another open box impulse buy! 1/2 off retail when they were out just a few months.

Pioneer and Onkyo/Integra were owned by the same company the last time I checked.

You could probably find another open-box Aventage AVR somewhere for 1/2 off.

 

[BMXTRIX]

HDBT is a 10.2Gb/s format so it can't carry 18Gb/s HDMI 2.0 signals across it. So, there's a cost that I wouldn't spend extra money on if my goal was to move to full 4K in a setup.

In my experience, Integra has been so-so on their engineering. Pioneer has been better, but Yamaha and Denon have been towards the front. Denon tends to have the best amps from what I have heard and gleaned from others over the years, but IMO, they have gotten a bit worse over the years. So, very similar to Yamaha. But, it's as much my experience and opinion over anything else. I don't think any brands are particularly bad, but I do tend to lean towards Denon and Yamaha as my recommendation and choice for purchasing.

 

[AustinOski]

Pioneer and Onkyo/Integra were owned by the same company the last time I checked.

You could probably find another open-box Aventage AVR somewhere for 1/2 off.

Yeah, price of all three open box or refurb + warranty within a couple hundred $$. Not sig diff for this purchase.

 

[lovinthehd]

Mark Sabbrese, owner of A4L, has commented strongly in favor of the Pioneer avrs in a FB group I participate in, particularly the amp section IIRC. He's had very good experience with them apparently. Just an opinion, everyone's got one Then again I'd pick an avr based on needs/dsp/features wanted, the major brands are more similar than different IMO.

 

[AustinOski]

Mark Sabbrese, owner of A4L, has commented strongly in favor of the Pioneer avrs in a FB group I participate in, particularly the amp section IIRC. He's had very good experience with them apparently. Just an opinion, everyone's got one Then again I'd pick an avr based on needs/dsp/features wanted, the major brands are more similar than different IMO.

Oddly, the rep I chatted with had the same first name. Though he may not need the $$$, I do applaud him for giving his opinion though it would lose a potential sale.

At this level of mainstream AVRs, they should all have all I need. Interface, sound sig, reliability are biggest keys. See how I did that? Answered my own question!

1/2 the value of a forum getting the therapy (talking about it), though facts help...

Thanks,

jk

 

[lovinthehd]

Oddly, the rep I chatted with had the same first name. Though he may not need the $$$, I do applaud him for giving his opinion though it would lose a potential sale.

At this level of mainstream AVRs, they should all have all I need. Interface, sound sig, reliability are biggest keys. See how I did that? Answered my own question!

1/2 the value of a forum getting the therapy (talking about it), though facts help...

Thanks,

jk

Don't know what you mean by sound sig, perhaps their dsp? Reliability these days can be a question mark, tho. Nature of the beast.

 

[AustinOski]

Don't know what you mean by sound sig, perhaps their dsp? Reliability these days can be a question mark, tho. Nature of the beast.

Sound sig - Doesn't each brand have it's own sound signature? Yamaha, Marantz, Pioneer?

Now that I type that, I'd be interested to hear Pioneer/Onkyo/Integra next to each other...Same stuff?

 

[Verdinut]

That sound signature bullshit was started by audiophile gear manufacturers or reviewers in audiophool magazines and we have to answer people who are novices in high fidelity matters about that kind of silliness, as has been happening over the years with interconnects and speaker cables.

 

[lovinthehd]

Sound sig - Doesn't each brand have it's own sound signature? Yamaha, Marantz, Pioneer?

Now that I type that, I'd be interested to hear Pioneer/Onkyo/Integra next to each other...Same stuff?

Not particularly except in the dsp....most are quite similar in pure direct mode (altho I rarely use such)....currently I have two Denons, an Onkyo and a Sony and tossed a Pioneer that crapped out a couple years ago. I had no issues interchanging them in various setups as needed, biggest differences are the dsp IMO. Then again, would it be a sound signature with a particular set of speakers or just in general? Pioneer was swallowed up in the Onkyo/Integra fold not too long ago....

 

[everettT]

I've owned and currently own Pioneer Elite and have never had any complaints. Also owned Yamaha and currently have a Denon as well. The 901 seems to be just fine.

 

[Verdinut]

Sound sig - Doesn't each brand have it's own sound signature? Yamaha, Marantz, Pioneer?

Now that I type that, I'd be interested to hear Pioneer/Onkyo/Integra next to each other...Same stuff?

If an electronic audio device has its own sound signature, it's dubious that it can reproduce and transmit with transparency the signal of the audio source fed to it. Good audio equipment has to be neutral and should reproduce with as flat as possible response through full audio spectrum the musical signal. That whole signature bullshit was started by audiophile equipment manufacturers or some reviewer from an audiophool magazine.

 

[AustinOski]

If an electronic audio device has its own sound signature, it's dubious that it can reproduce and transmit with transparency the signal of the audio source fed to it. Good audio equipment has to be neutral and should reproduce with as flat as possible response through full audio spectrum the musical signal. That whole signature bullshit was started by audiophile equipment manufacturers or some reviewer from an audiophool magazine.

Ideally they should be neutral and faithfully reproduce the music, but they all don’t. Otherwise all receivers would sound the same, right?

Perhaps sound signature is the wrong term. People say one brand tends to be warm, another bright, another flat. That is what I was alluding to and that may likely be wrong.

However, if I use 3 different receivers with the same set of speakers playing the same music from the same source it will likely sound different - won’t it? Maybe not as much as interchanging speakers, but a bit I’d think.

Technology is put together by humans. These people designing receivers are putting together receivers from components designed. And manufactured by others. They then use technical means of measuring the results and I’m sure they play around with different combinations. Though they measure, they surely also listen. Wouldn’t it be likely that the same team of 10 people that put together a Pioneer SC-LX701, 801 and 901 have the same biases as a group, but different than their counterparts at Yamaha? They are humans...

Or, maybe they just get the best stuff they can afford based on what the marketing department says can sell each unit for (at at a pre-prescribed profit)? That’s how it works in many industries. The combos of parts end up sounding different and they determine that’s the best they can do given budgets and supplier relationships.

Undoubtedly, they don’t have the same leeway as the guys at the smaller, boutique shops. Correct?

 

[Verdinut]

Ideally they should be neutral and faithfully reproduce the music, but they all don’t. Otherwise all receivers would sound the same, right?

Perhaps sound signature is the wrong term. People say one brand tends to be warm, another bright, another flat. That is what I was alluding to and that may likely be wrong.

However, if I use 3 different receivers with the same set of speakers playing the same music from the same source it will likely sound different - won’t it? Maybe not as much as interchanging speakers, but a bit I’d think.

Technology is put together by humans. These people designing receivers are putting together receivers from components designed. And manufactured by others. They then use technical means of measuring the results and I’m sure they play around with different combinations. Though they measure, they surely also listen. Wouldn’t it be likely that the same team of 10 people that put together a Pioneer SC-LX701, 801 and 901 have the same biases as a group, but different than their counterparts at Yamaha? They are humans...

Or, maybe they just get the best stuff they can afford based on what the marketing department says can sell each unit for (at at a pre-prescribed profit)? That’s how it works in many industries. The combos of parts end up sounding different and they determine that’s the best they can do given budgets and supplier relationships.

Undoubtedly, they don’t have the same leeway as the guys at the smaller, boutique shops. Correct?

No, they shouldn't sound different if they are driven within their designed limits. They sound different because they are not compared under ideal conditions:
1. Used with the same speakers and provided neither is mismatched to the speakers which are used in the testing
2. With the volume level (SPL level) set at the exact spot for each amplifier (acoustically or electronically measured with a good instrument)
3. Test is done with a double blind setting to prevent any bias

Electronic specifications can vary a bit but the human ear is not as precise as testing equipment.

 

[AustinOski]

1. Used with the same speakers and provided neither is mismatched to the speakers which are used in the testing

By mismatched do you mean wrong impedance settings (I know they are mostly auto now), underpowered or something like that?

I understand what you’re saying, but the fact is most of us never listen in ideal conditions when purchasing or at home, right?

In any case, I’ll try it. I’ll go to BB (not ideal, I know), stand in front of the Martin Logans they have there in the same spot and have them switch between 3 receivers of different brands of approximately the same power and level (e.g., price, features, etc.), using the same source and see how they sound. Of course, they’ll need to set them all the same, right. Neutral EQ/Flat, Pure Direct mode on or off, etc. I’m guessing that’s the hard part. Lots of different default settings between brands and other settings that color the sound in some way.

 

[AustinOski]

One more newbie question, then. All these “professional” reviews by all these reviewers, listening to different receivers in the same room using the same equipment and music. They talk about the different qualities, this one had better highs, this one brought out deeper lows. All BS.

I know I can try the same wine in the same glass on two different days and it tastes different. Some may tell you it’s the moon phase, ocean tides or something else - but mostly it’s likely mood, health, pollen in the air, ambient temperature, smells in room or whatever other variables. Environmental and human variables.

 

[Verdinut]

By mismatched do you mean wrong impedance settings (I know they are mostly auto now), underpowered or something like that?

I understand what you’re saying, but the fact is most of us never listen in ideal conditions when purchasing or at home, right?

In any case, I’ll try it. I’ll go to BB (not ideal, I know), stand in front of the Martin Logans they have there in the same spot and have them switch between 3 receivers of different brands of approximately the same power and level (e.g., price, features, etc.), using the same source and see how they sound. Of course, they’ll need to set them all the same, right. Neutral EQ/Flat, Pure Direct mode on or off, etc. I’m guessing that’s the hard part. Lots of different default settings between brands and other settings that color the sound in some way.

A mismatch between an amplifier and a loudspeaker is not necessarily related to impedance setting. First of all, with a solid state amplifier, no impedance setting should be required as opposed to tube amplifiers. If an AV receiver manufacturer recommends to use the 4 ohm impedance switch position for a 4 ohm speaker, we here at Audioholics, suggest that the switch should be set at 8 ohms. This topic was discussed in a thread.

It's more complex than that. As an example, a loudspeaker can have a high capacitance that will destabilize the amplifier connected to it. An amplifier could have a high output resistance and it would not be able to properly damp a woofer or subwoofer's motion. A speaker could have an impedance which will go down below 3 ohms and many amplifiers are not designed to handle such a load because their power supply is insufficient.

In my previous post, I explained how a double blind test should be done. If it's not done as indicated, the test is invalid. It's about impossible to have such test done in a store. Some salesmen have in the past manipulated the settings etc.