Curious about power amp + surround sound processor vs avreceiver.

[M Code]

I'm not convinced that the 975 is really being replaced by the 976. They are different beasts, and I think the demand for a simple, inexpensive 5 channel Pre-pro is not a fad that will pass too quickly among those who want separates!
The 975/5000 combo was being sold for $800 during their Black Friday sale (which lasted for over a week) and now they are back at the regular price (separately $550 for 975 and $650 for 5000 or $1000 for combo) - not the way a closeout item is normally treated!

But maybe @Matthew J Poes has some idea (or can find out) how long Outlaw anticipates keeping the 975 in circulation.

Sourcing an updated surround processor with the latest audio & video protocols and HDMI/HDCP is a very significant challenge for Outlaw.... The respective development costs for hardware & software plus tooling amortization costs are very, very high... Well into 7 figures...
And without a big $ up-front investment supported by a sizable sales quantity commitment, the OE/ODM CE development teams will not commit their resources.... There are only a select # of CE development teams that have the supporting engineering experience & required resources.....
Major brands like a Denon/Marantz or Onkyo/Pioneer or Yamaha have the significant purchase quantities for both AVR and controller/processor products able to afford this.. Or else the only other path is to source a high end product through a design house as done by ATI, DataSat...

Just my $0.02...

 

[lovinthehd]

Interesting about the 975 pre-out levels. The specs indicate 2V (nominal I assume) and max 2.7V. What amp are you using, @Irvrobinson ?

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm not convinced that the 975 is really being replaced by the 976. They are different beasts, and I think the demand for a simple, inexpensive 5 channel Pre-pro is not a fad that will pass too quickly among those who want separates!
The 975/5000 combo was being sold for $800 during their Black Friday sale (which lasted for over a week) and now they are back at the regular price (separately $550 for 975 and $650 for 5000 or $1000 for combo) - not the way a closeout item is normally treated!

But maybe @Matthew J Poes has some idea (or can find out) how long Outlaw anticipates keeping the 975 in circulation.

Could depend how many 975s they had produced/committed to....

 

[TLS Guy]

I use an Outlaw 975 as a pre-pro. While seriously cheap it does have some limitations:

1. No 4K support. Not a problem if 1080 is all you need.
2. The 4 HDMI inputs Mark mentioned. I have a pretty simple system, and I use them all.
3. I've had an issue with sufficient output voltage to drive my ATI AT602 amp. When I was using insensitive JBL monitors it was unacceptable. With the more sensitive Klipsch towers I use now it is acceptable, but no more than that.
4. The volume control is somewhat annoying. If you only use the remote, like I do, it's not an issue.

While the 975 is cheap, I think it is an example of getting what you pay for.

I agree the 975 is not satisfactory as a high end unit. It does not have nearly enough headroom. The 976 delivers 9V at the output before clipping which is much more satisfactory.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Interesting about the 975 pre-out levels. The specs indicate 2V (nominal I assume) and max 2.7V. What amp are you using, @Irvrobinson ?

The ATI AT602, which is out of production. ATI's specifications say it has 28db of gain, which is lower than the more typical 32-34db on RCA inputs these days.

My 975 is a very early one, and it is possible that Outlaw improved the design later on, but I doubt it.

 

[lovinthehd]

The ATI AT602, which is out of production. ATI's specifications say it has 28db of gain, which is lower than the more typical 32-34db on RCA inputs these days.

My 975 is a very early one, and it is possible that Outlaw improved the design later on, but I doubt it.

What's the stated sensitivity for that amp?

 

[Irvrobinson]

What's the stated sensitivity for that amp?

The rated power voltage requirement for this amp is 0.9v into 28K ohms. So either the Outlaw specs are optimistic or the ATI specs are incorrect. Based on my experience testing the AT602 with a Benchmark DAC1-HDR as a pre-amp, the ATI specs are probably accurate.

 

[PENG]

I don't trust Oulaw's sensitivity specs, ymmv.. If you look carefully of their specs, not just one model but other models as well, you may see some inconsistencies yourself.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I don't trust Oulaw's sensitivity specs, ymmv.. If you look carefully of their specs, not just one model but other models as well, you may see some inconsistencies yourself.

I'm not sure I'm following you. On my 975, all of the inputs I use are HDMI, so all of the audio is input in digital format. How does the Outlaw's sensitivity come into play? Or are we talking past one another, and you're discussing the sensitivity specs of Outlaw amplifiers?

 

[PENG]

I'm not sure I'm following you. On my 975, all of the inputs I use are HDMI, so all of the audio is input in digital format. How does the Outlaw's sensitivity come into play? Or are we talking past one another, and you're discussing the sensitivity specs of Outlaw amplifiers?

Yes, I was talking about Outlaw amp input sensitivity and gain specs.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Truth be known, I have repeatedly been tempted to order a pair of Phil3s to replace the Klipsch speakers in our HT system. Unfortunately, the Phil3's 85db sensitivity, being at least 6db worse than that of the Klipsch towers, would likely make me deal with a 975 replacement too, due to the output voltage challenges I've mentioned. The combined total would be at least $5K, perhaps more.

The Emotiva MC-700 looks interesting, but my past experience with Emotiva was not positive. I'm not sure I'd trust Outlaw again, but the 976 could be interesting. All of the other options are about $2K+.

 

[PENG]

3. I've had an issue with sufficient output voltage to drive my ATI AT602 amp. When I was using insensitive JBL monitors it was unacceptable. With the more sensitive Klipsch towers I use now it is acceptable, but no more than that.

The sensitivity/voltage gain specs of some the M2200 amp doesn't make sense to me so I don't think I can trust their preamp output gain spec either.

The fact is, if they are correct about the specified output of 2 V, then assuming the AT602's sensitivity spec of 24 dB is correct, there should be no problem for the AT602 to deliver the rated output of 60/90 W, 8/4 ohms.

With 2 Vrms input to the AT602, the calculated output based on 24 dB voltage gain is about 125 W into 8 ohms, or 250 W into 4 ohms. 1.4 Vrms should be all it takes to drive the AT602 to it's rated output. 2 Vrms will of course provide ample headroom.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I'm not convinced that the 975 is really being replaced by the 976. They are different beasts, and I think the demand for a simple, inexpensive 5 channel Pre-pro is not a fad that will pass too quickly among those who want separates!
The 975/5000 combo was being sold for $800 during their Black Friday sale (which lasted for over a week) and now they are back at the regular price (separately $550 for 975 and $650 for 5000 or $1000 for combo) - not the way a closeout item is normally treated!

But maybe @Matthew J Poes has some idea (or can find out) how long Outlaw anticipates keeping the 975 in circulation.

Till there are no more parts.

The 975 uses some end-of-life parts that likely can't be sourced much longer. I even had to give back the 976 because of parts shortages and it's much newer. I expect both to be replaced at some point in the not too distant future. Peter told me that they often update products simply because the old parts aren't available.

I can ask Peter if there is any official story here. Everything related to future products was shared in confidence so I suspect they won't want to share much about the 975-976 life as it might cause speculation of what's next.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Truth be known, I have repeatedly been tempted to order a pair of Phil3s to replace the Klipsch speakers in our HT system. Unfortunately, the Phil3's 85db sensitivity, being at least 6db worse than that of the Klipsch towers, would likely make me deal with a 975 replacement too, due to the output voltage challenges I've mentioned. The combined total would be at least $5K, perhaps more.

The Emotiva MC-700 looks interesting, but my past experience with Emotiva was not positive. I'm not sure I'd trust Outlaw again, but the 976 could be interesting. All of the other options are about $2K+.

my opinion is that the 976 is another league from the MC-700. Peter likes to point the difference in real estate under the hood. The 976 uses really good parts only found in the best receivers and configured very well. As far as I'm concerned the MC-700 is slightly better than an average receiver in parts.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I agree the 975 is not satisfactory as a high end unit. It does not have nearly enough headroom. The 976 delivers 9V at the output before clipping which is much more satisfactory.

yeah so much so it clipped my sound interface input stage. I had trouble measuring it's EQ functions because of that massive voltage swing. IT'S voltage output are impressive. You have to be careful setting it up because it can clip the input of the amplifier. It can actually damage input capacitor which was a concern when I tested how bad compounding each can get.

 

[Irvrobinson]

yeah so much so it clipped my sound interface input stage. I had trouble measuring it's EQ functions because of that massive voltage swing. IT'S voltage output are impressive. You have to be careful setting it up because it can clip the input of the amplifier. It can actually damage input capacitor which was a concern when I tested how bad compounding each can get.

I wonder if that high output is Outlaw's recoil response to the likely complaining about the low output of the 975. ;-)