Denon x6500 vs x4500

[the machine]

Hello all,

I’m looking to get a new avr, currently have an x5200, which does not handle 4K coming from my LG ubk90. So I want to upgrade and somewhat future proof myself, against a new set of speakers.

Current speakers are klipsch reference, see signature for the models. In the future I’d like to go to svs ultra, possibly monitor audio silvers, or kef R series.

I know even the 5200 is overkill for the klipsch power wise, but are the 4500 and 6500 the same internally just with 2 more/less channels? With the 5200, I was unable to upgrade via firmware to something that would allow the 4K to pass through. I want to be sure that whatever I purchase, denon will not charge me to update something if needed.

Thanks for everyone’s input.

 

[PENG]

Hello all,

I’m looking to get a new avr, currently have an x5200, which does not handle 4K coming from my LG ubk90. So I want to upgrade and somewhat future proof myself, against a new set of speakers.

Current speakers are klipsch reference, see signature for the models. In the future I’d like to go to svs ultra, possibly monitor audio silvers, or kef R series.

I know even the 5200 is overkill for the klipsch power wise, but are the 4500 and 6500 the same internally just with 2 more/less channels? With the 5200, I was unable to upgrade via firmware to something that would allow the 4K to pass through. I want to be sure that whatever I purchase, denon will not charge me to update something if needed.

Thanks for everyone’s input.

From what I can see the 6500 has a marginally larger power supply, a few nice features such as the so called monolithic amp design (just a nicer layout), dialog enhancer, and made in Japan. In terms of features, it isn't really more future proof than the 4500 aside from having two more amp channels.

 

[the machine]

I’m not meaning future proof in terms of HDMI 2.1 and such, I mean future proofing myself in terms of upgrading speakers. I like my klipsch, but I also like to tinker and at some point in the near future, will probably upgrade. I just want to make sure anything I purchase will be able to be handled by whichever amp I go with. I do not want to have to add an additional amp after the fact. Not sure if the 4500 is enough to handle any of the speakers I mentioned, or if it would be included in denons premium support range, as my 5200 was not included for free upgrades, but the 7200 was. I want to make sure which ever I choose, I will not be excluded from relevant updates

 

[the machine]

Oh I must add also,

6500 - 1500
6400 - 1400
4500 - 1000

These are my prices

 

[panteragstk]

Oh I must add also,

6500 - 1500
6400 - 1400
4500 - 1000

These are my prices

I'd look at it as the 6x00 series is pretty much paying $400-$500 for an additional 2ch of amplification and a bit more robust PSU. That's pretty much it from what I can see.

I opted for the 4x00 series for that reason.

 

[PENG]

I just want to make sure anything I purchase will be able to be handled by whichever amp I go with. I do not want to have to add an additional amp after the fact. Not sure if the 4500 is enough to handle any of the speakers I mentioned, or if it would be included in denons premium support range, as my 5200 was not included for free upgrades, but the 7200 was. I want to make sure which ever I choose, I will not be excluded from relevant updates

Whether the Denon AVRs can handle the KEF R series speakers or not depends on your room dimensions, seating distance and the sound pressure level you require. You are better off figuring it out yourself using the calculator linked on AH many times.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

KEF typically claim 8 ohm nominal impedance, to be on the conservative side, I would assume 4 ohms, that means whatever the sensitivity X dB 2.83 V@1 meter specs are, subtract 3 dB before entering it into the calculator.

Regardless, the differences in output rating between the 5200, 4500 and 6500 are practically negligible. The KEF R series will need a lot more juice than the Klipsch RF82ii to produce the same spl at your mlp.

 

[lovinthehd]

I’m not meaning future proof in terms of HDMI 2.1 and such, I mean future proofing myself in terms of upgrading speakers. I like my klipsch, but I also like to tinker and at some point in the near future, will probably upgrade. I just want to make sure anything I purchase will be able to be handled by whichever amp I go with. I do not want to have to add an additional amp after the fact. Not sure if the 4500 is enough to handle any of the speakers I mentioned, or if it would be included in denons premium support range, as my 5200 was not included for free upgrades, but the 7200 was. I want to make sure which ever I choose, I will not be excluded from relevant updates

That's a big request of an avr amp in terms of possible speakers. If you drive very low sensitivity or very low impedance speakers, particularly at elevated SPLs, an avr amp isn't always the best choice, but that's why these units have pre-outs to an extent, to give you amp flexibility.

 

[the machine]

Which speakers that I mentioned is a 6500 a big request for, and this isn’t a rhetorical question.

 

[RTG]

I have the Denon 4300 powering a 7.2.2 Klipsch RP setup and I’m very happy. For movies I typically listen between -15db - -7db and the Klipsch don’t break a sweat. Prior to the 4300 I had a Marantz 7009 and felt it lacked oomph even though they had almost identical power.

 

[the machine]

Also, I just bought a pair of svs ultra bookshelves off of eBay about 30 mins ago. Couldn’t pass on the price, so in the future I’ll probably get the towers, bipoles and prime elevation.

 

[lovinthehd]

Which speakers that I mentioned is a 6500 a big request for, and this isn’t a rhetorical question.

There are speakers out there that have the conditions I mentioned, can't list them for you, nor did you specify which ones weren't on your list either so assuming you might find some that met that "future proof" exception

 

[the machine]

Thanks, I bought svs ultra bookshelves this evening so that will be what I go with in the future

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks, I bought svs ultra bookshelves this evening so that will be what I go with in the future

LOL okay, to me that's just "now" rather than the future Have fun, those get good reports!

 

[KEW]

Thanks, I bought svs ultra bookshelves this evening so that will be what I go with in the future

Those are pretty good sounding speakers, I think you will be happy with them.
If you end up having to choose between using $2000 Ultra towers in front vs $1000 better subwoofers with $1000 Ultra bookshelf speakers, go with the better subwoofers. The Ultra bookshelf has solid bass for a normal 80Hz roll-off! But you will find that out soon enough when you hook the SVS up (I assume you'll want to try them out for your mains before buying the towers).
The 4500 or better Denon should generally be fine with SVS Ultras (but use the calculator in case you are far from the speakers or like to really crank it loud).

The one setting to avoid is multi-channel stereo. Two reasons -
First, a stereo signal is meant to be produced from two speakers. Multi channel stereo has all speakers largely producing the same sounds which will result in interference between the speakers such that you get a comb filtering effect in your room (it is not bad if you want low-level background music to fill your room at a party without having two speakers be loud - but not good for critical listening at volume).
Second, this is actually a situation where the amount of power required is considerable because the speakers are all playing roughly the same sounds at the same time. For example, if the kick drum is in the center of the stage, the right and left speakers will have that kick at the same time and for multi-channel stereo, every speaker will play it at the same time. Thus you have a spike in amp demand on all 7(?)/9(?) speakers at the same time. This could tax your AVR for headroom. If you are listening to HT in a normal HT surround setup, what you will hear is the kick coming from the front speakers and the ambient echo coming from the surround speakers a few milliseconds later, so the amp is not being confronted will a sudden pulse on all speakers at the exact same moment.

 

[PENG]

I have the Denon 4300 powering a 7.2.2 Klipsch RP setup and I’m very happy. For movies I typically listen between -15db - -7db and the Klipsch don’t break a sweat. Prior to the 4300 I had a Marantz 7009 and felt it lacked oomph even though they had almost identical power.

The SR7009 and X4300H likely have the same or very similar amp section and power supplies. The X4300H has better DACs but that does not explain the "lacked oomph.." You did say "felt.." so that's probably just that. I installed a SR7009 a few years ago in a large room and it's able to drive a 5.1 Monitor Audio Silver series that are rated 4 ohms and 90 dB/2.83V/1m.

 

[RTG]

The SR7009 and X4300H likely have the same or very similar amp section and power supplies. The X4300H has better DACs but that does not explain the "lacked oomph.." You did say "felt.." so that's probably just that. I installed a SR7009 a few years ago in a large room and it's able to drive a 5.1 Monitor Audio Silver series that are rated 4 ohms and 90 dB/2.83V/1m.

Yeah I knew they were similar but the 4300 has a more forceful low end and more sparkle on the top end. It’s the first thing I noticed when I installed it. I did use the Flat curve on both. Much happier with the Denon paired with my RP’s.

 

[PENG]

Which speakers that I mentioned is a 6500 a big request for, and this isn’t a rhetorical question.

I am sure he meant the Monitor Audio Silver and KEF R series, because you have already told us

I know even the 5200 is overkill for the klipsch power wise

The thing is, those Klipsch RF82ii and RC62ii have much higher sensitivity specs than the MA Silver and KEF Rs. Depending on the model you choose, they may need 5 to 10X more power than the Klipsch speakers need to give you the same sound pressure level, but it may still not be a problem if you sit close enough to them in a not too large room and/or you don't listen to cinema loud spl. The bottom line is, without the information the linked calculator needs, no one can give you a definitive answer.

 

[PENG]

Yeah I knew they were similar but the 4300 has a more forceful low end and more sparkle on the top end. It’s the first thing I noticed when I installed it. I did use the Flat curve on both. Much happier with the Denon paired with my RP’s.

Thank you for the clarification. With Audyssey engaged, all bets are off. If both were calibrated in exactly the same way such as mic positions, and everything including yourself are in the exact same locations then there may not be as much a difference, otherwise it is better to compare amps in pure direct mode.

 

[RTG]

Thank you for the clarification. With Audyssey engaged, all bets are off. If both were calibrated in exactly the same way such as mic positions, and everything including yourself are in the exact same locations then there may not be as much a difference, otherwise it is better to compare amps in pure direct mode.

Yeah for sure. My room is pretty much identical to when I had the Marantz. The difference isn’t substantial but enough to notice a difference. I was felt the Marantz was more musical or warm with less low end. For my needs the Denon works better especially paired with my current speakers.

 

[the machine]

I am sure he meant the Monitor Audio Silver and KEF R series, because you have already told us

The thing is, those Klipsch RF82ii and RC62ii have much higher sensitivity specs than the MA Silver and KEF Rs. Depending on the model you choose, they may need 5 to 10X more power than the Klipsch speakers need to give you the same sound pressure level, but it may still not be a problem if you sit close enough to them in a not too large room and/or you don't listen to cinema loud spl. The bottom line is, without the information the linked calculator needs, no one can give you a definitive answer.

Thanks again to everyone for their input. I just want to circle back around on this because I want to make sure I am not doing a disservice to myself here. My amp needs to be upgraded because I can not stream 4k from my blu ray through the 5200.

I unfortunately can't give exact dimensions on the room, because I soon will be buying a new house (also why I need to upgrade ASAP because once the new mortgage kicks in, all audio bets are off). If I had to give a rough estimate of the room size it would be 12x25x8. The seating positions will be roughly 8 feet from the speakers. The rears will sit at 10 feet or so from the screen.

I'm attaching some photos, sorry for the blurriness of them as they are screen shots from a video I took when we did a walkthrough of the house we are looking at buying. As you can see, the room is split by the beams. Couch will sit in front of the beams that split the area, with the TV and speakers against the long wall in the first photo. So the space behind the rear speakers is roughly the same as the space where the HT will be.

I now have SVS Ultra Towers (en route), SVS Ultra Center, SVS Ultra Bookshelves, SVS SB 12NSD, with the plan to upgrade the sub, possibly 2 subs, and either add another set of bookshelves or bipole for either 7.1 or 7.2, and 2 SVS Prime elevation (if I find it is easy to install in this ceiling).

So the question is, how do we feel about the Marantz SR7012 to power this system? I currently do not listen to super loud levels as I have young kids and my current setup is in our living room in a small home. On my 5200 our listening level is 45-50 out of 100, with no Audessey correction ran or any dB levels changed(I have had to hard restart the amp so many times from Bluetooth/internet radio freezing that I got fed up with running Audessey). It is as if I opened the box and plugged the speakers into the amp and just watched from there. Going forward when watching movies I expect to have it at a much louder level depending on the movie. I wouldn't say cinema level but I can't say for sure. I'm considering the 7012 because it is on a serious discount, and if I spend the 875 for that rather than 1500 from the x6500, I could have an extra 625 to put towards subs (sell the NSD get 2 PB1000 or 2000).

So long story short, 7012 yay or nay?

Thanks again for all your help and for reading this long winded post.