Help! I have an a2070 and an opportunity for an SR7012

[luckywales]

Hi there everyone - I hope someone can help. I currently have a Yamaha Aventage a2070 hooked up to my HT. My setup is a Panny plasma running 1080p, which is 41' (in cable length) from my cabinet. My speakers are all Polk, with 75T Monitors in the front. I upgraded last year from an Onkyo 818 and this Yamaha is superior in almost every way, however I will say that the sound is very...in my face...if that makes sense. It's like all the sound from a FLAC, or indeed a movie just hits you rather than subtly filling the room. I'm sure I need to spend a little more time with the YPAO but I wondered if this sounded familiar to others.

I have the opportunity of changing to an almost new Marantz SR7012, and would like to know people's opinions on this change/upgrade/downgrade, but also what I might expect as a difference. In short, I hear that the Yammy runs cooler, and has great DSPs (both true in my limited experience); and the Marantz will sound better for music and has (or maybe because it has) the Audyssey equalizer setup. I'm trying to cut through the simple home theater review rubbish where people say "well it has Audyssey so obviously the 7012 is way better" and get to actual experience or nuanced reasoning.

Any help would be much appreciated with the decision as to whether I should swap out the a2070 for the SR7012 and what I might expect as a result of doing so.

 

[PENG]

I upgraded last year from an Onkyo 818 and this Yamaha is superior in almost every way, however I will say that the sound is very...in my face...if that makes sense. It's like all the sound from a FLAC, or indeed a movie just hits you rather than subtly filling the room. I'm sure I need to spend a little more time with the YPAO but I wondered if this sounded familiar to others.

In my opinion, those kind of subjective impressions are not meaningful. If the units being compared volume matches, with no EQ engaged etc., to make sure we are just comparing the sound quality of the amplifiers, then I am 90% certain (based on objective facts and data) that you won't be able to tell a difference. If EQ is involved, then it is a significant variable that may allow you to tell the difference between the Onkyo, Yamaha and Marantz.

I have the opportunity of changing to an almost new Marantz SR7012, and would like to know people's opinions on this change/upgrade/downgrade, but also what I might expect as a difference.

If you are interested in 7.1.4 Atmos, you can do it with the SR7012, but not the RX-A2070. They also have very different Room EQ system but if you don't use them then it is a moot point. I know Audyssey XT32 Sub EQ HT (Marantz) works very well in smoothing the low frequencies in my rooms where one or more subwoofers has to work well together with my bass capable L,C,R speakers, but I am not sure if Yamaha's YPAO is as good.

In short, I hear that the Yammy runs cooler, and has great DSPs (both true in my limited experience); and the Marantz will sound better for music and has (or maybe because it has) the Audyssey equalizer setup. I'm trying to cut through the simple home theater review rubbish where people say "well it has Audyssey so obviously the 7012 is way better" and get to actual experience or nuanced reasoning.

I don't know about the 2070, but I know Marantz and Denon's mid range models do run quite warm, but it only costs $10 to put a quiet fan on top. It is not really necessary if you have say 6 inches of clearance on top for air to move, but an external fan should help extending life.

The talks about one is better for music are really just talks, or hearsay. In a properly done AB comparison, as I mentioned earlier, I highly doubt you can tell a difference. However, there is no point debating such a topic as it is obviously up to you to choose what to believe.

Any help would be much appreciated with the decision as to whether I should swap out the a2070 for the SR7012 and what I might expect as a result of doing so.

If money is not the issue, it seems to me your only good reason to swap it for the SR7012 would be to do 7.1.4, and/or you prefer Audyssey to YPAO. According to our resident insider @M Code, Yamaha AVRs do have better reliability records.

 

[luckywales]

In my opinion, those kind of subjective impressions are not meaningful. If the units being compared volume matches, with no EQ engaged etc., to make sure we are just comparing the sound quality of the amplifiers, then I am 90% certain (based on objective facts and data) that you won't be able to tell a difference. If EQ is involved, then it is a significant variable that may allow you to tell the difference between the Onkyo, Yamaha and Marantz.



If you are interested in 7.1.4 Atmos, you can do it with the SR7012, but not the RX-A2070. They also have very different Room EQ system but if you don't use them then it is a moot point. I know Audyssey XT32 Sub EQ HT (Marantz) works very well in smoothing the low frequencies in my rooms where one or more subwoofers has to work well together with my bass capable L,C,R speakers, but I am not sure if Yamaha's YPAO is as good.



I don't know about the 2070, but I know Marantz and Denon's mid range models do run quite warm, but it only costs $10 to put a quiet fan on top. It is not really necessary if you have say 6 inches of clearance on top for air to move, but an external fan should help extending life.

The talks about one is better for music are really just talks, or hearsay. In a properly done AB comparison, as I mentioned earlier, I highly doubt you can tell a difference. However, there is no point debating such a topic as it is obviously up to you to choose what to believe.



If money is not the issue, it seems to me your only good reason to swap it for the SR7012 would be to do 7.1.4, and/or you prefer Audyssey to YPAO. According to our resident insider @M Code, Yamaha AVRs do have better reliability records.

That was very detailed - I really appreciate your response that went beyond the normal responses that are provided in AVR reviews where one suspects no actual testing took place. I'm running 7.1.2 Atmos, and a powered zone 2, which the Yamaha appears to handle well except for that aggressive sound handling, possibly from the center speaker. I have no idea whether I prefer YPAO or Audyssey - really looking for others to tell me (with actual experience) which sets up the amp for better sound. Again - thank you for your time in providing a response.

 

[Spdmn256]

If you want to tell us more about the room and the layout (speaker and listening positions, room shape and size) there might be other suggestions people could make to help optimize your current setup. Otherwise upgrading your speakers would likely bring a much greater benefit than changing your AVR.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think if you are "dependent" on room correction EQ, then Audyssey XT32 sounds better.

If you don't really care that much about room EQ (I don't like any room EQ) and you mainly just use Bypass/Through mode, then it doesn't matter.

In Bypass/Through modes, both Yamaha and Marantz/Denon (and others like Sony or Pioneer) will sound equally good (with all things being equal).

So if your system already sounds great, don't change.

If your system doesn't sound good and you can't seem to do anything to improve (like increasing the Subwoofer levels or Center speaker level),then you might try the Marantz. But there is no guarantee that it will sound much better.

 

[kini]

Upgrading the speakers would make much more difference than going to a laterally similar AVR.

 

[luckywales]

I think if you are "dependent" on room correction EQ, then Audyssey XT32 sounds better.

If you don't really care that much about room EQ (I don't like any room EQ) and you mainly just use Bypass/Through mode, then it doesn't matter.

In Bypass/Through modes, both Yamaha and Marantz/Denon (and others like Sony or Pioneer) will sound equally good (with all things being equal).

So if your system already sound great, don't change.

If your system doesn't sound good and you can't seem to do anything to improve (like increasing the Subwoofer levels or Center speaker level), then you might try the Marantz. But there is no guarantee that it will sound much better.

Indeed - based on the first response in this thread, I'm thinking it's absolutely down to the EQ. If they would otherwise sound the same, my current thought is that I'll rerun the Yamaha YPAO EQ, and watch a movie and listen to some SACDs; then set up the Marantz and completely run the EQ from start to finish and do the same. Even if I can't tell a difference, I'll have learned something and then might be able to help out someone on this forum given that I'd have done a true side-by-side comparison.

Thank you.

 

[luckywales]

If you want to tell us more about the room and the layout (speaker and listening positions, room shape and size) there might be other suggestions people could make to help optimize your current setup. Otherwise upgrading your speakers would likely bring a much greater benefit than changing your AVR.

OK good call. My living room is approximately 19 feet by 15 feet, and I have 10 foot ceilings. I have an open space to my right as I sit to watch the television, and windows to my left. I realize that is a non-optimum layout and why I believe the EQ to be so important for my setup, and hence wondered if the Marantz set up would truly be better (after hearing true experience on this forum, and ridding myself of the generic statements that "Audyssey is always better"). All speakers:

FRONT: Polk Audio Monitor Series New Monitor 75T Four-Way Ported Floorstanding Loudspeaker
SUB: Polk Audio PSW Series PSW505 12" Powered Subwoofer Single
CENTER: Polk Audio Monitor 25C Two-way CENTER CHANNEL SPEAKER
SURROUND AND FRONT PRESENCE: Polk Audio RC80i 2-Way In-Ceiling Speakers
I do not have "Surround Back".

Thank you.

 

[snakeeyes]

There are a few differences I know of. (I have a 2060 which is very similar)

2070 is 9ch
7012 is 11ch

2070 you can’t run full range large and use bass management at the same time on the same speakers, like on Marantz

2070 has a center channel lift feature so you can move the center to the middle of the screen by using mains to “lift” or “lower” it. Marantz doesn’t have that feature.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Indeed - based on the first response in this thread, I'm thinking it's absolutely down to the EQ. If they would otherwise sound the same, my current thought is that I'll rerun the Yamaha YPAO EQ, and watch a movie and listen to some SACDs; then set up the Marantz and completely run the EQ from start to finish and do the same. Even if I can't tell a difference, I'll have learned something and then might be able to help out someone on this forum given that I'd have done a true side-by-side comparison.

Thank you.

That would be very helpful.

I have used Audyssey XT and XT32 and YPAO. I thought Audyssey was less "offensive" to me than YPAO. But in all cases, I preferred not using any EQ at all.

But it's easy for everyone to experiment and decide.

 

[PENG]

Indeed - based on the first response in this thread, I'm thinking it's absolutely down to the EQ. If they would otherwise sound the same, my current thought is that I'll rerun the Yamaha YPAO EQ, and watch a movie and listen to some SACDs; then set up the Marantz and completely run the EQ from start to finish and do the same. Even if I can't tell a difference, I'll have learned something and then might be able to help out someone on this forum given that I'd have done a true side-by-side comparison.

Thank you.

When you do re-run YPAO, please read the instructions one more time and then follow it to the letter, same for Audyssey if you end up getting the SR7012. I tend to agree with what others are saying, that your speakers really are the weak link. One advantage the SR7012 has is that you can set the high frequency limit (e.g. 500 Hz) for EQ, if you use the $20 Audyssey Editor App. I don't think you can do that with YPAO, but @AcuDefTechGuy should be able to confirm this.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

When you do re-run YPAO, please read the instructions one more time and then follow it to the letter, same for Audyssey if you end up getting the SR7012. I tend to agree with what others are saying, that your speakers really are the weak link. One advantage the SR7012 has is that you can set the high frequency limit (e.g. 500 Hz) for EQ, if you use the $20 Audyssey Editor App. I don't think you can do that with YPAO, but @AcuDefTechGuy should be able to confirm this.

Gene reviewed his Yamaha CX-A5100. I think he did some kind of manual PEQ via the web interface, but not with an app.

 

[3db]

Gene reviewed his Yamaha CX-A5100. I think he did some kind of manual PEQ via the web interface, but not with an app.

I was gonna say that the OP should be able to do a manual post EQ after running YPAO, one of the nice features of Yamaha.

 

[3db]

Indeed - based on the first response in this thread, I'm thinking it's absolutely down to the EQ. If they would otherwise sound the same, my current thought is that I'll rerun the Yamaha YPAO EQ, and watch a movie and listen to some SACDs; then set up the Marantz and completely run the EQ from start to finish and do the same. Even if I can't tell a difference, I'll have learned something and then might be able to help out someone on this forum given that I'd have done a true side-by-side comparison.

Thank you.

Yamaha allows you to perform a manual post EQ after YPAO has been run to suit your tastes.

 

[luckywales]

Yamaha allows you to perform a manual post EQ after YPAO has been run to suit your tastes.

I did not know that was possible. Having read through these responses (thank you everybody), I will also make sure that this "lift" functionality is switched off - I was literal when I said the sound is "in my face" - I will let you know how the EQ setup goes tonight/tomorrow night. As I say, even if I gain no audio improvements, I will gain some knowledge at least.

 

[luckywales]

When you do re-run YPAO, please read the instructions one more time and then follow it to the letter, same for Audyssey if you end up getting the SR7012. I tend to agree with what others are saying, that your speakers really are the weak link. One advantage the SR7012 has is that you can set the high frequency limit (e.g. 500 Hz) for EQ, if you use the $20 Audyssey Editor App. I don't think you can do that with YPAO, but @AcuDefTechGuy should be able to confirm this.

Thank you for this - I definitely will. When you say the speakers are the weak link, do you mean that's why the sound specifically with the Yamaha (vs. the Onkyo) sounds a bit aggressive? Or do you mean I wouldn't get the best out of the receivers with those 75Ts for stereo music?

 

[PENG]

Thank you for this - I definitely will. When you say the speakers are the weak link, do you mean that's why the sound specifically with the Yamaha (vs. the Onkyo) sounds a bit aggressive? Or do you mean I wouldn't get the best out of the receivers with those 75Ts for stereo music?

I have no idea why the Yamaha would sound "a bit aggressive", or ".....in your face..." really mean, and in any case, it could also be just your (may be partially?) subjective impression, if it does so even you listened in "straight", pure direct" mode. Otherwise, YPAO might have colored the sound in ways that you don't prefer, and in that case, as 3 dB and ADTG both mentioned that you could made some manual adjustments to you liking. Since you already have a very good mid range AVR, if power output it not the issue, then it is likely that the quality of the media sources, the speakers and your room that will affect sound quality most.

The RX-A2070 deserves much better speakers than the 75Ts, that's what I meant. If you prefer the Polk audio brand, try listening to some LSiM speakers, or other products by KEF, Philharmonic Audio, Elac, SVS and others that fit your budget. One place to start is to read some of the reviews right here on Audioholics.com.

https://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews

 

[luckywales]

I have no idea why the Yamaha would sound "a bit aggressive", or ".....in your face..." really mean, and in any case, it could also be just your (may be partially?) subjective impression, if it does so even you listened in "straight", pure direct" mode. Otherwise, YPAO might have colored the sound in ways that you don't prefer, and in that case, as 3 dB and ADTG both mentioned that you could made some manual adjustments to you liking. Since you already have a very good mid range AVR, if power output it not the issue, then it is likely that the quality of the media sources, the speakers and your room that will affect sound quality most.

The RX-A2070 deserves much better speakers than the 75Ts, that's what I meant. If you prefer the Polk audio brand, try listening to some LSiM speakers, or other products by KEF, Philharmonic Audio, Elac, SVS and others that fit your budget. One place to start is to read some of the reviews right here on Audioholics.com.

https://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews

I see thanks for clarifying, and I must say that I'd respectfully disagree. In fact when I replaced my SVS, that's exactly what I did - I went to reviews. I picked the 75Ts on the positive reviews that they received over the equivalently priced KEFs. I wouldn't say it was an instant improvement as I had to mess about with the crossover, and how the receivers "saw" the Monitors, but the eventual improvement was clear with both the Pioneer and Onkyo that I previously owned. If they can sound decent with those, then the a2070 should be able to get the best out of them, too right?

Out of interest, is your opinion based on factual knowledge and experience of the speakers, or a general impression having read through forums? If it's the former, I'd suggest spending more time with the setup - it's definitely worth it. If it's the latter, that's the conjecture I was hoping to avoid with this post - sort of avoiding fake news. I'm requesting expertise with the sound setup, and a experience in relation to these two amps in particular. I do appreciate your expertise on the settings that might improve my listening experience, and I intend to follow through on the manual adjustment suggestions that you (and others) offered. I wanted to do it last night but didn't have time after work. Hopefully tonight or the weekend. I will report back what I find.

 

[PENG]

I see thanks for clarifying, and I must say that I'd respectfully disagree. In fact when I replaced my SVS, that's exactly what I did - I went to reviews. I picked the 75Ts on the positive reviews that they received over the equivalently priced KEFs. I wouldn't say it was an instant improvement as I had to mess about with the crossover, and how the receivers "saw" the Monitors, but the eventual improvement was clear with both the Pioneer and Onkyo that I previously owned. If they can sound decent with those, then the a2070 should be able to get the best out of them, too right?

I don't base much on subjective reviews, if at all, but mostly on specs and measurements. I read subjective reviews, or the subjective part of Audioholics, Stereophile and Soundstage.com reviews for fun only.

Imo, Audioholics.com is a good place to start just to get a short list, but for measurements I do visit the following sites a lot:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/recommended-components-2018-edition-loudspeakers
https://www.soundstage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16

Examples of some useful measurements are:

https://www.soundstage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=793:nrc-measurements-kef-r500&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

https://www.stereophile.com/content/monitor-audio-silver-300-loudspeaker-measurements

https://www.stereophile.com/content/elac-debut-b6-loudspeaker-measurements

Out of interest, is your opinion based on factual knowledge and experience of the speakers, or a general impression having read through forums? If it's the former, I'd suggest spending more time with the setup - it's definitely worth it.

Not the 75T, but I have auditioned a few LSi, RTi A and RTI models that are of higher quality than the 75T. In fact I do still own some Polk audio speakers. Higher price speakers don't always sound good, but given the receiver you have, I would not match it with speakers in the below $2,000 a pair range.

If it's the latter, that's the conjecture I was hoping to avoid with this post - sort of avoiding fake news.

Wow, I only refer to the 75T as weak link relative to your receiver, and thought I made that quite clear and I have no idea that could be considered "fake news". Sorry you felt that way, but then you misunderstood my point. To be clearer, if you had a RX-V485 or V685, then I would not have made the same comments about the 75Ts.

 

[luckywales]

Thank you for being so responsive and detailed. I didn't mean your opinion was fake news - just that I wanted to avoid references ONLY to what other people said since people tend to...say a lot without factual premise. It's just what happens these days. I'm very glad to hear that you auditioned the other Polk speakers and that your opinion was based on that knowledge. I've listened to the RTiAs in my setup and honestly didn't hear any difference with vinyl. I totally agree that it's possible it could sound better, especially for stereo music, with more expensive speakers. I still disagree about the 75Ts since they did sound very good with "lower class" receivers, so I believe that the A2070 should also make them sound at least as good as they previously sounded. I'll be looking through those links you provided as I get time throughout my day - it doesn't hurt to look at spending more money on a fun hobby. Thank you again for your help here.